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  1. #21
    ragz's Avatar
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    Re: Vikings offense finally finds way out of stacked box

    "StillPurple" wrote:
    When did I say it is always good to run play action ? I merely was saying, we need to do it "often enough". Of course, there are situations when you don't do it.

    One situation where you do run it is in the red zone. Bill Walsh always said this. He said, when the defense has its back to the endzone, it is way too easy for linebackers to just run at the running backs (there is nothing behind them in terms of space to make them worry). So Walsh's solution was to run play action. It generally works, too. And yet, I constantly see most NFL teams, when they get down to 2nd and goal from the 4, run straight at the "teeth" of the defense, and it generally doesn't work. When they run play action, they almost always get single or zero coverage.

    This "let's win on the line and just knock them back" stuff also mostly fails, because they just add linebackers and then it is your 6 or 7 offensive blockers against their 7 or 8 or 9. But throwing works, and call it finesse or whatever you want, but that is what the 49ers did and they have 4 rings (or is it 5 ?).
    you know what else we do alot of which doesnt make any sense based on that theory, is run screen passes inside the 20.
    if walsh believed as you say he spoke, the linebackers are not going to drop into coverage, they are still keying on the running back and that is why screens are not too effective inside the 20.
    to be honest about 1 for every 20 screens we run are effective so why should in the redzone be different.
    but to me this is again an adjustment the coach has to make.
    no one is respecting your pass, or wrs, so screens are not gonna be effective for us, and they haven't cuz no one is gonna be fooled or scared that you might pass downfield.
    if 8 guys are in the box and reading running back all the way, then the screen is dead.
    i mean most of our screens just turn out to be balls thrown into the ground cuz nothing is there.
    this is a big part of the wco, but you have to establish the other parts of your passing game for those things to work.
    "self improvement's masturbation.
    now self destruction" that's enlightenment

  2. #22
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    Re: Vikings offense finally finds way out of stacked box

    There are proven ways to counter the pressure we have been facing on the LOS, we just have not done any of them well.

    In the WCO (KAO) , the way that you are supposed to attack the defense is with short passes that rely on acute timing between the QB and the receivers( either the WR,TE or the RB)
    as the QB throws to a spot in the field where he anticipates the WR to be. This works because the defenders cannot react fast enough to get to the ball until it is caught and when executed right the play often leads to big gains.


    The problem that we have had is that there has never been that type of timing between our QB's and WR's and also the line has never gotten to the point where they have been able to successfully pass block long enough to be able to provide the time for that timing to develop. And to top it off, on the times when everything else seems to have fallen into place, the Wr's drop the damn ball.

    So what it looks like to me is that they have gone away from the shorter timing routes much of the time and have made a decision to try to stretch the field vertically under Gus. I believe with the personnel we have, that this is what they should be doing and have said it for 2 years. It may take a few more games but I think that the longer passes will start to happen more frequently and that the result will be the running game will improve because there will not be as much pressure at the LOS.

    It is sad that it has taken the staff this long to see that they need to run the offense in this way but hopefully it is sinking in. If they do not continue to push the ball downfield the running game will not look good by years end.

  3. #23
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    Re: Vikings offense finally finds way out of stacked box

    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    There are proven ways to counter the pressure we have been facing on the LOS, we just have not done any of them well.

    In the WCO (KAO) , the way that you are supposed to attack the defense is with short passes that rely on acute timing between the QB and the receivers( either the WR,TE or the RB)
    as the QB throws to a spot in the field where he anticipates the WR to be. This works because the defenders cannot react fast enough to get to the ball until it is caught and when executed right the play often leads to big gains.


    The problem that we have had is that there has never been that type of timing between our QB's and WR's and also the line has never gotten to the point where they have been able to successfully pass block long enough to be able to provide the time for that timing to develop. And to top it off, on the times when everything else seems to have fallen into place, the Wr's drop the gol 'darnit ball.

    So what it looks like to me is that they have gone away from the shorter timing routes much of the time and have made a decision to try to stretch the field vertically under Gus. I believe with the personnel we have, that this is what they should be doing and have said it for 2 years. It may take a few more games but I think that the longer passes will start to happen more frequently and that the result will be the running game will improve because there will not be as much pressure at the LOS.

