09-18-2012, 05:55 PM #11
09-18-2012, 09:07 PM #12Rookie
- Join Date
- May 2009
09-18-2012, 09:24 PM #13
Outside looking in perspective.. his dealt hand hasn't exactly been one to win directly with. Reality is that the Viking had a window to win it, got damn close. They rolled the dice with the Allen Trade, Favre and honestly experienced some bad luck with injuries to promising players like Rice.
They are a deficient team in terms of offensive skill players beyond Harvin and AP; Ponder and Rudolph will develop. They have a couple of chips on the edges for the offensive line, but honestly they are still works in progress.
On defense, the Williams wall couldn't hold up forever.. they have some good individual talent on defense but again are playing youth again. Allen and EJ are still very good players.. but scheme around them. Personally and I know this sounds anti progression, but I would try and move Allen while he still holds premium value. Continue to reload via the draft, develop and within the time Ponder is ready to hit his prime, you will have a core of players coming into their prime and can make another run.
The division is going to see the Bears flame out soon, and the Lions I think had a chance to grab ahold of consistency, but their coach is going to work against them. That leaves the Packers whom are going to hit a crossroads soon with a bunch of talent and will need to make some decisions. A mini rebuild as you will..
I think you window is about two years from now.. the 2014 season.. why not acquire as much talent to mature at once?
In other words, I think Frazier is a quality NFL coach.. growing pains in which inconsistency is prevalent, but in my opinion that is part of a rebuilt. We the Packers are just a few seasons removed from that.. MM looked like a joke. Building a winner in this league takes time.. I think Frazier should be afforded more.
Recovering from Chilly is not an overnight deal.. my opinion.
09-18-2012, 09:44 PM #14
Nice post pack93z. I don't agree that trading Allen is a good idea. Our problem has been in the secondary for quite a while. Without Allen no one would even bother to run the ball against us. I am all for giving Frazier a chance this year but we had better end up with a better than 3 and 13 record or I think he is history. We just lost a game to the lowest ranked team in the NFL (the Colts). That is not a good beginning.
09-18-2012, 10:09 PM #15
09-19-2012, 07:57 AM #16
On Allen.. I agree you take the hit this year.. probably next as well.. but with a green secondary behind it is the defense or even the team ready to compete?
Moving Allen would garner a good return I would imagine, to me, he his the best pass rusher in the game. He should return a premium.. picks and maybe a player or two. Basically repairing the hole in acquiring talent that you paid to get Allen for the run.
My point is that this team is a couple years away.. moving him for youth that can help when the team is ready again.
09-19-2012, 10:50 AM #17
Even if you do not have talent you can see some characteristics of a good coach. The Stl. coach Fisher comes to mind, even when he has bad teams they are competitive. His teams make very few mistakes and rarely beat themselves. Frazier coached teams seemed to be always outcoached, outdisciplined (if that is a word) and outmatched even when they have the more talented team.
Very disturbing if you are looking to a coach to teach YOUNG players how to win. Our players looked confused at times on D, have stupid penalties at the most vital point in a game and run a predictable, vanilla offense.
IMO not a good resume for a head coach but as I said we should give Frazier this year and the next to see what he can do with the young talent on this team.
And by the way we do have some talent on this team everyone feels we are light years away from the great teams in this league but we have some kids that can play. Look at these players Harvin, Peterson, Roudolph, Kalil, Allen, Robison, Greenway, Williams. All those players are really talented and have a shot to be pro bowlers and some alreay are probowlers.
Some up and coming players like Ponder, Sullivan, Smith, Fusco and Simpson. And I really like Audie Cole I wish he would get chance next year to see what he can do. I realize this year is a learning year but I think he can be a stud.
IMO if we have a good draft next year (2013) we could make it back to the playoffs and who knows what can happen then.
There s only two things stopping you - fear and common sense!! The Truth you CAN"T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!!!!
09-19-2012, 02:57 PM #18Asst. Coach
- Join Date
- Sep 2008
And ofc Packer fans would want us to keep Frazier. That's 2 more easy wins for them every year lol.
