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  1. #41
    i_bleed_purple's Avatar
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    Re:Unnamed Opponent Slams McKinnie, Other Vikings

    jargomcfargo wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    jargomcfargo wrote:
    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    jargomcfargo wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    Funny, in regards to sticking up for our lack of interceptions, etc. You are the first to claim that Cover 2 corner's primary responsibility are flat zones and Run Support, saying they aren't, and will never be shutdown corners.
    Talking about a Cover 2 CB not being a "Shut Down" corner is one thing, trying to say that I said that about flat zones and run support is another.

    Now its your turn, get me a quote
    You don't have to go far. Look in the post a few above this. Basically what I say all the time about Whinny.....

    A force at what? The run game? He's a CB. I want my CB's to defend the pass, not get caught cheating down on the run when they should be playing pass.
    Winfield caught cheating down on the run?
    That would be rare.
    Winfield doesn't get beat over the top very often because he gives up too much cushion.
    That's why he has issues as a cover corner.
    seems right. Winfield doesn't play bump and run very much. Where he excels, is by breaking off his coverage and filling in quickly to stop the carrier. He's got a knack for avoiding blockers and bringing down the ball carrier, both on defense and special teams. He can stay with his guy, unless they're exceptionally fast. He doesn't have the best ball skills though, but he' can make the tackle after the catch, which is another think you (Marrdro) Claim is so important for our corners.
    I agree. That's why I also believe he is the best DB on our team.
    Our issues are primarily at the safety position.
    Johnson scares me and Williams is inconsistant. I actually hope Sanford gets more playing time this season.
    Would you say that sometimes our S's get caught out of position, and sometimes that happens because of what some people do in front of them?
    Yes, sometimes that was the case.
    But Johnson was out of position so much I have a hard time blaming the corner.
    this.

    Look back to some games, steelers and packers x 2 come to mind. How many times did we see big seam passes down the middle go for big gains or TD's because the safeties were so badly out of position?

    I think the one long one in the steelers game to eitehr Wallace or Holmes, TJ was on the OPPOSITE SIDE OF THE FIEDL! There were two guys in the deep right zone, nobody in deep left.

  2. #42
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    Re:Unnamed Opponent Slams McKinnie, Other Vikings

    Marrdro just dislikes all of our good players

    Favre
    Winny
    Longwell

    He will start to dislike Allen more and more if he keeps convincing himself Edwards is almost as good

  3. #43
    12purplepride28's Avatar
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    Re:Unnamed Opponent Slams McKinnie, Other Vikings

    Marrdro wrote:
    By the way, other than the game were Whinny got injured and guys were shoved in there, our defense played better without him than they did with him.
    woah woah woah, I can't agree with you there. Ya winfield is primarily a run first cornerback, which obviously isn't ideal, but you can't deny the intensity he brings. Just look at the bengals game from last year, it was the first game antoine was back from his injury, and you could tell he was excited to be back. Just some of the hits he dished out were amazing, and you could tell that it helped the defense as a whole shut down an normally potent bengals offense.

    So yah, winfield is a great run defender, an average pass defender, but the veteran leadership and intensity he brings to our defense is one of those indefinable qualities that makes teams keep veterans around.
    I am NOT here to provide good football insight or rational observations. I am an emotional 19 year old Viking fan and I expect you to adjust your expectations from my posts.

  4. #44
    i_bleed_purple's Avatar
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    Re:Unnamed Opponent Slams McKinnie, Other Vikings

    12purplepride28 wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    By the way, other than the game were Whinny got injured and guys were shoved in there, our defense played better without him than they did with him.
    woah woah woah, I can't agree with you there. Ya winfield is primarily a run first cornerback, which obviously isn't ideal, but you can't deny the intensity he brings. Just look at the bengals game from last year, it was the first game antoine was back from his injury, and you could tell he was excited to be back. Just some of the hits he dished out were amazing, and you could tell that it helped the defense as a whole shut down an normally potent bengals offense.

    So yah, winfield is a great run defender, an average pass defender, but the veteran leadership and intensity he brings to our defense is one of those indefinable qualities that makes teams keep veterans around.
    its partially true.

    We gave up 385 yards in the air against the Ravens without Winfield
    We also gave up 7.7ypc to Rice

    I think our pass defense improved after a bit when Winny was gone, but our Run Defense really suffered. We couldn't stop the outside runs very well, and teams ran more.

