Thread: Unnamed Opponent Slams McKinnie, Other Vikings

jargomcfargo wrote:

Who was propagating that myth on here? :unsure:

Marrdro wrote:

By the way, other than the game were Whinny got injured and guys were shoved in there, our defense played better without him than they did with him.

meaning, in games where the backups coudl practice with the first team, they played better pass D, which simply isn't true.

i_bleed_purple wrote:

Marrdro wrote:

i_bleed_purple wrote:

12purplepride28 wrote:

Marrdro wrote:

By the way, other than the game were Whinny got injured and guys were shoved in there, our defense played better without him than they did with him.

woah woah woah, I can't agree with you there. Ya winfield is primarily a run first cornerback, which obviously isn't ideal, but you can't deny the intensity he brings. Just look at the bengals game from last year, it was the first game antoine was back from his injury, and you could tell he was excited to be back. Just some of the hits he dished out were amazing, and you could tell that it helped the defense as a whole shut down an normally potent bengals offense.

So yah, winfield is a great run defender, an average pass defender, but the veteran leadership and intensity he brings to our defense is one of those indefinable qualities that makes teams keep veterans around.

its partially true.

We gave up 385 yards in the air against the Ravens without Winfield
We also gave up 7.7ypc to Rice

I think our pass defense improved after a bit when Winny was gone, but our Run Defense really suffered. We couldn't stop the outside runs very well, and teams ran more.

We gave up 5.6 ypc on the ground vs. the Steelers without Winny

We gave up 287 yds and 3 TD"s vs. the packers
and 5.5 ypc to grant and Rodgers

Now that I look at it, our only good game without Winny really was the Steelers. We got toasted vs. ravens and packers.

Even Matt Stafford put up 224, 1 TD
and they rusehd for 4.2 ypc, 5.2 if you take away Maurice MOrris' pitiful carries.

Hasslebeck passed for 73% and 231 yards, but no TD`s. They didn`t try running much though.

Thats certainly not what I`d call playing `Better``

But you are looking at, mostly, Whinny's absence as being the blame for the increased run averages. I look at what happens in that Ravens game and see alot of runs that weren't to his side, even if he was in there.

As to the pass yardages, I can go and pull up games were he was in there when we got chewed up. Does that mean Whinny had a bad game or does it mean our DL didn't get pressure.

Kindof an apples and oranges thing on both counts if you ask me.

I'm not trying to prove winny's absence as being a blame for improved run game, just an observation I made.

What I'm pointing out is our pass defense did not improve with winny gone like you claim. In fact, quite the opposite.

From those games, we gave up an average of: 260.4yards in those 5 games, our average that year was 218.4 yards per game, including those 5, meaning if you don't include them, it was significantly better. I don't have the time or effort to go indepth with things like 3rd down %, etc.

But its certainly not better without Winny.

Nor do I expect you to use stats. Kindof silly to try to do it considering the scheme and how it gives up yards whoever is back there.

What I am talking about is coverage by the CB's and the handoffs between the S's. I saw improvement in that area and fewer big plays.

Again, my perception. If I thought I could prove it with stats I would have tried.

i_bleed_purple wrote:

jargomcfargo wrote:

Who was propagating that myth on here? :unsure:

Marrdro wrote:

By the way, other than the game were Whinny got injured and guys were shoved in there, our defense played better without him than they did with him.

meaning, in games where the backups coudl practice with the first team, they played better pass D, which simply isn't true.

Statistically, no. I would agree. But even back when Mac stepped in for Whinny, our defense appeared to flow better. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, we got better this year without him at getting off the field on 3rd downs more often.

Again, no way I can back up my claim with stats. The scheme doesn't support that.

Marrdro wrote:

i_bleed_purple wrote:

Marrdro wrote:

i_bleed_purple wrote:

12purplepride28 wrote:

Marrdro wrote:

By the way, other than the game were Whinny got injured and guys were shoved in there, our defense played better without him than they did with him.

woah woah woah, I can't agree with you there. Ya winfield is primarily a run first cornerback, which obviously isn't ideal, but you can't deny the intensity he brings. Just look at the bengals game from last year, it was the first game antoine was back from his injury, and you could tell he was excited to be back. Just some of the hits he dished out were amazing, and you could tell that it helped the defense as a whole shut down an normally potent bengals offense.

So yah, winfield is a great run defender, an average pass defender, but the veteran leadership and intensity he brings to our defense is one of those indefinable qualities that makes teams keep veterans around.

its partially true.

We gave up 385 yards in the air against the Ravens without Winfield
We also gave up 7.7ypc to Rice

I think our pass defense improved after a bit when Winny was gone, but our Run Defense really suffered. We couldn't stop the outside runs very well, and teams ran more.