09-19-2012, 07:11 PM #19
My only clarification would be that I consider the root source of our problems to be the Owner. I think that Zygi & family (Yes, Mark and Leonard, I'm looking at you) need to stay in the owners box, smile at the cameras, and stay away from football decisions. They need to let Spielman run the show for better or worse.
Spielman needs to be evaluating Frazier with an "Eyes wide open" approach. Yes, we were in a talent pickle when Chiller was canned (He screwed us seven ways to Sunday), but Leslie probably wasn't the best option...just one that afforded (IMHO) the Wilfs the opportunity to remain involved on the football side of things (where they don't belong).
The question after that is, can Leslie Frazier actually make our team a worthwhile team again?
I have my doubts.
I was never big on him as a DC. I haven't been impressed by him as an HC. And that goes double for his OC.
But, again, it starts at the TOP.
Our team identity is confused by the "Who is in charge of what" question. We have too many people making too many decisions...and too many of them aren't capable or qualified to do so.
Until the top gets sorted out, the bottom will continue to struggle.
09-20-2012, 04:54 AM #20
i'm not gonna praise and sputter about Frazier merit or lack of..
I will say this though..
1. how can we judge a guy who's been around the league, around coaching staffs, and has experience at this level? why because we're experienced in watching the game infront of us?
2. What really has frazier done wrong? listened to his players? maybe picked guys around him that arn't TOP NOTCH? really? Tomlin was our DC.. who went to HC a team that was elite.. stayed elite.. and is kinda elite now? so is he an ELITE coach? show me where Frazier was handed the reigns of a SB team and then destroyed it.. or.. show me how he took an ok team and destroyed it (detroit) ..
3. SlickRick sure we like to bash him for his drafts.. a lot of people LoL'd him for drafting a kicker.. people ranted and ranted.. but.. damn.. Walsh is showing.. hey.. that was a smart choice.. what if we didn't have him? what if someone later in the round said.. we need a kicker.. where would we be on Special teams? would we be avg inside the 20? longwell was above avg in his end.. and I think Walsh was an immidiate step up.. and now we have him for years to come.. we're building a team as the coaching staff has said over and over.. Through the draft, and picking up possible players through FA. does that mean in 2 drafts we have a new team? how many starters do you really think a team can make out of 1 draft? 3-5? IF they pan out.. as i see it after 4 years we'll have 15-20 drafted players starting for us.. and i bet we'll have a few 4-6 round gems in there, why because we have a good scouting dept, communication around the room, and people doing their jobs..
so really? are we ranting because.. we're not winning it all? why should we be? what hasn't Frazier done? or is it people still have Chilly taste in their mouth and ohh man.. anything connected to him has to go? really? Im not the biggest fan of Frazier.. but i'm no where near quallified to say.. This guy doesn't know his jock from a playbook.. does he seem like the hard nosed coach Grant was? well no.. Do I think there is another Grant out there? maybe.. but we have Frazier, he's working withen our system to build a team with SlickRick.
to me.. it's hard to watch because I look so forward to seeing the Vikes play.. be it 5 am or 8 pm.. and i've had to go to work after watching all nite pissed we lost, tired.. maybe i'd ranted about this or that. but that still does that mean I understand more then the coaching staff does. and so far this year I see improvement.. sure who can't improve after a loosing season.. (well how many did detroit have?????)
I give them their reign.. as the worst thing we could do right now is change philosophy's. a new coach + staff would be just that. if everyone gives ponder a year or two to get to the level he should be.. why not give the staff? now.. that doesn't not mean i think moosegrave is the OC we need.. but i'm !#$%!# sure he's better then Tice (i need a hug kuz we lost) .. end of this year there will be probably some restructuring.. another off season #2 for Frazier and staff.. and entering his 3rd year will be a do or die. (do being.. show us that there is hope for a future). until then. let the beat writers write as that's their job.. stir up people to read their bla bla bla, and make their money bashing/praising as they see fit.
"We tried to stick with it, but there was a point where we were beating our head against a wall," Seattle Coach Mora talking about running at the Williams Wall