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  1. #11
    NodakPaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smegmavike View Post
    Having a hard time following the logic of this thread . First the debate seemed to be whether the Vikings were a young team, then it morphed into whether youth was responsible for mistakes and ultimately losses.
    Seems to me this team has achieved beyond expectation and this youth movement has given hope for a promising future.
    I agree. At some point a comment or comments were made along the line of "This is a young team and we are going to experience some ups and downs" and I guess some people take exception to that. The idea that players are often better and make fewer mistakes in their fourth year than they are in their first three makes sense to me - but hey, what do I know.

    To your point, I think you hit it dead on. We have exceeded any realistic expectations people had coming into this season, and with this young of a team it is only going to get better (oops, there I go again...).
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    And it's an EASY point to argue.

    1. More than half of the 53 man roster is on their 3rd year or longer in the league.

    2. There's a difference between experience ages of our 53 man roster & those of the men that start each & every week.

    Offensive starters;
    QB Christian Ponder
    RB Adrian Peterson
    FB Jerome Felton
    SE Jerome Simpson
    FL Percy Harvin
    TE Kyle Rudolph
    LT Matt Kalil
    LG Charlie Johnson
    C John Sullivan
    RG Brandon Fusco
    RT Phil Loadholt

    Defensive starters;
    LDE Brian Robison
    DT Kevin Williams
    NT Letroy Guion
    RDE Jared Allen
    SLB Chad Greenway
    MLB Jasper Brinkley
    WLB Erin Henderson
    LCB Antoine Winfield
    SS Mistral Raymond
    FS Harrison Smith
    RCB A.J. Jefferson

    Of the 11 offensive starters, only 3 of them have 2 years or less experience. 0 are rookies.
    Of the 11 defensive starters, only 3 of them have 2 years or less experience. 2 are rookies.

    So of the 22 starters, only 6 of them have 2 years or less experience. 2 of those are rookies. Only 5 of them see the field on any given play.

    And yet some fans will still argue that we lose games because we field a young team.
    Actually, four on offense are in their first or second year:
    Ponder, Rudolph, Fusco, and Kalil.
    Last edited by Randy Moss; 11-24-2012 at 09:18 PM.

  3. #13
    snowinapril's Avatar
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    We have a tendency to see what we want to see.

    Back on topic about Jenkins, I think that there are some free agent pick ups from the last few seasons that need to step up or step out. Simpson, Jenkins and Aromashadu are stand outs.

    From our roster, it definitely looks like we are trying to build from youngsters. If youngsters step up, it will allow us to get rid of some of these mediocre cast offs we picked up over the years.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Moss View Post
    Actually, four on offense are in their first or second year:
    Ponder, Rudolph, Fusco, and Kalil.
    I guess Wright can also be added to the list as the starter per ESPN with Harvin out again

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    I agree. At some point a comment or comments were made along the line of "This is a young team and we are going to experience some ups and downs" and I guess some people take exception to that. The idea that players are often better and make fewer mistakes in their fourth year than they are in their first three makes sense to me - but hey, what do I know.

    To your point, I think you hit it dead on. We have exceeded any realistic expectations people had coming into this season, and with this young of a team it is only going to get better (oops, there I go again...).
    Sigh No, it wasn't simply "This is a young team and we are going to experience some ups and downs" that an exception was taken too, but thanks once again for attempting to make it sound like it was.

    We've had the debate before. Fans accepting poor play based on youth or attributing losses to youth.

    Somehow all those rookies & 1st year players sitting on the bench & seeing little if any playtime, if any are impacting the outcome of the game. They are afterall, part of that young 53 man roster.

    No one said players in their 1st thru 3rd years are often better and make fewer mistakes in their fourth year, but hey thanks again for twisting what was said & trying to make people believe I did.

    I said rookies & veterans alike make mistakes & listed all the penalties made by our players as one example of mistakes. Do you see the rookies & 2nd year players making the bulk of those penalties?

    One of the most glaring mistakes I've seen our team (the ones that actually play each week) is missed tackles by our defense. Most of those are by players who have been playing for 3 or more years.

    The idea that 3rd year players & up shouldn't miss tackles makes sense to me. I expect that out of 2nd year players.

    Perhaps I missed them, but I don't see a ton of mistakes being made by Kalil, Rudolph, Walsh or Smith, so who is creating these mistakes that's attributed to youth?