    We gave up 5.6 ypc on the ground vs. the Steelers without Winny

    We gave up 287 yds and 3 TD"s vs. the packers
    and 5.5 ypc to grant and Rodgers

    Now that I look at it, our only good game without Winny really was the Steelers. We got toasted vs. ravens and packers.

    Even Matt Stafford put up 224, 1 TD
    and they rusehd for 4.2 ypc, 5.2 if you take away Maurice MOrris' pitiful carries.

    Hasslebeck passed for 73% and 231 yards, but no TD`s. They didn`t try running much though.

    Thats certainly not what I`d call playing `Better``

  5. #45
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re:Unnamed Opponent Slams McKinnie, Other Vikings

    12purplepride28 wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    By the way, other than the game were Whinny got injured and guys were shoved in there, our defense played better without him than they did with him.
    woah woah woah, I can't agree with you there. Ya winfield is primarily a run first cornerback, which obviously isn't ideal, but you can't deny the intensity he brings. Just look at the bengals game from last year, it was the first game antoine was back from his injury, and you could tell he was excited to be back. Just some of the hits he dished out were amazing, and you could tell that it helped the defense as a whole shut down an normally potent bengals offense.

    So yah, winfield is a great run defender, an average pass defender, but the veteran leadership and intensity he brings to our defense is one of those indefinable qualities that makes teams keep veterans around.
    When I say better, I actually mean I thought they did better (in the pass protection area).

    That doesn't mean I wouldn't want to see the whole cover 2 scrapped for a traditional "Press/Man" coverage system nor does it take away from the "intensity" that Whinny brings.

    Again, most aren't gonna like it, but I believe by the end of the year we will see someone other than Whinny starting this year, even if he stays healthy.

    My guess, the staff agree's with me mostly based on the clauses we saw in his contract.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  6. #46
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    Re:Unnamed Opponent Slams McKinnie, Other Vikings

    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    12purplepride28 wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    By the way, other than the game were Whinny got injured and guys were shoved in there, our defense played better without him than they did with him.
    woah woah woah, I can't agree with you there. Ya winfield is primarily a run first cornerback, which obviously isn't ideal, but you can't deny the intensity he brings. Just look at the bengals game from last year, it was the first game antoine was back from his injury, and you could tell he was excited to be back. Just some of the hits he dished out were amazing, and you could tell that it helped the defense as a whole shut down an normally potent bengals offense.

    So yah, winfield is a great run defender, an average pass defender, but the veteran leadership and intensity he brings to our defense is one of those indefinable qualities that makes teams keep veterans around.
    its partially true.

    We gave up 385 yards in the air against the Ravens without Winfield
    We also gave up 7.7ypc to Rice

    I think our pass defense improved after a bit when Winny was gone, but our Run Defense really suffered. We couldn't stop the outside runs very well, and teams ran more.

    We gave up 5.6 ypc on the ground vs. the Steelers without Winny

    We gave up 287 yds and 3 TD"s vs. the packers
    and 5.5 ypc to grant and Rodgers

    Now that I look at it, our only good game without Winny really was the Steelers. We got toasted vs. ravens and packers.

    Even Matt Stafford put up 224, 1 TD
    and they rusehd for 4.2 ypc, 5.2 if you take away Maurice MOrris' pitiful carries.

    Hasslebeck passed for 73% and 231 yards, but no TD`s. They didn`t try running much though.

    Thats certainly not what I`d call playing `Better``
    But you are looking at, mostly, Whinny's absence as being the blame for the increased run averages. I look at what happens in that Ravens game and see alot of runs that weren't to his side, even if he was in there.

    As to the pass yardages, I can go and pull up games were he was in there when we got chewed up. Does that mean Whinny had a bad game or does it mean our DL didn't get pressure.

    Kindof an apples and oranges thing on both counts if you ask me.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  7. #47
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    Re:Unnamed Opponent Slams McKinnie, Other Vikings

    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    12purplepride28 wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    By the way, other than the game were Whinny got injured and guys were shoved in there, our defense played better without him than they did with him.
    woah woah woah, I can't agree with you there. Ya winfield is primarily a run first cornerback, which obviously isn't ideal, but you can't deny the intensity he brings. Just look at the bengals game from last year, it was the first game antoine was back from his injury, and you could tell he was excited to be back. Just some of the hits he dished out were amazing, and you could tell that it helped the defense as a whole shut down an normally potent bengals offense.