    It is sad that it has taken the staff this long to see that they need to run the offense in this way but hopefully it is sinking in. If they do not continue to push the ball downfield the running game will not look good by years end.
    very true.
    but i would also contend that the offensive line should not have to pass block that long with a short passing game, but the plays haven't been there.
    and even when timing has been there, particularly when jackson was in there wrs did not have separation so you saw a handful of defenders knocking balls down or being right on the wr.
    i think this has happened cuz corners are playing us at the line of scrimmage and not giving up the cushions for those easy short gains we see hit on us.
    and i also think cuz the linebackers are keying on run so much and are not fearful of the passes over them the are in the lanes of a lot of the short passes we wanna throw.
    the thing thats aggravating about this is that its been going on for a while. its not like this is all new stuff.
    but the things you said are also a very big part of it too, and if you combine it it makes for one of the more sorry offenses of recent years.
    "self improvement's masturbation.
    now self destruction" that's enlightenment

  4. #24
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    Re: Vikings offense finally finds way out of stacked box

    "ragz" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    There are proven ways to counter the pressure we have been facing on the LOS, we just have not done any of them well.

    In the WCO (KAO) , the way that you are supposed to attack the defense is with short passes that rely on acute timing between the QB and the receivers( either the WR,TE or the RB)
    as the QB throws to a spot in the field where he anticipates the WR to be. This works because the defenders cannot react fast enough to get to the ball until it is caught and when executed right the play often leads to big gains.


    The problem that we have had is that there has never been that type of timing between our QB's and WR's and also the line has never gotten to the point where they have been able to successfully pass block long enough to be able to provide the time for that timing to develop. And to top it off, on the times when everything else seems to have fallen into place, the Wr's drop the gol 'darnit ball.

    So what it looks like to me is that they have gone away from the shorter timing routes much of the time and have made a decision to try to stretch the field vertically under Gus. I believe with the personnel we have, that this is what they should be doing and have said it for 2 years. It may take a few more games but I think that the longer passes will start to happen more frequently and that the result will be the running game will improve because there will not be as much pressure at the LOS.

    It is sad that it has taken the staff this long to see that they need to run the offense in this way but hopefully it is sinking in. If they do not continue to push the ball downfield the running game will not look good by years end.
    very true.
    but i would also contend that the offensive line should not have to pass block that long with a short passing game, but the plays haven't been there.
    and even when timing has been there, particularly when jackson was in there wrs did not have separation so you saw a handful of defenders knocking balls down or being right on the wr.
    i think this has happened cuz corners are playing us at the line of scrimmage and not giving up the cushions for those easy short gains we see hit on us.
    and i also think cuz the linebackers are keying on run so much and are not fearful of the passes over them the are in the lanes of a lot of the short passes we wanna throw.
    the thing thats aggravating about this is that its been going on for a while. its not like this is all new stuff.
    but the things you said are also a very big part of it too, and if you combine it it makes for one of the more sorry offenses of recent years.
    I am not going to argue your points, but with the WCO, we should still be completing passes even with defenders in close coverage. Actually the close coverage should work to our advantage because once the WR makes the break and the ball is delivered they should be behind the WR and in a worse position to make the tackle. There are also the "Rub" or pick routes across the middle that can give the necessary separation. Plus if they are playing tight to the line, they are more vulnerable to pump fakes and double moves that can exploit them deep.

    And for the line, they shouldn't have to block that long for sure, but face it, most of last year the QB was having pressure even before he got to the 3rd step of his drop. That is way too soon. compare that to what the Packers has in their offense where Brett had several seconds and had a great year. No single part was the problem, it was systematic across the board and all areas shared in the blame but mostly I feel the personnel was wrong for the system.

  5. #25
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    Re: Vikings offense finally finds way out of stacked box

    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "ragz" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    There are proven ways to counter the pressure we have been facing on the LOS, we just have not done any of them well.

    In the WCO (KAO) , the way that you are supposed to attack the defense is with short passes that rely on acute timing between the QB and the receivers( either the WR,TE or the RB)
    as the QB throws to a spot in the field where he anticipates the WR to be. This works because the defenders cannot react fast enough to get to the ball until it is caught and when executed right the play often leads to big gains.


    The problem that we have had is that there has never been that type of timing between our QB's and WR's and also the line has never gotten to the point where they have been able to successfully pass block long enough to be able to provide the time for that timing to develop. And to top it off, on the times when everything else seems to have fallen into place, the Wr's drop the gol 'darnit ball.

    So what it looks like to me is that they have gone away from the shorter timing routes much of the time and have made a decision to try to stretch the field vertically under Gus. I believe with the personnel we have, that this is what they should be doing and have said it for 2 years. It may take a few more games but I think that the longer passes will start to happen more frequently and that the result will be the running game will improve because there will not be as much pressure at the LOS.

