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  1. #11
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    Re: Vikings face potential talent drain this offseason

    Quote Originally Posted by "AngloVike" #1090013
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1090008
    I think that the KAO has skewed peoples perception of Rice due to the fact that the WR's have been so piss poor that any production looks fantastic.

    In 4 seasons Rice has 146 catches for a little over 2100 yards and 18 TD's. His best single season was 83 catches for 1300 yards and 8 td's.

    Now that is decent production for sure, but not the kind of numbers I would throw the checkbook at considering the other 3 years were very very pedestrian.

    If he had tied a few years together with the sort of production that he had in 2009 then I would feel different. I like Rice and hope he does well. If the Vikings do sign him I will be happy because I have always like the way he plays when healthy, but if the team sees a risk and decides to go another direction it won't bother me either.
    thats the bottom line, Rice has been the only WR on the team but even his figures don't warrant he his agent will think he is worth. If he goes then we may be able to get two average receivers in his place, at least that will give the QB two options instead of just the one - so the offense will have improved immediately :laugh:
    you mean like camarillo, berrian, lewis? If his agent thinks he should be paid like one of the top 5 in the league, then I agree. He hasn't proven that kind of worth beyond one season. If they are more realistic and just want him in the top half, it is worth the gamble.
    Why must you defend everything this FO does....to the point of making your self look like a yes man.

  2. #12
    mountainviking's Avatar
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    Re: Vikings face potential talent drain this offseason

    Have ya'all seen this?

    http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/2010_Vikings_Review_Antoine_Winfield_grades_out_hi ghest_on_defense012611

    Pretty in depth review of all three aspects of our team. Some of the individual plays mentioned brought back good, and, some bad, memories as I relived the play in my head. I felt like he was a lil harsh on a few backups who were forced into duty and played OK given their experience levels with the team, but for the most part, spot on.

    This season was derailed by injuries immediately after the BF got his big raise. Then there was more drama, more distractions, and more injuries. It is one thing if you have a few random injuries at multiple spots, and quite another when you get a rash of them at any one (or 3) position(s). When your top 2 WRs, 2 of top 3 CBs and pretty much all three interior OL miss time, you are screwed no matter what team or how good your depth looks.

    Although solid vs. the run, it looks like our LBs aren't very good in coverage. Our DL is definitely in decline. Our depth at CB actually played pretty well considering how far down the depth chart we went...Allen and Walker had lower comp% against them than nearly anyone else on the team.

    The pressures allowed by our line is well documented on the offense page along with most of the rest of our failures. Really, to me, seems to prove Caine's point, many of these guys were on the way out anyway.

    We've got some tough decisions to make! Which positions do we resign our guys at, which do we look to the draft to improve, and which do we have the best chance of improving through FA!?!?? If/when we have a new CBA to work with!

    QB-duh! Need at least 1 vet and probably 1 young project too.
    OL-starters are signed, but we need depth at least.
    WR-got some talent in Harvin, but Rice could be gone and our depth behind those 2 is not impressive.
    RB-whew! Finally a position we're set at, but AP does need a new contract.
    TE-good enough for now, but could use an upgrade and Kleiny ain't getting any younger.

    DE-fat chance we sign Ray and Robison, Griffen is in trouble again...?
    DT-Pat isn't quite who he was, maybe our youth can get us through a year, but we're going to need something.
    LB-Greenway is staying! Probably should keep Leber too since we have so many other holes.
    CB-Looking good if Griff and Cook get healthy.
    S-haven't had a great one since...Joey Browner!?! Could get by, but really need an upgrade.
    Control the line, control the time, and give your D a chance to shine!!

    "Balance it on end and thats the third side of the coin!!" -wookiefoot

  3. #13
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    Re: Vikings face potential talent drain this offseason

    Quote Originally Posted by "mountainviking" #1090019
    Have ya'all seen this?

    http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/2010_Vikings_Review_Antoine_Winfield_grades_out_hi ghest_on_defense012611

    Pretty in depth review of all three aspects of our team. Some of the individual plays mentioned brought back good, and, some bad, memories as I relived the play in my head. I felt like he was a lil harsh on a few backups who were forced into duty and played OK given their experience levels with the team, but for the most part, spot on.

    This season was derailed by injuries immediately after the BF got his big raise. Then there was more drama, more distractions, and more injuries. It is one thing if you have a few random injuries at multiple spots, and quite another when you get a rash of them at any one (or 3) position(s). When your top 2 WRs, 2 of top 3 CBs and pretty much all three interior OL miss time, you are screwed no matter what team or how good your depth looks.