    Haven't we won games due to that youth?

    There needs to be an understanding of what a young team is. Are people simply adding up the ages of the 53 man roster & dividing by 53?

    Are people simply adding up the years experience of the 53 man roster & dividing by 53?

    Do people expect fewer mistakes out of a 14 year vet than they do a 6 year vet because the 6 year vet is younger?

    At what point is a player no longer considered young & is considered a veteran that is not expected to make a lot of mistakes?

    Are the Vikings going to be worse next year due to the fact that we will inevitably be even younger than we are this year with the possibility of Winfield, Jenkins & K-Will being gone (34 years experience) being gone & being replaced by 2013 draft picks or this years rookies or 2nd year players?

    At what point are we no longer considered a young team, if ever? We will always be trying to add several players thru the draft & watch as the older players are released or leave during FA.

    Seems to me the "This is a young team and we are going to experience some ups and downs" has been valid & will continue to be valid for years to come.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikinggreg View Post
    I guess Wright can also be added to the list as the starter per ESPN with Harvin out again
    Oh God no! He's only a young rookie & we have a more experienced veteran in our arsenal named Aromashodu, who's in his 4th year & less likely to make mistakes! Wright's rookie mistakes cost us dearly last time he played.

    sarcasm off

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  7. #17
    NodakPaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    Oh God no! He's only a young rookie & we have a more experienced veteran in our arsenal named Aromashodu, who's in his 4th year & less likely to make mistakes! Wright's rookie mistakes cost us dearly last time he played.

    sarcasm off
    So you expect every rookie to go out and perform like a veteran? So why do you say that we need to let Ponder finish out the year before judging him? And if youth and inexperience means nothing, than we should have started Wright week 1.

    Stop pretending that youth doesn't have an impact. It isn't the ONLY thing that has an impact, but it is still a part. NOBODY attributes a loss to youth. NOBODY. Find me one person who said it and I will concede the point that they are off base. The rest of us understand the fact that youth DOES make an impact - especially when 1/4 of your STARTERS are in their first or second year.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    So you expect every rookie to go out and perform like a veteran? So why do you say that we need to let Ponder finish out the year before judging him?
    I don't expect every rookie to play mistake free football. I do expect them to play more mistake free in their 2nd year, but I'm also not naive enough to believe that veterans don't make mistakes. Each person is unique. A rookie doesn't typically get thrown into the starting role over a veteran if he is making a lot of mistakes.

    As far as stating I believe Ponder should finish out the year, I have, multiple times, including again last night in the game thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    And if youth and inexperience means nothing, than we should have started Wright week 1.
    We should be starting with our best players, whether they are veterans or youth. Why the brain trust didn't try Wright earlier, I can't answer that. Especially when Simpson was serving his suspension.

    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    Stop pretending that youth doesn't have an impact. It isn't the ONLY thing that has an impact, but it is still a part. NOBODY attributes a loss to youth. NOBODY. Find me one person who said it and I will concede the point that they are off base. The rest of us understand the fact that youth DOES make an impact - especially when 1/4 of your STARTERS are in their first or second year.
    I'm not pretending youth doesn't have an impact. I'm saying both youth & veterans make mistakes, yet some people tend to believe we lose based on that youth, not realizing that veterans cause loses with their mistakes also. Some of our youth are playing at a high level and making less mistakes than some of our veterans are.

    Stop pretending youth always makes more mistakes than veterans. I'm not going to go digging for posts where people claim we've lost because we're young. Go read some of the post game threads where we lost & you'll see them. Start with last night's thread where someone mentioned youth again.

    I'd like for you to try & prove to me that in yesterday's loss, more mistakes were made by our first & second year players that contributed to the loss, than by are veterans.

    Again, of those 1st & 2nd year players that are starters, who would you single out as making a lot of mistakes that contribute to our losses?

    Of those 1st & 2nd year players that are starters, who would you single out as not making a lot of mistakes?
    Last edited by singersp; 11-26-2012 at 06:01 AM.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  9. #19
    MaxVike's Avatar
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    As Vikings grow, Jenkins must go

    I heard from a friend in the business that Wright wasn't playing earlier because he "couldn't grasp the play book." Ok, I have a solution, try teaching him fewer plays and putting him on the field when those are called.

    Oh we'll, he's in now and has earned a starting spot IMHO.

    Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent
    ----------------------------------------------
    As a matter of fact, I do know

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