We gave up 5.6 ypc on the ground vs. the Steelers without Winny

We gave up 287 yds and 3 TD"s vs. the packers
and 5.5 ypc to grant and Rodgers

Now that I look at it, our only good game without Winny really was the Steelers. We got toasted vs. ravens and packers.

Even Matt Stafford put up 224, 1 TD
and they rusehd for 4.2 ypc, 5.2 if you take away Maurice MOrris' pitiful carries.

Hasslebeck passed for 73% and 231 yards, but no TD`s. They didn`t try running much though.

Thats certainly not what I`d call playing `Better``

But you are looking at, mostly, Whinny's absence as being the blame for the increased run averages. I look at what happens in that Ravens game and see alot of runs that weren't to his side, even if he was in there.

As to the pass yardages, I can go and pull up games were he was in there when we got chewed up. Does that mean Whinny had a bad game or does it mean our DL didn't get pressure.

Kindof an apples and oranges thing on both counts if you ask me.

I'm not trying to prove winny's absence as being a blame for improved run game, just an observation I made.

What I'm pointing out is our pass defense did not improve with winny gone like you claim. In fact, quite the opposite.

From those games, we gave up an average of: 260.4yards in those 5 games, our average that year was 218.4 yards per game, including those 5, meaning if you don't include them, it was significantly better. I don't have the time or effort to go indepth with things like 3rd down %, etc.

But its certainly not better without Winny.

Nor do I expect you to use stats. Kindof silly to try to do it considering the scheme and how it gives up yards whoever is back there.

What I am talking about is coverage by the CB's and the handoffs between the S's. I saw improvement in that area and fewer big plays.

Again, my perception. If I thought I could prove it with stats I would have tried.

:huh:

fewer big plays? Not likely:

Ravens game: M.Clayton 32 yd. pass from J.Flacco (S.Hauschka kick) (7-75, 1:33)
D.Mason 12 yd. pass from J.Flacco (S.Hauschka kick) (3-73, 0:49)
Those were the TD's

(5:53) 5-J.Flacco pass deep right to 85-D.Mason pushed ob at BLT 35 for 27 yards (41-K.Paymah).
(:26) (Shotgun) 5-J.Flacco pass short left to 86-T.Heap pushed ob at MIN 35 for 22 yards (25-T.Johnson).
(:17) (Shotgun) 5-J.Flacco pass deep right to 85-D.Mason to MIN 12 for 23 yards (41-K.Paymah). Penalty on MIN-69-J.Allen, Defensive Offside, declined. (play later)
(4:43) 5-J.Flacco pass deep middle to 86-T.Heap to MIN 22 for 23 yards (20-M.Williams; 25-T.Johnson).
(9:44) (Shotgun) 5-J.Flacco pass deep middle to 15-K.Washington to BLT 45 for 28 yards (20-M.Williams). BLT-15-K.Washington was injured during the play. His return is Probable. Penalty on MIN-91-R.Edwards, Defensive Offside, declined.
(9:28) (Shotgun) 5-J.Flacco pass deep middle to 87-D.Williams to MIN 38 for 17 yards (22-B.Sapp). Minnesota challenged the pass completion ruling, and the play was Upheld. (Timeout #1.)
(5:32) 5-J.Flacco pass short right to 27-R.Rice to MIN 12 for 63 yards (25-T.Johnson).

last drive:
(1:45) (Shotgun) 5-J.Flacco pass short right to 27-R.Rice to BLT 46 for 13 yards (23-C.Griffin) [93-K.Williams].
(1:37) (Shotgun) 5-J.Flacco pass short middle to 15-K.Washington to MIN 41 for 13 yards (69-J.Allen).


Steelers:
M.Wallace 40 yd. pass from B.Roethlisberger (J.Reed kick) (8-91, 1:15)
(:49) (Shotgun) 7-B.Roethlisberger pass deep middle to 17-M.Wallace to MIN 40 for 22 yards (52-C.Greenway).
3rd and 5: (15:00) (Shotgun) 7-B.Roethlisberger pass short right to 10-S.Holmes to MIN 9 for 45 yards (69-J.Allen, 23-C.Griffin).




thats just two games. I haven't touched the Packers game yet, there were big plays there, and I don't recall the seahawks and Lionsa s well, and am not going to look it all up.

i_bleed_purple wrote:

Marrdro wrote:

i_bleed_purple wrote:

Marrdro wrote:

i_bleed_purple wrote:

12purplepride28 wrote:

Marrdro wrote:

By the way, other than the game were Whinny got injured and guys were shoved in there, our defense played better without him than they did with him.

woah woah woah, I can't agree with you there. Ya winfield is primarily a run first cornerback, which obviously isn't ideal, but you can't deny the intensity he brings. Just look at the bengals game from last year, it was the first game antoine was back from his injury, and you could tell he was excited to be back. Just some of the hits he dished out were amazing, and you could tell that it helped the defense as a whole shut down an normally potent bengals offense.