    Although solid vs. the run, it looks like our LBs aren't very good in coverage. Our DL is definitely in decline. Our depth at CB actually played pretty well considering how far down the depth chart we went...Allen and Walker had lower comp% against them than nearly anyone else on the team.

    The pressures allowed by our line is well documented on the offense page along with most of the rest of our failures. Really, to me, seems to prove Caine's point, many of these guys were on the way out anyway.

    We've got some tough decisions to make! Which positions do we resign our guys at, which do we look to the draft to improve, and which do we have the best chance of improving through FA!?!?? If/when we have a new CBA to work with!

    QB-duh! Need at least 1 vet and probably 1 young project too.
    OL-starters are signed, but we need depth at least.
    WR-got some talent in Harvin, but Rice could be gone and our depth behind those 2 is not impressive.
    RB-whew! Finally a position we're set at, but AP does need a new contract.
    TE-good enough for now, but could use an upgrade and Kleiny ain't getting any younger.

    DE-fat chance we sign Ray and Robison, Griffen is in trouble again...?
    DT-Pat isn't quite who he was, maybe our youth can get us through a year, but we're going to need something.
    LB-Greenway is staying! Probably should keep Leber too since we have so many other holes.
    CB-Looking good if Griff and Cook get healthy.
    S-haven't had a great one since...Joey Browner!?! Could get by, but really need an upgrade.
    Yeah, posted in the player analysis defense & ST thread a couple weeks ago.
    He also analyzed the offensive players and that can be found in the player analysis offense thread.
    “What takes a quarterback to the next level is not arm strength or mobility or any of that stuff. It’s the ability to play on critical downs. Manage third downs, or red zones or four-minute or two-minute situations"
    Dilfer

  4. #14
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Vikings face potential talent drain this offseason

    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1090003
    But these are all guys Chilly hand picked because they fit his "system" Had he not gotten canned they would have formed the team nucleus for a decade of KAO and AKD ( Ass kicking defense. Yeah, I just made that up)
    I hate to do the right wrong thing, but you are wrong, unless of course you still believe that the HC runs around doing everything and the scouting staff under Spielman has nothing to do or has no say in the players that are on the roster.

    If you do believe that, then, again, your wrong.

    I agree that we would not be losing any superstars, it is just sad to think we are at this point and that is a big chunk of the depth we have developed.
    Valid point, and something that our good friend Caine overlooks is that all teams are comprised of players that aren't "Superstars" but rather just complimentory players.

    Without those guys, you wouldn't have a team cause there is no way in hell the guy who funds the checkbook can go out and pay to have a superstar at every roster position.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  5. #15
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Vikings face potential talent drain this offseason

    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1089956
    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/02/21/offseason-priorities-minnesota-vikings/
    Placing the franchise tag on linebacker Chad Greenway was the first domino to drop for the Vikings this offseason.

    Keeping the rest of Minnesota’s key players will be a lot more difficult. Let’s take a look at their free agent priorities.

    We all knew the time would come for this to happen. It will be interested to see if the FO continues to spend in FA to fill holes or whether they decide to focus on stocking up on draft picks and rebuilding through youth they develop.
    Not all of us new this had to happen cause it didn't need to happen.

    As some yutz has been chanting with respect to the "Mass Exodus" he keeps saying could happen (long before this article came out), if the staff would have taken care of a few players last year, the impact would be pretty much negated this year and the staff could be focusing on getting deals done for players like AD this year.

    Instead, they took the cheap route, tendered guys who deserved to be treated better and now most of them are gonna reward the staff by going ahead and testing the FA market.

    and........regardless of what Caine thinks of some of those players, they will garner huge contracts and all the time spent developing them will be lost and another team will reap the benifits.

    Key in all of this is most of these players are still developing. Yes Caine, even after several years, most NFL players are still learning the game to some degree.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  6. #16
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Vikings face potential talent drain this offseason

    Quote Originally Posted by "midgensa" #1089959
    Might not be able to stockpile picks or sign the players.

    If these players take a mass exodus, what are we going to trade to stockpile picks?
    Players that are still under contract (not these guys) who might still have some value but won't be productive for very much longer (i.e. K-dubb, Berrian, hell, possibly even a cat like Webb).
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  7. #17
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    Re: Vikings face potential talent drain this offseason

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090025

    I hate to do the right wrong thing, but you are wrong, unless of course you still believe that the HC runs around doing everything and the scouting staff under Spielman has nothing to do or has no say in the players that are on the roster.

    If you do believe that, then, again, your wrong.e]
    Marty marty marty..

