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  1. #61
    tastywaves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    And the "Who's tired of Ponder" project started last year. A very good start by Ponder was enough to quiet the critics at the beginning of the season, but he has sucked it up enough lately to have them out in force again.

    Whether you like to believe it or not, there is no double standard - the fans here are just as critical of Ponder as they have been of TJack. Both of them were relatively supported (with some obvious exceptions) until about halfway through their second season.

    Maybe double standard doesn't know what you think it does. Or more likely, because you were pro-jackson and not so pro-Ponder, you noticed the attacks on Jackson more. But they are all still there.

    I will say the same thing now for Ponder as I did for Jackson - he needs to finish out the year. It is too early to tell if he is in his sophomore slump or if this is a trend. There are also other factors that are contributing to the lack of offensive performance, just like with TJack. But right now, the biggest problem is the QB play (just like with TJack), and that needs to improve ASAP for Ponder to be in the conversation next year.
    I think it's all coming down to the derogatory nickname with CMac and Singer. TJack was just too easy and Ponder doesn't lend itself as well. Trust me there are many on here that have put Ponder in the trash category and can't wait until the next QB lines up behind center. Singer is at least consistent in his support of keeping the young QB in the starting role, however, he doesn't put much credence in the player himself, just wants consistent treatment. CMac on the other hand is exactly what he's accusing everyone else of being. He was full of support for TJack, but has bailed on Ponder early on. Perhaps he's making a judgement on the player vs. some pre-defined notion of how long anyone deserves to stay in a starting role. Or perhaps he's just bitter that other's bailed on TJack before he did and now wants to get back at them for his perceived unfairness.

    Either you believe in a player or you don't, no double standards need apply.

  2. #62
    Reignman is offline Asst. Coach
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    No double standard here, I was excited for TJ early on, but ran out of patience with him. I'm going through the same thing now with Ponder. I'm losing my patience. At least TJ was consistent, consistently below average, but consistent. Ponder will have a great game that makes me think he's the franchise QB we've been looking for, then he'll have 2 or 3 games in a row where he looks like the worst QB I've ever seen.

    Here are the top 10 worst passing performances yardage wise this year, from QB's that have played most of the game. And if it weren't for prevent D in the Bucs game, Ponder would be on this list 4 times.

    yds (comp/attempts)
    1. 53 (7/19) Blaine Gabbert
    2. 58 (8/17) Christian Ponder
    3. 63 (11/22) Christian Ponder
    4. 82 (11/18) Mark Sanchez
    5. 92 (9/15) Matt Cassel
    6. 103 (13/29) Mark Sanchez
    7. 105 (14/28) Andy Dalton
    8. 110 (10/28) Josh Freeman
    9. 111 (16/26) Christian Ponder
    10. 118 (12/35) Brandon Weeden

  3. #63
    singersp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    And the "Who's tired of Ponder" project started last year. A very good start by Ponder was enough to quiet the critics at the beginning of the season, but he has sucked it up enough lately to have them out in force again.

    Whether you like to believe it or not, there is no double standard - the fans here are just as critical of Ponder as they have been of TJack. Both of them were relatively supported (with some obvious exceptions) until about halfway through their second season.

    Maybe double standard doesn't know what you think it does. Or more likely, because you were pro-jackson and not so pro-Ponder, you noticed the attacks on Jackson more. But they are all still there.

    I will say the same thing now for Ponder as I did for Jackson - he needs to finish out the year. It is too early to tell if he is in his sophomore slump or if this is a trend. There are also other factors that are contributing to the lack of offensive performance, just like with TJack. But right now, the biggest problem is the QB play (just like with TJack), and that needs to improve ASAP for Ponder to be in the conversation next year.
    I disagree with you at the level of animosity shown towards both QB's. IMO, it's like night & day. In fairness though, I was in the Philippines for almost all of December thru mid January, so I missed 4 or 5 of the last games of the season. Perhaps there were a lot of threads started for the sole purpose of bashing him, complete with charts depicting consistency on accuracy, QB rating etc. that I missed. Links?

    We used to see 3 to 4 of them started weekly during every game when Jackson did something the fans didn't like & there were several of them started this past offseason & in 2011 even though he hasn't been on our roster since 2010.

    Not that I want to, but I have yet to see 1 thread started for the sole purpose of bashing Ponder or 1 that states we should bench, trade or cut Ponder & start Webb or MBT.

    My opinion still is to let him play out the year and make a decision then.

    Fuck the idea of benching him & starting a stop gap QB like we did with Frerotte or Favre. It does absolutely nothing for the future of the franchise except delay the progress of obtaining a franchise QB & sets us back 2-3 years.

    Had we done that in 2008, we probably would have moved past Jackson & drafted a QB in 2009 rather than hanging on to him for an additional 2 years wondering if he will or will not pan out & not finding out due to lack of play.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by tastywaves View Post
    I think it's all coming down to the derogatory nickname with CMac and Singer. TJack was just too easy and Ponder doesn't lend itself as well.
    Nope, it has to do with quantity of it, rather than the cutesy names. If Jackson did something during a game that was unacceptable, chances were a thread was started about it immediately, rather than waiting & posting about it in the post game threads.

    If Ultra were still here, he could easily attest to the number of anti Jackson threads that were locked, moved or deleted since we drafted him.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    Nope, it has to do with quantity of it, rather than the cutesy names. If Jackson did something during a game that was unacceptable, chances were a thread was started about it immediately, rather than waiting & posting about it in the post game threads.

    If Ultra were still here, he could easily attest to the number of anti Jackson threads that were locked, moved or deleted since we drafted him.
    What this never happened with Ponder

    Ponder. Trade ,cut,or keep?

    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    3-1/2 games is enough time for some people here, even behind a poor O-Line.