So yah, winfield is a great run defender, an average pass defender, but the veteran leadership and intensity he brings to our defense is one of those indefinable qualities that makes teams keep veterans around.

its partially true.

We gave up 385 yards in the air against the Ravens without Winfield
We also gave up 7.7ypc to Rice

I think our pass defense improved after a bit when Winny was gone, but our Run Defense really suffered. We couldn't stop the outside runs very well, and teams ran more.

We gave up 5.6 ypc on the ground vs. the Steelers without Winny

We gave up 287 yds and 3 TD"s vs. the packers
and 5.5 ypc to grant and Rodgers

Now that I look at it, our only good game without Winny really was the Steelers. We got toasted vs. ravens and packers.

Even Matt Stafford put up 224, 1 TD
and they rusehd for 4.2 ypc, 5.2 if you take away Maurice MOrris' pitiful carries.

Hasslebeck passed for 73% and 231 yards, but no TD`s. They didn`t try running much though.

Thats certainly not what I`d call playing `Better``

But you are looking at, mostly, Whinny's absence as being the blame for the increased run averages. I look at what happens in that Ravens game and see alot of runs that weren't to his side, even if he was in there.

As to the pass yardages, I can go and pull up games were he was in there when we got chewed up. Does that mean Whinny had a bad game or does it mean our DL didn't get pressure.

Kindof an apples and oranges thing on both counts if you ask me.

I'm not trying to prove winny's absence as being a blame for improved run game, just an observation I made.

What I'm pointing out is our pass defense did not improve with winny gone like you claim. In fact, quite the opposite.

From those games, we gave up an average of: 260.4yards in those 5 games, our average that year was 218.4 yards per game, including those 5, meaning if you don't include them, it was significantly better. I don't have the time or effort to go indepth with things like 3rd down %, etc.

But its certainly not better without Winny.

Nor do I expect you to use stats. Kindof silly to try to do it considering the scheme and how it gives up yards whoever is back there.

What I am talking about is coverage by the CB's and the handoffs between the S's. I saw improvement in that area and fewer big plays.

Again, my perception. If I thought I could prove it with stats I would have tried.

:huh:

fewer big plays? Not likely:

Ravens game: M.Clayton 32 yd. pass from J.Flacco (S.Hauschka kick) (7-75, 1:33)
D.Mason 12 yd. pass from J.Flacco (S.Hauschka kick) (3-73, 0:49)
Those were the TD's

(5:53) 5-J.Flacco pass deep right to 85-D.Mason pushed ob at BLT 35 for 27 yards (41-K.Paymah).
(:26) (Shotgun) 5-J.Flacco pass short left to 86-T.Heap pushed ob at MIN 35 for 22 yards (25-T.Johnson).
(:17) (Shotgun) 5-J.Flacco pass deep right to 85-D.Mason to MIN 12 for 23 yards (41-K.Paymah). Penalty on MIN-69-J.Allen, Defensive Offside, declined. (play later)
(4:43) 5-J.Flacco pass deep middle to 86-T.Heap to MIN 22 for 23 yards (20-M.Williams; 25-T.Johnson).
(9:44) (Shotgun) 5-J.Flacco pass deep middle to 15-K.Washington to BLT 45 for 28 yards (20-M.Williams). BLT-15-K.Washington was injured during the play. His return is Probable. Penalty on MIN-91-R.Edwards, Defensive Offside, declined.
(9:28) (Shotgun) 5-J.Flacco pass deep middle to 87-D.Williams to MIN 38 for 17 yards (22-B.Sapp). Minnesota challenged the pass completion ruling, and the play was Upheld. (Timeout #1.)
(5:32) 5-J.Flacco pass short right to 27-R.Rice to MIN 12 for 63 yards (25-T.Johnson).

last drive:
(1:45) (Shotgun) 5-J.Flacco pass short right to 27-R.Rice to BLT 46 for 13 yards (23-C.Griffin) [93-K.Williams].
(1:37) (Shotgun) 5-J.Flacco pass short middle to 15-K.Washington to MIN 41 for 13 yards (69-J.Allen).


Steelers:
M.Wallace 40 yd. pass from B.Roethlisberger (J.Reed kick) (8-91, 1:15)
(:49) (Shotgun) 7-B.Roethlisberger pass deep middle to 17-M.Wallace to MIN 40 for 22 yards (52-C.Greenway).
3rd and 5: (15:00) (Shotgun) 7-B.Roethlisberger pass short right to 10-S.Holmes to MIN 9 for 45 yards (69-J.Allen, 23-C.Griffin).




thats just two games. I haven't touched the Packers game yet, there were big plays there, and I don't recall the seahawks and Lionsa s well, and am not going to look it all up.

