Thread: Vikings may impose new fan fees

Originally Posted by NodakPaul

I don't think game day costs are going to skyrocket - in a small market that already struggles to fill the stadium, raising every day costs would be a huge financial mistake. Plus, the operating revenue of the stadium isn't tied to the private contribution - that is one of the reasons for the stadium authority.

I'll disagree with you here too, Paul, depending on your definition of "skyrocket". If you don't think that ticket prices won't go up across the board by 20-25% right away, I think you are being naive'.

I don't see anything wrong with the PSLs. Am I a season ticket holder? No. But, the season ticket holders (who end up paying for the PSLs) can look at it like an investment. Over the course of time, say 10 years, they can end up selling "their" seats most likely for a profit. Seems like a no brainer for a season ticket holder. If not, stop your season tickets and buy single game tickets. Just my two cents.

Originally Posted by NodakPaul

There is a difference between being happy with PSLs and understanding their need.

As a season ticket holder I don't exactly relish the idea of spending a few thousand dollars just to renew the seats that I have had for almost a decade. Especially now that we are trying to conserve money with the wife going back to school.

But I also understand that they need to raise revenue for the private contribution. And because the revenue from ticket sales are shared in the NFL, simply raising ticket prices won't do it. PSLs are one of the few ways that the owner can pass along a part of the cost to the fans who actually attend the games regularly.

And before someone pipes in with the response that the Wilfs are making millions from the Vikings without PSLs, keep in mind that they are still going to be spending more than half a BILLION dollars on a stadium that they WILL NOT OWN and will have to lease. Even if all 50,000 season ticket seats are renewed with PSLs averaging $2000, we are looking at $100 million in PSL revenue tops. The Wilfs are still throwing a pretty big chunk of change at the stadium.

Very well stated. Thank God for the Wilfs. We finally have great owners that are committed to this team and the great state of Minnesota. Yes they wanted help on the stadium by the state and the people, but this will benefit a large majority of the state too.

I'm pretty sure the team will offer to finance the PSL. So rather than pay the full $1,000 per seat up front you can pay an extra $100 for 10 years, or something like that.
Ultimately they can only charge what the market will bear, if the cost is too high people won't go. The last thing they want is to have empty seats.

Originally Posted by NodakPaul

Even if all 50,000 season ticket seats are renewed with PSLs averaging $2000, we are looking at $100 million in PSL revenue tops.

And if season tickets are averaging $50/seat, the average person who was paying $1,000 for two season seats, will now have to fork out $5,000 for those same equivalent seats.

If he keeps the season tickets for 10 years, it still ends up costing him $14,000 or $70 each for a $50 seat, $280 of which is for preseason games. If he keeps them for 20 years, $60 a seat for a $50 seat, $240 of which is for preseason games.

Yes, I get it that the PSL's can be re-sold, but c'mon, how easy is that going to be? If there was a waiting line for people to buy season tickets like there is in Green Bay, then yes maybe they can sell them. Truth is, I can't name a time in Vikings history that there was ever a waiting line for season tickets. Only the primo seats stand a chance of being re-sold. Getting the full PSL price back out of them is a different story.

The more likely scenario is going to be that the season ticket PSL's will end up being vacated. Given the economy the way it is, fans may not be able to renew their season tickets due to the economy, financial problems, divorce or whatever. With season tickets not being high in demand, the stadium not selling out & single game tickets easy to get, owners will probably not be able to sell them & may either have to take a huge loss on them or vacate them all together. Their window of time to sell them, could be very short. If they are vacated, the Vikings will get to sell them again for full PSL price & eventual sell those same two PSL's again for another $2,000.

I know I along with several other fans who used to be able to afford season tickets, will not be able to afford the PSL's & therefore not be buying them.

I'll have to resort to buying tickets on eBay again & with the stadium not selling out, should have no problem buying them below face value without having to pay PSL fees or paying full price for preseason tickets.