    You yourself were the sole voice of the "Chiller bringing in guys who fit his system" brigade.

    It's hard to sift through 45000 posts that date back 4 years but hey, if you want to debate the issue I just might take some time and dredge a few up.


    As to who made the calls- The scouts did bring in their evaluations but when it came to deciding who out of those that were scouted ultimately got
    on the team- Childress had the final say. It has been documented and hashed over too many times for me to spend time posting links on it.




    Valid point, and something that our good friend Caine overlooks is that all teams are comprised of players that aren't "Superstars" but rather just complimentory players.
    The point is that some on here believed and preached that Childress was building a team that had a strong nucleus and that would be competitive year over year while I contended that the talent we were bringing in was nothing more than a paper tiger. And a short term one at that.

    Without those guys, you wouldn't have a team cause there is no way in hell the guy who funds the checkbook can go out and pay to have a superstar at every roster position.
    You don't need superstars at every position. It helps to have a few at key positions but after that you need role players who can execute the offense and you have to have a coach who can adapt the game plan to account for players changing on the roster due to contracts, injury and age. That was not something the last group could do.

  8. #18
    mountainviking's Avatar
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    Re: Vikings face potential talent drain this offseason

    Right on...links to all 3 posted in opening paragraph too. I Kinda figured somebody on here had provided those links before...I know the PPO don't miss much! But, well worth a look, so worth a repost for those of us who hadn't come across them yet...?

    I guess I got distracted at home and posted before I came to a conclusion too. What I'm thinking is that, Yes, we are facing a potential talent drain, but that is kind of a "glass is half full" point of view.

    We've got some FAs we can likely keep at reasonable rates: Robison, Longwell, Leber, and ??? (Greenway tagged, a keeper!)

    At some point there will be a Free Agency. If we've done our scouting and are still willing to pay market price, (bidding could go up if after the draft thus limiting ways to fill holes!?) we should be able to sign 2-4 starters, and possibly upgrade some moderate priced depth too. There are apparently close to 500 potential FAs.

    That leaves about, maybe? 1/3 of our current FAs players to be replaced by the draft? If we can pull just a couple of guys who can push to start, this team could be surprisingly more competitive than expected!!

    SKOL VIKINGS!!!! GOOD LUCK ON AN AWESOME OFFSEASON!!!!

    B) :laugh: :woohoo:

    I guess my shades are always pretty durned purple!?!
    Control the line, control the time, and give your D a chance to shine!!

    "Balance it on end and thats the third side of the coin!!" -wookiefoot

  9. #19
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Vikings face potential talent drain this offseason

    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1090028
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090025

    I hate to do the right wrong thing, but you are wrong, unless of course you still believe that the HC runs around doing everything and the scouting staff under Spielman has nothing to do or has no say in the players that are on the roster.

    If you do believe that, then, again, your wrong.e]
    Marty marty marty..

    You yourself were the sole voice of the "Chiller bringing in guys who fit his system" brigade.

    It's hard to sift through 45000 posts that date back 4 years but hey, if you want to debate the issue I just might take some time and dredge a few up.


    As to who made the calls- The scouts did bring in their evaluations but when it came to deciding who out of those that were scouted ultimately got
    on the team- Childress had the final say. It has been documented and hashed over too many times for me to spend time posting links on it.



    Show me were I said the HC did anything by himself. In the end, I have always said that it is a total staff function. Nothing more, nothing less. Hell, in almost every instance I usually point out when someone says otherwise.

    And it is also well documented who actually runs the draft. It isn't the Chiller. Its Spielman and he, along with the coaches, approve several players at each position.

    In the end, it isn't like the Chiller ever said, I want this guy go get him. What the rack and stack process that Spielman follows is, I want one of the following 5 players. Get one of them.



    Valid point, and something that our good friend Caine overlooks is that all teams are comprised of players that aren't "Superstars" but rather just complimentory players.
    The point is that some on here believed and preached that Childress was building a team that had a strong nucleus and that would be competitive year over year while I contended that the talent we were bringing in was nothing more than a paper tiger. And a short term one at that.
    Barring the Childress word, I again, don't agree. I believe that the staff was, until they opted to go old, were building a team, mostly through the draft that was built to win over the long haul, and not just for today.

    Were they went wrong was when they quit signing vets that were coming off their first contract (i.e. Shanc) that most of you absolutely hated, cause you didn't know their name, and started trading picks for guys like Rosencopter and relying on has been like the Noodle.

    At that point, Yes, I will agree, the staff wasn't building for the future, but rather the now. Go back two years and look at my posts, you will see me harping on those signings for those very same reasons.