    So yah, winfield is a great run defender, an average pass defender, but the veteran leadership and intensity he brings to our defense is one of those indefinable qualities that makes teams keep veterans around.
    its partially true.

    We gave up 385 yards in the air against the Ravens without Winfield
    We also gave up 7.7ypc to Rice

    I think our pass defense improved after a bit when Winny was gone, but our Run Defense really suffered. We couldn't stop the outside runs very well, and teams ran more.

    We gave up 5.6 ypc on the ground vs. the Steelers without Winny

    We gave up 287 yds and 3 TD"s vs. the packers
    and 5.5 ypc to grant and Rodgers

    Now that I look at it, our only good game without Winny really was the Steelers. We got toasted vs. ravens and packers.

    Even Matt Stafford put up 224, 1 TD
    and they rusehd for 4.2 ypc, 5.2 if you take away Maurice MOrris' pitiful carries.

    Hasslebeck passed for 73% and 231 yards, but no TD`s. They didn`t try running much though.

    Thats certainly not what I`d call playing `Better``
    Right on the money.
    I'll throw Marrdro a bone on Winnie.
    He has been known for his tackling prowess and run support since his college days, but also has been known as a man who can be beat deep and requires safety help over the top.

    So in general our pass defense may have improved when he was injured, but our run defense suffered. Neither one to a great degree however.
    What takes a quarterback to the next level is not arm strength or mobility or any of that stuff. Its the ability to play on critical downs. Manage third downs, or red zones or four-minute or two-minute situations"
    Dilfer

  8. #48
    i_bleed_purple's Avatar
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    Re:Unnamed Opponent Slams McKinnie, Other Vikings

    Marrdro wrote:
    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    12purplepride28 wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    By the way, other than the game were Whinny got injured and guys were shoved in there, our defense played better without him than they did with him.
    woah woah woah, I can't agree with you there. Ya winfield is primarily a run first cornerback, which obviously isn't ideal, but you can't deny the intensity he brings. Just look at the bengals game from last year, it was the first game antoine was back from his injury, and you could tell he was excited to be back. Just some of the hits he dished out were amazing, and you could tell that it helped the defense as a whole shut down an normally potent bengals offense.

    So yah, winfield is a great run defender, an average pass defender, but the veteran leadership and intensity he brings to our defense is one of those indefinable qualities that makes teams keep veterans around.
    its partially true.

    We gave up 385 yards in the air against the Ravens without Winfield
    We also gave up 7.7ypc to Rice

    I think our pass defense improved after a bit when Winny was gone, but our Run Defense really suffered. We couldn't stop the outside runs very well, and teams ran more.

    We gave up 5.6 ypc on the ground vs. the Steelers without Winny

    We gave up 287 yds and 3 TD"s vs. the packers
    and 5.5 ypc to grant and Rodgers

    Now that I look at it, our only good game without Winny really was the Steelers. We got toasted vs. ravens and packers.

    Even Matt Stafford put up 224, 1 TD
    and they rusehd for 4.2 ypc, 5.2 if you take away Maurice MOrris' pitiful carries.

    Hasslebeck passed for 73% and 231 yards, but no TD`s. They didn`t try running much though.

    Thats certainly not what I`d call playing `Better``
    But you are looking at, mostly, Whinny's absence as being the blame for the increased run averages. I look at what happens in that Ravens game and see alot of runs that weren't to his side, even if he was in there.

    As to the pass yardages, I can go and pull up games were he was in there when we got chewed up. Does that mean Whinny had a bad game or does it mean our DL didn't get pressure.

    Kindof an apples and oranges thing on both counts if you ask me.
    I'm not trying to prove winny's absence as being a blame for improved run game, just an observation I made.

    What I'm pointing out is our pass defense did not improve with winny gone like you claim. In fact, quite the opposite.

    From those games, we gave up an average of: 260.4yards in those 5 games, our average that year was 218.4 yards per game, including those 5, meaning if you don't include them, it was significantly better. I don't have the time or effort to go indepth with things like 3rd down %, etc.

    But its certainly not better without Winny.