    It is sad that it has taken the staff this long to see that they need to run the offense in this way but hopefully it is sinking in. If they do not continue to push the ball downfield the running game will not look good by years end.
    very true.
    but i would also contend that the offensive line should not have to pass block that long with a short passing game, but the plays haven't been there.
    and even when timing has been there, particularly when jackson was in there wrs did not have separation so you saw a handful of defenders knocking balls down or being right on the wr.
    i think this has happened cuz corners are playing us at the line of scrimmage and not giving up the cushions for those easy short gains we see hit on us.
    and i also think cuz the linebackers are keying on run so much and are not fearful of the passes over them the are in the lanes of a lot of the short passes we wanna throw.
    the thing thats aggravating about this is that its been going on for a while. its not like this is all new stuff.
    but the things you said are also a very big part of it too, and if you combine it it makes for one of the more sorry offenses of recent years.
    I am not going to argue your points, but with the WCO, we should still be completing passes even with defenders in close coverage. Actually the close coverage should work to our advantage because once the WR makes the break and the ball is delivered they should be behind the WR and in a worse position to make the tackle. There are also the "Rub" or pick routes across the middle that can give the necessary separation. Plus if they are playing tight to the line, they are more vulnerable to pump fakes and double moves that can exploit them deep.

    And for the line, they shouldn't have to block that long for sure, but face it, most of last year the QB was having pressure even before he got to the 3rd step of his drop. That is way too soon. compare that to what the Packers has in their offense where Brett had several seconds and had a great year. No single part was the problem, it was systematic across the board and all areas shared in the blame but mostly I feel the personnel was wrong for the system.
    yah, or the system wrong for the personnel so make some changes.
    i hear you on the pass routes, but we dont see it you know.
    you dont see alot of the wrs having a step with a corner behind him.
    alot of times the corner is actually getting his hand in on the ball.
    or alot of those pick plays where one guy is standing wide open with some room to run.
    and we definitely have not seen alot of pump fake and double moves.
    so it is a part of the wco, but i haven't seen that much of all these things being attempted, let alone executed.
    "self improvement's masturbation.
    now self destruction" that's enlightenment

  6. #26
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    Re: Vikings offense finally finds way out of stacked box

    "VikingMike" wrote:
    "Chazz" wrote:
    "ItalianStallion" wrote:
    "SharperImage" wrote:
    What genius thought of the double post route on the Berrian TD.. i know childress wife told him.. theres no way bevel and chilly is that smart.
    Either somebody screwed up that play, or it was a horrible design.
    Why would you want to run both patterns in the same area?...
    AA had to of run the wrong route. But with Childress as HC I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

    According to BB, he (BB) ran the wrong route and shouldn't have been there, but he saw the ball and went after it.
    Makes you wonder how often that happens on the Vikings O verses other offenses.
    Their has obviously been a problem with the QB/WR chemistry for years on this team.
    Berrian had the first 100 yd game for a WR in who knows how long.
    That is pathetic.
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  7. #27
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    Re: Vikings offense finally finds way out of stacked box

    El underdog.

  8. #28
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    Re: Vikings offense finally finds way out of stacked box

    "patistheman" wrote:
    When we do run play action it is darn close to ineffective.
    The RB is always a yard or a couple away from the QB during they fake.
    Most of our fakes aren't fooling anybody.
    When the Saints ran play action on Monday night there were many times I thought Brees had handed the ball off, but it was just good execution of the fake handoff.
    At the moment I don't remember anytime in recent games where we had a fake that I thought the ball had been handed off(I know it has happened I just don't remember the last time I have seen it).
    I don't know if its coaching or just the way the plays are designed but it is something I believe needs to be fixed to improve our play action passes.

    Also on another note I noticed on Monday that when Tahi is in the backfield it seems to me he sits back in his stance more on pass plays than on run plays.
    Has anybody else noticed that or is it just me?
    If its not just me I'm sure defenses pick up on that right away.
    Thats a good point about Tahi. i noticed his stance but didnt look close enough at it between pass or run plays. i will keep my eyes open.

  9. #29
    grpape is offline Asst. Coach
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    Re: Vikings offense finally finds way out of stacked box

    "PurplePeopleEaters" wrote:
    "VikingMike" wrote:
    "Chazz" wrote:
    "ItalianStallion" wrote:
    "SharperImage" wrote:
    What genius thought of the double post route on the Berrian TD.. i know childress wife told him.. theres no way bevel and chilly is that smart.
    Either somebody screwed up that play, or it was a horrible design.
    Why would you want to run both patterns in the same area?...
    AA had to of run the wrong route. But with Childress as HC I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

    According to BB, he (BB) ran the wrong route and shouldn't have been there, but he saw the ball and went after it.
    Yep. It looked Challenged Hillbilly Lover'd but Berrian made a pretty nice adjustment in his route to the ball. It wasn't a well advised throw by Frerotte but it worked out for the best. I guess I'm not complaining.
    After watching the game again, both AA and BB had single coverage, and had their defenders beat. The fact that BB ran the wrong route, brought his defender into the picture. AA saw BB coming and pulled up for a second, a very heads up play. If AA keeps running his route without BB in the picture, the ball is right there. Either way, it was a good throw by Gus.

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