One thing you also need to remember is that the PSL's aren't necessarily implemented to pay for the stadium itself. They were devised as a way for owners to make money ( which is something they should do and are entitled to) and build their wealth, not to pay for the building itself.

If you want some sort of idea of what to expect as far as ticket prices go, then go to Forbes.com and look up the NFL franchise valuation articles. They have a great breakdown of the seating capacities, ticket prices, stadium costs and demographics. That data can give you a general idea of what to expect. Right now I believe the average ticket price is about 78 dollars. Looking at the stadiums in Dallas, Indy, and NY I would expect that our average ticket price will be in the ballpark of 160 dollars, not including and PSL costs. That is a pretty big jump.

Obviously they will have some lower priced tickets in the upper areas but for every dollar they reduce the cost of an upper level ticket to keep the price manageable, they need to raise the cost of a better seat by a dollar to make up the revenue lost.

Originally Posted by Purple Floyd

Well, you may be right but I don't think you are. The price of everything from parking to hot dogs (look for Cheboygan hot dogs to be the official dog since Julie Rosen owns them) to beer to tickets will need to go up dramatically to pay the costs of the stadium. If not, then where will the money come from? I understand pull tabs will contribute but they will need to have remarkable sales to put a dent in the cost.

Operating expenses are covered by operating revenue, such as hot dogs and beer. Parking is independent of the stadium and is mostly private anyway. This is the same pattern as the Metrodome. The price of the stadium is paid for via tax revenue, and operating profit is retained by the stadium authority, not put back into the general fund.

Now if you are arguing that operating expenses, such as staff, cooling, maintanence, etc will be higher, I will agree there. And the price of concessions and tours will probably rise in accordance. But no, I do not expect them to skyrocket, and no, they will not be (can not be) used to repay any part of the stadium construction.

Originally Posted by purplepat

I'll disagree with you to a point, Paul. I'd venture to guess that virtually ALL of the Vikings $427M share will come from the fans pockets and none from Wilf's personal fortune. You may rightly argue that he'll pay "his share" from the profits from the new stadium...but it still doesn't change the fact that higher ticket prices, parking, concessions, and probably PSLs that will generate those profits will come straight out of our pockets and not really his.

I understand what you are saying, but raising ticket prices on standard seats will not generate profit for the Vikings. The NFL has a revenue sharing plan among teams for standard tickets and tv rights. The only seats that generate revenue directly for the Vikings are club seats and suites. This was one of the driving reasons that the Vikings needed a new stadium - because the lack of club seats and suites did not allow them to have a competitive revenue. Parking is not owned by the Vikings, now or with the new stadium. The limited parking that DOES exist on the metrodome site is owned by the MSFC. The tailgating lots are leased by the Vikings. The rest of the parking is privately owned. And concessions are controlled by the MFSC now, and will be by the stadium authority with the new stadium. So raising prices for tickets, parking, or concessions will NOT help the Wilfs pay for any of the private contribution for the stadium. So that just leaves PSLs from your list... You might be interested to know though that the state is allowed to charge specific event taxes on tickets and concessions that WILL be used to pay for part of the state's contribution.

Originally Posted by purplepat

The question is, would fans rather pay a portion of those costs up front in the form of a PSL, or just pay even higher ticket prices over a longer period of time? Will PSL holders get some additional benefit other than having the privilege of paying for season tickets, such as the ability to buy tickets for those seats for any event the new stadium might have? And why shouldn't single game ticket buyers share the pain/costs of the new stadium through the price of the tickets they buy?

All great questions, and those are much more relevant to the PSL debate. Would fans rather pay a portion of those costs up front or just higher ticket prices? History shows us that teams with a long history of high ticket demand (i.e. Packers) can generate more revenue by simply raising ticket prices. But other areas, such as St Louis, were not able to sustain sales with higher ticket prices, and turned to PSLs instead. In a smaller market like Minnesota, higher ticket prices would be a tougher sell IMHO.

Usually PSL holders do get some additional privileges, such as first buying rights on some of the other events in the stadium, but that will depend on the wording of the lease. I expect there to be something.