  9. #49
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    Re:Unnamed Opponent Slams McKinnie, Other Vikings

    jargomcfargo wrote:
    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    12purplepride28 wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    By the way, other than the game were Whinny got injured and guys were shoved in there, our defense played better without him than they did with him.
    woah woah woah, I can't agree with you there. Ya winfield is primarily a run first cornerback, which obviously isn't ideal, but you can't deny the intensity he brings. Just look at the bengals game from last year, it was the first game antoine was back from his injury, and you could tell he was excited to be back. Just some of the hits he dished out were amazing, and you could tell that it helped the defense as a whole shut down an normally potent bengals offense.

    So yah, winfield is a great run defender, an average pass defender, but the veteran leadership and intensity he brings to our defense is one of those indefinable qualities that makes teams keep veterans around.
    its partially true.

    We gave up 385 yards in the air against the Ravens without Winfield
    We also gave up 7.7ypc to Rice

    I think our pass defense improved after a bit when Winny was gone, but our Run Defense really suffered. We couldn't stop the outside runs very well, and teams ran more.

    We gave up 5.6 ypc on the ground vs. the Steelers without Winny

    We gave up 287 yds and 3 TD"s vs. the packers
    and 5.5 ypc to grant and Rodgers

    Now that I look at it, our only good game without Winny really was the Steelers. We got toasted vs. ravens and packers.

    Even Matt Stafford put up 224, 1 TD
    and they rusehd for 4.2 ypc, 5.2 if you take away Maurice MOrris' pitiful carries.

    Hasslebeck passed for 73% and 231 yards, but no TD`s. They didn`t try running much though.

    Thats certainly not what I`d call playing `Better``
    Right on the money.
    I'll throw Marrdro a bone on Winnie.
    He has been known for his tackling prowess and run support since his college days, but also has been known as a man who can be beat deep and requires safety help over the top.

    So in general our pass defense may have improved when he was injured, but our run defense suffered. Neither one to a great degree however.
    the last bit isn't true. Despite poopular belief, our pass defense did not improve, quite the opposite actually.

    We gave up on average 218 pass yards per game. Over those 5 games listed, we gave up 260 yards per game. Definitely not an improvement.

  10. #50
    jargomcfargo's Avatar
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    Re:Unnamed Opponent Slams McKinnie, Other Vikings

    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    jargomcfargo wrote:
    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    12purplepride28 wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    By the way, other than the game were Whinny got injured and guys were shoved in there, our defense played better without him than they did with him.
    woah woah woah, I can't agree with you there. Ya winfield is primarily a run first cornerback, which obviously isn't ideal, but you can't deny the intensity he brings. Just look at the bengals game from last year, it was the first game antoine was back from his injury, and you could tell he was excited to be back. Just some of the hits he dished out were amazing, and you could tell that it helped the defense as a whole shut down an normally potent bengals offense.

    So yah, winfield is a great run defender, an average pass defender, but the veteran leadership and intensity he brings to our defense is one of those indefinable qualities that makes teams keep veterans around.
    its partially true.

    We gave up 385 yards in the air against the Ravens without Winfield
    We also gave up 7.7ypc to Rice

    I think our pass defense improved after a bit when Winny was gone, but our Run Defense really suffered. We couldn't stop the outside runs very well, and teams ran more.

    We gave up 5.6 ypc on the ground vs. the Steelers without Winny

    We gave up 287 yds and 3 TD"s vs. the packers
    and 5.5 ypc to grant and Rodgers

    Now that I look at it, our only good game without Winny really was the Steelers. We got toasted vs. ravens and packers.

    Even Matt Stafford put up 224, 1 TD
    and they rusehd for 4.2 ypc, 5.2 if you take away Maurice MOrris' pitiful carries.

    Hasslebeck passed for 73% and 231 yards, but no TD`s. They didn`t try running much though.

    Thats certainly not what I`d call playing `Better``
    Right on the money.
    I'll throw Marrdro a bone on Winnie.
    He has been known for his tackling prowess and run support since his college days, but also has been known as a man who can be beat deep and requires safety help over the top.

    So in general our pass defense may have improved when he was injured, but our run defense suffered. Neither one to a great degree however.
    the last bit isn't true. Despite poopular belief, our pass defense did not improve, quite the opposite actually.

    We gave up on average 218 pass yards per game. Over those 5 games listed, we gave up 260 yards per game. Definitely not an improvement.
    Who was propagating that myth on here? :unsure:
    What takes a quarterback to the next level is not arm strength or mobility or any of that stuff. Its the ability to play on critical downs. Manage third downs, or red zones or four-minute or two-minute situations"
    Dilfer

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