    Without those guys, you wouldn't have a team cause there is no way in hell the guy who funds the checkbook can go out and pay to have a superstar at every roster position.
    You don't need superstars at every position. It helps to have a few at key positions but after that you need role players who can execute the offense and you have to have a coach who can adapt the game plan to account for players changing on the roster due to contracts, injury and age. That was not something the last group could do.
    And yet 2009 happened. What the last coaching staff couldn't overcome was the rash of injuries and players not playing cause they were protecting themselves.

    For that, I blame the FO pukes, not the coaching staff. I blame the staff for not cutting players like the Noodle. Hell, he should have got rid of him when he axed PatsRandy.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  10. #20
    Caine's Avatar
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    Re: Vikings face potential talent drain this offseason

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090032
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1090028
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090025

    I hate to do the right wrong thing, but you are wrong, unless of course you still believe that the HC runs around doing everything and the scouting staff under Spielman has nothing to do or has no say in the players that are on the roster.

    If you do believe that, then, again, your wrong.e]
    Marty marty marty..

    You yourself were the sole voice of the "Chiller bringing in guys who fit his system" brigade.

    It's hard to sift through 45000 posts that date back 4 years but hey, if you want to debate the issue I just might take some time and dredge a few up.


    As to who made the calls- The scouts did bring in their evaluations but when it came to deciding who out of those that were scouted ultimately got
    on the team- Childress had the final say. It has been documented and hashed over too many times for me to spend time posting links on it.



    Show me were I said the HC did anything by himself. In the end, I have always said that it is a total staff function. Nothing more, nothing less. Hell, in almost every instance I usually point out when someone says otherwise.

    And it is also well documented who actually runs the draft. It isn't the Chiller. Its Spielman and he, along with the coaches, approve several players at each position.

    In the end, it isn't like the Chiller ever said, I want this guy go get him. What the rack and stack process that Spielman follows is, I want one of the following 5 players. Get one of them.



    Valid point, and something that our good friend Caine overlooks is that all teams are comprised of players that aren't "Superstars" but rather just complimentory players.
    The point is that some on here believed and preached that Childress was building a team that had a strong nucleus and that would be competitive year over year while I contended that the talent we were bringing in was nothing more than a paper tiger. And a short term one at that.
    Barring the Childress word, I again, don't agree. I believe that the staff was, until they opted to go old, were building a team, mostly through the draft that was built to win over the long haul, and not just for today.

    Were they went wrong was when they quit signing vets that were coming off their first contract (i.e. Shanc) that most of you absolutely hated, cause you didn't know their name, and started trading picks for guys like Rosencopter and relying on has been like the Noodle.

    At that point, Yes, I will agree, the staff wasn't building for the future, but rather the now. Go back two years and look at my posts, you will see me harping on those signings for those very same reasons.

    Without those guys, you wouldn't have a team cause there is no way in hell the guy who funds the checkbook can go out and pay to have a superstar at every roster position.
    You don't need superstars at every position. It helps to have a few at key positions but after that you need role players who can execute the offense and you have to have a coach who can adapt the game plan to account for players changing on the roster due to contracts, injury and age. That was not something the last group could do.
    And yet 2009 happened. What the last coaching staff couldn't overcome was the rash of injuries and players not playing cause they were protecting themselves.

    For that, I blame the FO pukes, not the coaching staff. I blame the staff for not cutting players like the Noodle. Hell, he should have got rid of him when he axed PatsRandy.
    Yet the FACT that he cut Moss - without any type of warning or planning - shows that Childress had a great deal of control over his roster. And it would be foolish to assume that that control didn't also extend to player acquisition.

    I know you love to try and mitigate Childress's stupidity by spreading the blame onto the Front Office, but all indications are that Childress had an unprecedented amount of control over the roster. He brought in who HE wanted, he got rid of whomever HE didn't want. Hell, he even flat out admitted to talking with Brett multiple times before BOTH seasons, so it wasn't like the FO just sat back and signed players for Brad to slot into the team.

    Bottom line, while the dynamic may have somewhat changed with teh firing of Chiller and the hirig of Frazier, I still remain completely convinced that CHILDRESS - not the "FO Pukes", as you like to call them - was far more responsible for our roster - and our subsequent roster woes - than any other individual in the organization.

    FWIW, anyone else notice how Marrdro likes to make it very clear which side he's disparaging by giving them insulting names? "Noodle", "PatsRandy", "Yutz fans", "FO Pukes".... It's an old PR trick to make the opponent appear to be less by demeaning them through name calling...often because you can't demean them in FACT.

    Caine

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