Vikings Must Stick With Ponder

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Originally Posted by drakkar

So youre happy with keeping Spielman??

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Yes.

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Originally Posted by Chazz

Yes.

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Me too.

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Originally Posted by NodakPaul

Me too.

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me three

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Originally Posted by Caine

My PERSONAL opinion on Ponder is more limited because I don't have Sunday ticket and haven't been able to watch him as closely as I'd like - unlike when we had Jackson.

That said, what I HAVE seen has left me less than impressed. He started the season strong, and has faded as time passed.

Where he is COMPLETELY different from Jackson is the fact that Ponder takes the game on his shoulders in most cases. He didn't versus Arizona - that was the Defense - but in almost every other game, he is a significant part of the result. Jackson simply never was. he was just along for the ride.

But the fact remains that Ponder isn't getting it done, and he isn't showing growth - two elements which prompted me to turn against Jackson. Right now, I don't think Ponder is where he needs to be, nor do I think he's going to get there under this coaching staff.

unlike Jackson, however, we don't have anyone else to put in. So we're stuck with Ponder. By default, that gives him another 7 games to "make-or-break". I don't realistically think our franchise can possibly believe itself to be in "win now" mode, so I also don't see us reaching for a vet to fill the position this time around.

If Ponder doesn't right his woes SOON, I will one of the MANY clamoring for a replacement at that position for next season. But I also feel that without a change in the HC (and staff) position, no QB we place there will be successful.

And I already want the Owners to stay the hell OUT of the Football process.

Happy now?

Caine

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That's a fair assessment. The one thing I noticed about Ponder too, which was in his first or 2nd preseason game a year ago was that he did take better control of the team than Jackson did. I made the comment back then that he reminded me of Kramer in that respect.

The one thing I take exception to from your first post is that you feel the only reason fans weren't calling for the backup to start is because Frazier didn't have a bonafide starter on the bench like he did with Jackson (Frerotte).

What happened though, that's exactly what they did. They were calling for Bollinger to start & when he got his chance after Jackson got injured & failed, they were calling for Holcomb. That was a full season before Frerotte was even a Viking.

Even after they signed him in 2008, I don't believe there was anyone here who called Frerotte a bonafide starter. The talk about the Frerotte signing was that once again, for a 2nd year in a row, Childress failed to bring in a legitimate starter to challenge Jackson for the starting job. I believe you were a part of that group. I don't recall you contradicting them & stating that Childress did indeed bring in a bonafide starter to challenge him for the job.

Whether we have one now or not is immaterial IMO. Once again I will take the stance to let the QB play out the year & go from there rather than bench him & wait until the following year to see if he improves or the year after that depending on what they do in the offseason as far as a starting QB is concerned.

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Originally Posted by drakkar

So youre happy with keeping Spielman??

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Honestly, I see Spielman as the least of our problems right now. He inherited a HC that he didn't select, and he's been hamstrung by an owner (and his entire family) that wants to make football decisions....which should be Spielman's job.

So, honestly, we have no idea how good or bad Spielman is or will be because he hasn't been ALLOWED to DO his job.

Zygi, mark, and Leonard need to NOT be involved in the football end of things. They hired their guy to do that, it's time to let him. IF they do (which I STRONGLY doubt they will), he needs to jettison Frazier and the rest of the staff and START OVER.

Until Spielman is actually allowed to DO his job, I don't feel we can adequately judge him on it.

Caine

What is the statue of limitations for talking about an EX-Vikings QB in current threads? I vote each member can resurrect the name of our previous backup/starter/backup only once per month... :D

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Originally Posted by singersp

That's a fair assessment. The one thing I noticed about Ponder too, which was in his first or 2nd preseason game a year ago was that he did take better control of the team than Jackson did. I made the comment back then that he reminded me of Kramer in that respect.

The one thing I take exception to from your first post is that you feel the only reason fans weren't calling for the backup to start is because Frazier didn't have a bonafide starter on the bench like he did with Jackson (Frerotte).

What happened though, that's exactly what they did. They were calling for Bollinger to start & when he got his chance after Jackson got injured & failed, they were calling for Holcomb. That was a full season before Frerotte was even a Viking.

Even after they signed him in 2008, I don't believe there was anyone here who called Frerotte a bonafide starter. The talk about the Frerotte signing was that once again, for a 2nd year in a row, Childress failed to bring in a legitimate starter to challenge Jackson for the starting job. I believe you were a part of that group. I don't recall you contradicting them & stating that Childress did indeed bring in a bonafide starter to challenge him for the job.

Whether we have one now or not is immaterial IMO. Once again I will take the stance to let the QB play out the year & go from there rather than bench him & wait until the following year to see if he improves or the year after that depending on what they do in the offseason as far as a starting QB is concerned.

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At the start of 2007, I was one of the LOUDEST saying they should NOT start Jackson. My reason was that they needed time to develop him - since he was such a RAW prospect. I was (figuratively) shouted down on these boards by people who claimed he needed field time to develop and wouldn't do it on the bench. You were one of those arguing for field time.

When Jackson got "hurt" in '07, we went with Holcomb...the guy i wanted us to stat anyway. IMO at the time, we weren't going anywhere anyway, why not develop Jackson and spend a year under a guy we weren't going to go forward with (Holcomb). Jackson was then held out versus GB...under odd circumstances. And, the TRUTH was, Jackson wasn't winning games for us, Peterson was. The Defense was. Jackson was simply along for the ride.

And he NEVER progressed.

Holcomb and Brooks Bollinger were every bit as effective STATISTICALLY (in fact, they were MORE effective), but we lost their games because the D faded or AP didn't light it up, or both. Then Jackson would come in, AP would destroy a Defense, and Jackson got the credit.

But he never got the BLAME from his "fan base". I heard lots of excuses about why he failed, but I never saw any of the "apologists" actually admit that maybe the fault was Jackson (Until Marrdro was forced to by a lost beer bet).

But you are right, I was one of those railing against the lack of viable competition at the QB spot. I didn't see Jackson progressing, and I didn't see Chiller bringing in anyone with a legit shot at being the future (until Favre...I was all for that, but I wanted a rookie that year too so we had one to develop...Chiller screwed that pooch). Even frerotte was a joke when he was brought in, but the fact that that "joke" had Jackson supporters spend an entire season trying to prove that Jackson was better than a washed-up Gus Frerotte...and they couldn't successfully do it...was the most obvious sign that Jackson was done.

Moving forward, we don't even have a Frerotte on the roster. We have a project, and project, and a project. Ponder played well versus Detroit, but I need to see more consistency before I get on that bandwagon. He needs to win when AP doesn't show up strong.

Caine

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Originally Posted by NodakPaul

What is the statue of limitations for talking about an EX-Vikings QB in current threads? I vote each member can resurrect the name of our previous backup/starter/backup only once per month... :D

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What kind of statues are you looking at?

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Originally Posted by Caine

What kind of statues are you looking at?

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hahahaha. I mean "statute of limitations". Stupid Auto Correct.