And I can go and pull big plays from when Whinny was in there.

Again, its how the defense flowed that I am talking about. Hard to quantify or prove with stats. If I were to try to do it, I would go to things (like I mentioned earlier) like 3 and outs, TOP, FG's instead of TDs ect.

Marrdro wrote:

12purplepride28 wrote:

Marrdro wrote:

By the way, other than the game were Whinny got injured and guys were shoved in there, our defense played better without him than they did with him.

woah woah woah, I can't agree with you there. Ya winfield is primarily a run first cornerback, which obviously isn't ideal, but you can't deny the intensity he brings. Just look at the bengals game from last year, it was the first game antoine was back from his injury, and you could tell he was excited to be back. Just some of the hits he dished out were amazing, and you could tell that it helped the defense as a whole shut down an normally potent bengals offense.

So yah, winfield is a great run defender, an average pass defender, but the veteran leadership and intensity he brings to our defense is one of those indefinable qualities that makes teams keep veterans around.

When I say better, I actually mean I thought they did better (in the pass protection area).

That doesn't mean I wouldn't want to see the whole cover 2 scrapped for a traditional "Press/Man" coverage system nor does it take away from the "intensity" that Whinny brings.

Again, most aren't gonna like it, but I believe by the end of the year we will see someone other than Whinny starting this year, even if he stays healthy.

My guess, the staff agree's with me mostly based on the clauses we saw in his contract.

So what I see you saying here is this is another one of those "exceptions" where stats don't tell the entire story. :P

ejmat wrote:

Marrdro wrote:

12purplepride28 wrote:

Marrdro wrote:

By the way, other than the game were Whinny got injured and guys were shoved in there, our defense played better without him than they did with him.

woah woah woah, I can't agree with you there. Ya winfield is primarily a run first cornerback, which obviously isn't ideal, but you can't deny the intensity he brings. Just look at the bengals game from last year, it was the first game antoine was back from his injury, and you could tell he was excited to be back. Just some of the hits he dished out were amazing, and you could tell that it helped the defense as a whole shut down an normally potent bengals offense.

So yah, winfield is a great run defender, an average pass defender, but the veteran leadership and intensity he brings to our defense is one of those indefinable qualities that makes teams keep veterans around.

When I say better, I actually mean I thought they did better (in the pass protection area).

That doesn't mean I wouldn't want to see the whole cover 2 scrapped for a traditional "Press/Man" coverage system nor does it take away from the "intensity" that Whinny brings.

Again, most aren't gonna like it, but I believe by the end of the year we will see someone other than Whinny starting this year, even if he stays healthy.

My guess, the staff agree's with me mostly based on the clauses we saw in his contract.

So what I see you saying here is this is another one of those "exceptions" where stats don't tell the entire story. :P

Yes my friend, as much as I hate to say it. Its also why I try to stay out of conversations about our secondary and Whinny.

Its a no win situation because I can't "Prove" what I am seeing.

Case in point, my good friend Jargo said that Whinny getting caught cheating was rare, when it fact I see it alot. Without actuall tape, its hard to make that case even though it happens more than most think.

Wildman made a recommendation last year, .....He said I should scan and post my game notes instead of retyping the same stuff in the "Rant threads". I might opt to do that this year.

Marrdro wrote:

my game notes

You sir, are watching football for all the wrong reasons.

i_bleed_purple wrote:

Marrdro wrote:

my game notes

You sir, are watching football for all the wrong reasons.

I actually use them at the end of the year when I do the roster analysis crap.

My response to Wildman was that if I did post them, no one could read them anyways as I have my own type of short hand. Mix that in with crappy hand writing and it probably wouldn't make much sense.

Still, I am thinking about developing a form and then keeping those forms forever. Typically Wildwoman eventually cleans and I loose all of them to here cleaning efforts.

If I put those forms in a binder, she wouldn't discard them.

IF I'm reading this right, Marrdro is claiming that the Defense without Winfield FELT more cohesive...is that accurate?

See, the trouble here is that "felt" is subjective. Marrdro FELT more comfortable in the performance of the Defense WITHOUT Winfield on the field...even though the statistics don't support his FEELINGS, they also don't completely invalidate them.

The fact is, I didn't notice a huge drop off in our performance defensively despite the loss of Winfield and Griffin. We didn't FEEL weaker...even though we may have statistically given up a bit more. My confidence level remained about teh same, despite the loss of our two starters.

And isn't that sort of an indictment of the level of our secondary? I have stated numerous times that I think our secondary sucks...the only thing that saves us is the play of the front 4...and when they falter, we don't do so well.

Bottom line, we need more production from our secondary. And honestly, as much as I personally like Winfield, I don't care WHO steps up and makes things happen back there as long as someone does.

Caine