  6. #66
    Caine's Avatar
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    *sigh* Here we go again. The whole "Jackson got no love, so all of you suck" posts are back. I'm so THRILLED to see them back...despite having REPEATEDLY debunked every single element of them over and over and over.

    Jackson got no love because he sucked. He got even LESS love because there was a bonafied starter sitting on the bench right behind him (Frerotte). And despite your revisionist spin on events of that period, Frerotte actually WON games and put us in place to make the play-offs...which Jackson promptly folded for...

    With Ponder, the ONLY thing Frazier has done right is not place a valid starter behind him. If there was one there, we'd be screaming for him to play instead of watching Ponder self-destruct game after game. Truth is, we simply don't have anyone on the bench who will do appreciably better.

    I'm sorry that the only way you will ever be satisfied is if we start burning effigies of our starting QB's in their 2nd week of play - then you'll probably complain that we haven't letter-bombed them yet, or contracted mafia "interventions"....

    Fact is, I'm not seeing a lot of Pro-Ponder comments out there. Instead, I see a lot of resignation due to the fact that we have ZERO options right now.

    Fact is, our HC needs to be released...and his ENTIRE staff needs to be jettisoned. After that, our owner needs to let our GM do what GM's do and find a new HC. Hopefully one with a clue. Then we get to look forward to 3-5 years of "REBUILD"...which will only be sped along if we actually trade away our current talent (Allen and Peterson) and have people in place who can DRAFT and COACH.....

    But you'd rather grind on and on about how unfair we all were to a QB who SUCKED!!!

    Way to focus on what's important...

    Caine

  7. #67
    singersp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikinggreg View Post
    What this never happened with Ponder

    Ponder. Trade ,cut,or keep?

    My comment was directed at fans who said Ponder hadn't had enough time, yet they were more than comfortable stating 3-1/2 games was ample time to judge other QB's.
    Last edited by singersp; 11-11-2012 at 06:10 AM.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post

    Fact is, I'm not seeing a lot of Pro-Ponder comments out there. Instead, I see a lot of resignation due to the fact that we have ZERO options right now.

    Caine
    So what are your thoughts on the Anti-Ponder comments? What are your thoughts on the Ponder Apologists comments? How many of our wins were a result of "bailouts"? How many wins were because of Ponder? How many were despite him due to stellar play of AD & Harvin? Focus on the QB situation & not the fact that we drafted a LT with our first pick or the coaches & their sraff & give us your personal opinion on Ponder.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  9. #69
    Caine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    So what are your thoughts on the Anti-Ponder comments? What are your thoughts on the Ponder Apologists comments? How many of our wins were a result of "bailouts"? How many wins were because of Ponder? How many were despite him due to stellar play of AD & Harvin? Focus on the QB situation & not the fact that we drafted a LT with our first pick or the coaches & their sraff & give us your personal opinion on Ponder.
    My PERSONAL opinion on Ponder is more limited because I don't have Sunday ticket and haven't been able to watch him as closely as I'd like - unlike when we had Jackson.

    That said, what I HAVE seen has left me less than impressed. He started the season strong, and has faded as time passed.

    Where he is COMPLETELY different from Jackson is the fact that Ponder takes the game on his shoulders in most cases. He didn't versus Arizona - that was the Defense - but in almost every other game, he is a significant part of the result. Jackson simply never was. he was just along for the ride.

    But the fact remains that Ponder isn't getting it done, and he isn't showing growth - two elements which prompted me to turn against Jackson. Right now, I don't think Ponder is where he needs to be, nor do I think he's going to get there under this coaching staff.

    unlike Jackson, however, we don't have anyone else to put in. So we're stuck with Ponder. By default, that gives him another 7 games to "make-or-break". I don't realistically think our franchise can possibly believe itself to be in "win now" mode, so I also don't see us reaching for a vet to fill the position this time around.

    If Ponder doesn't right his woes SOON, I will one of the MANY clamoring for a replacement at that position for next season. But I also feel that without a change in the HC (and staff) position, no QB we place there will be successful.

    And I already want the Owners to stay the hell OUT of the Football process.

    Happy now?

    Caine

  10. #70
    drakkar is offline Rookie
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    *sigh* Here we go again. The whole "Jackson got no love, so all of you suck" posts are back. I'm so THRILLED to see them back...despite having REPEATEDLY debunked every single element of them over and over and over.

    Jackson got no love because he sucked. He got even LESS love because there was a bonafied starter sitting on the bench right behind him (Frerotte). And despite your revisionist spin on events of that period, Frerotte actually WON games and put us in place to make the play-offs...which Jackson promptly folded for...

    With Ponder, the ONLY thing Frazier has done right is not place a valid starter behind him. If there was one there, we'd be screaming for him to play instead of watching Ponder self-destruct game after game. Truth is, we simply don't have anyone on the bench who will do appreciably better.

    I'm sorry that the only way you will ever be satisfied is if we start burning effigies of our starting QB's in their 2nd week of play - then you'll probably complain that we haven't letter-bombed them yet, or contracted mafia "interventions"....

    Fact is, I'm not seeing a lot of Pro-Ponder comments out there. Instead, I see a lot of resignation due to the fact that we have ZERO options right now.

    Fact is, our HC needs to be released...and his ENTIRE staff needs to be jettisoned. After that, our owner needs to let our GM do what GM's do and find a new HC. Hopefully one with a clue. Then we get to look forward to 3-5 years of "REBUILD"...which will only be sped along if we actually trade away our current talent (Allen and Peterson) and have people in place who can DRAFT and COACH.....

    But you'd rather grind on and on about how unfair we all were to a QB who SUCKED!!!

    Way to focus on what's important...

    Caine

    So youre happy with keeping Spielman??

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