And the single game fans will be helping to pay for the stadium... but more for the public contribution via event taxes instead of the private one.

Originally Posted by purplepat

I'd rather not have PSLs for the fact that if the cost of Wilf's share is tied up completely in ticket/parking/concessions prices, that keeps pressure on the owners to keep the team competitive so that people will continue to buy tickets. If we are forced to invest in PSLs and the team stinks, our PSL investment can lose significant value with no recourse on our part (unlike stockholders who can persuade the Board of Directors to fire a CEO). And tying up "our investment" in higher ticket/parking/concession prices spreads the cost to all patrons buying tickets for the game, not just season ticket holders.

But the Wilfs share is never tied up in ticket/parking/concessions as I stated above. The Wilfs main source of game day income comes from club seats and suites. And believe me, there is pressure to field a competitive team when you are trying to sell club seats for $2500 each.

The last thing to look at if the commitment that comes with PSLs. History shows us that PSLs have two main effects on season ticket sales:

1) New sales are slower. This is because of the additional commitment the buyer has to make in terms of a PSL.

2) Owners are more reluctant to give up their season tickets. Right now if I choose to no longer be a season ticket holder, I simply don't renew. Those tickets go back into the pool for the Vikings who will continue to try and sell them. With PSLs, if I do that I lose my investment with the PSL. Instead I can try and sell my PSLs to someone else. I could make or lose money on the deal, usually depending on how the team is doing. But the point is that those tickets would still be SOLD. The Vikings aren't losing any season ticket sales. This is a pretty big deal in a smaller market.

I would rather not have PSLs either. I would much rather the Wilfs just pony up the entire private contribution of the stadium. But I also know that is not very feasible. Whether we like it or not, PSLs have the economic history of being the most successful funding engine for projects like this.

Originally Posted by NodakPaul

I understand what you are saying, but raising ticket prices on standard seats will not generate profit for the Vikings. The NFL has a revenue sharing plan among teams for standard tickets and tv rights. The only seats that generate revenue directly for the Vikings are club seats and suites. This was one of the driving reasons that the Vikings needed a new stadium - because the lack of club seats and suites did not allow them to have a competitive revenue. Parking is not owned by the Vikings, now or with the new stadium. The limited parking that DOES exist on the metrodome site is owned by the MSFC. The tailgating lots are leased by the Vikings. The rest of the parking is privately owned. And concessions are controlled by the MFSC now, and will be by the stadium authority with the new stadium. So raising prices for tickets, parking, or concessions will NOT help the Wilfs pay for any of the private contribution for the stadium. So that just leaves PSLs from your list... You might be interested to know though that the state is allowed to charge specific event taxes on tickets and concessions that WILL be used to pay for part of the state's contribution.

One thing you are forgetting is the "new stadium effect" For an example, I direct you to Arizona. Prior to University of Phoenix stadium being built, the Cards were much in the same boat. They weren't having great attendence, not making a ton of money in a mediocre stadium. Now, the way they financed that stadium is FAR better, and the stadium was far cheaper, we really dropped the ball on that, but that's another story for another day.

Point is, since that stadium was built even until now, they have been having much improved attendence, even though the product on the field wasn't appreciably better right away. With more demand, that means parking lots can up their prices. I know it's not the team's call, but if you had a lot near the new stadium, and you knew people would pay what it costs to watch, wouldn't you try and get the most you could?

I fully expect prices will go up. Including the fact that the Vikings don't have their own parking like some other stadiums, it's still much cheaper to attend a game right now than alot of other stadiums. I expect that will change. No more $15 stub hub tickets. No more $7 parking.

All great questions, and those are much more relevant to the PSL debate. Would fans rather pay a portion of those costs up front or just higher ticket prices? History shows us that teams with a long history of high ticket demand (i.e. Packers) can generate more revenue by simply raising ticket prices. But other areas, such as St Louis, were not able to sustain sales with higher ticket prices, and turned to PSLs instead. In a smaller market like Minnesota, higher ticket prices would be a tougher sell IMHO.

Depends. Comparatively, Minneapolis doesn't have as many high roller season ticket fans. A LOT of blue collar working citizens go to these games. They don't just have a few thousand dollars to throw away on tickets. Yeah, there are those who won't have a problem affording it, but others can't. They need to structure it in a way where only the prime seats have PSLs. College kids who buy a single season ticket won't be buying that ticket anymore, they'll be on the resale market. Low income families who like to go to games every sunday in the cheap seats won't be doing that anymore. If you're fine with spending $170+ for a great ticket, then I suspect a PSL won't be as big an issue for you.

[quote]
Usually PSL holders do get some additional privileges, such as first buying rights on some of the other events in the stadium, but that will depend on the wording of the lease. I expect there to be something.

And the single game fans will be helping to pay for the stadium... but more for the public contribution via event taxes instead of the private one.

Not saying I disagree with the idea of PSLs, it's probably necessary to get the funding required, but I sure hope they structure it in a way that keeps games affordable. Minneapolis isn't New York.

Originally Posted by Purple Floyd

One thing you also need to remember is that the PSL's aren't necessarily implemented to pay for the stadium itself. They were devised as a way for owners to make money ( which is something they should do and are entitled to) and build their wealth, not to pay for the building itself.

In the case of the stadium, PSLs ARE implemented to pay for the stadium itself. It was written directly into the legislation. This is one of the reasons I think Dayton is off base, because the wording of the bill itself specifically lists PSLs as a way the Vikings can generate revenue for the private contribution.

Even if that wasn't the case, that is like saying that I don't have a job to necessarily pay for my house, I have a job to increase my wealth. Technically this is true - my job/business is not tied to my house in any binding way, but the fact is I still have to pay for my house. The Wilfs still have to put in half a billion dollars of private money - unless the revenue generated by PSLs exceeds this contribution, they aren't building any wealth.

Originally Posted by Purple Floyd

If you want some sort of idea of what to expect as far as ticket prices go, then go to Forbes.com and look up the NFL franchise valuation articles. They have a great breakdown of the seating capacities, ticket prices, stadium costs and demographics. That data can give you a general idea of what to expect. Right now I believe the average ticket price is about 78 dollars. Looking at the stadiums in Dallas, Indy, and NY I would expect that our average ticket price will be in the ballpark of 160 dollars, not including and PSL costs. That is a pretty big jump.

This is blatantly wrong, and making blanketing statements about ticket prices like this just serves to induce panic among fans. Not you specifically, as I know you are generally informed, but there is a lot of speculation out there about things like ticket prices, and it took me almost 2 seconds to find a list of the average ticket prices for all teams.
http://media.star-telegram.com/smedi...HczB.So.58.pdf
Right now the Jets and Patriots top the list at $117. Expensive, but a far cry from $160. Even the Cowboys with their billion dollar stadium and $100k PSLs only have an average ticket price of $110. And the average ticket price for the Cowboys, Jets, and Giants, didn't go up significantly with the opening of their stadiums. In fact the Giants average price went DOWN.

The Vikings average ticket price is $75.69, below the NFL average of $78.38.

The average price in Indy, with a brand new stadium and PSLs, is $85.34. I think this is much closer to what we can expect to see from the Vikings. Teams that charge more than that are all in large markets or high demand areas that can support higher average ticket prices. It has little or nothing to do with the price of the stadium because of the NFL revenue sharing plan. it has everything to do with the market, and the Minnesota market simply won't support average ticket prices higher than that.

Originally Posted by Purple Floyd

Obviously they will have some lower priced tickets in the upper areas but for every dollar they reduce the cost of an upper level ticket to keep the price manageable, they need to raise the cost of a better seat by a dollar to make up the revenue lost.

This is true, but is that such a problem? If the Vikings are still keeping average ticket prices down to a point that it is accessible by the general fan base (i.e. NOT "skyrocketing"), then I am all for it.