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  1. #21
    NodakPaul's Avatar
    NodakPaul is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Unfair homefield advantages.

    "Purplexing" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "Purplexing" wrote:
    For those fans who can't endure the 4 hours in cold weather for 2-3 games in cold weather in an outdoor stadium... sell your tickets to those who can, and watch at home.
    There is no requirement that a team cater to all types of fans.
    If so, GB, Chicago, Buffalo, NY, NE, etc. are all violating that requirement.
    Oh cripes.
    So the elderly, young, or people who just generally don't want to be frozen do not have the right to watch a Vikings game in their home stadium?
    The only true fans are healthy men in their 20-40's?
    :
    I should just sell my wife's and children's tickets because they aren't tough enough fans?

    You are right in that the team doesn't have to cater to every type of fan.
    But it shouldn't focus on just one either.
    This isn't the NFL of the 70's.
    The fan base is diverse and includes many different types of fans.
    I think the team should cater to its fan base as a whole, not just a vocal minority who wouldn't be affected either way.


    I would rather have a noise advantage anyway.
    It is selective and can be applied just against the opposing team, whereas everybody suffers in poor weather.

    Besides, the average daily temperature in Minny in December is around 11 degrees F, while in Green Bay it is around 20 degrees and Chicago can be anywhere from 20 to 34 degrees.
    The Old Met was easily the coldest stadium in the nfl.
    Yes.

    It's a great advantage being outdoors in Mpls in the winter.
    Greater than a noise advantage.
    How many Super Bowls did the Vikings reach via indoor playoff games at the Dumpty Dome?
    Hmmm Atlanta 30-27.
    How did the noise help that day?

    You avoided the point about GB, Chicago, Buffalo, NY, etc. having outdoor stadia.


    If you are attributing the Vikings super bowls births to their outdoor field, then you are sadly forgetting about some incredible players and a legendary defense.
    That is what got us to the big game, not the old met.

    And I didn't avoid the point about the other cities.
    I pointed out that no NFL city is as cold as Minneapolis in December.
    If you want to take it step further, I have seen a lot of games at soldier field that are barely three quarters full in bad weather, especially when the Bears are playing badly.

    Crowd noise is a better advantage IMHO.
    Seattle, Minnesota, Kansas City, Indy, etc, are all known for the noise, and all have fairly impressive home records over the lifetime of the stadium.
    But since there really isn't any 'measurable' way to determine the home field advantage an outdoor versus indoor stadium, I guess we'll have to just disagree on this.

    I did notice that you avoided my point about the Superbowl venue though...
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  2. #22
    davike's Avatar
    davike is offline Team Alumni
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    Re: Unfair homefield advantages.

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "Purplexing" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "Purplexing" wrote:
    For those fans who can't endure the 4 hours in cold weather for 2-3 games in cold weather in an outdoor stadium... sell your tickets to those who can, and watch at home.
    There is no requirement that a team cater to all types of fans.
    If so, GB, Chicago, Buffalo, NY, NE, etc. are all violating that requirement.
    Oh cripes.
    So the elderly, young, or people who just generally don't want to be frozen do not have the right to watch a Vikings game in their home stadium?
    The only true fans are healthy men in their 20-40's?
    :
    I should just sell my wife's and children's tickets because they aren't tough enough fans?

    You are right in that the team doesn't have to cater to every type of fan.
    But it shouldn't focus on just one either.
    This isn't the NFL of the 70's.
    The fan base is diverse and includes many different types of fans.
    I think the team should cater to its fan base as a whole, not just a vocal minority who wouldn't be affected either way.


    I would rather have a noise advantage anyway.
    It is selective and can be applied just against the opposing team, whereas everybody suffers in poor weather.

    Besides, the average daily temperature in Minny in December is around 11 degrees F, while in Green Bay it is around 20 degrees and Chicago can be anywhere from 20 to 34 degrees.
    The Old Met was easily the coldest stadium in the nfl.
    Yes.

    It's a great advantage being outdoors in Mpls in the winter.
    Greater than a noise advantage.
    How many Super Bowls did the Vikings reach via indoor playoff games at the Dumpty Dome?
    Hmmm Atlanta 30-27.
    How did the noise help that day?

    You avoided the point about GB, Chicago, Buffalo, NY, etc. having outdoor stadia.


    If you are attributing the Vikings super bowls births to their outdoor field, then you are sadly forgetting about some incredible players and a legendary defense.
    That is what got us to the big game, not the old met.

    And I didn't avoid the point about the other cities.
    I pointed out that no NFL city is as cold as Minneapolis in December.
    If you want to take it step further, I have seen a lot of games at soldier field that are barely three quarters full in bad weather, especially when the Bears are playing badly.

    Crowd noise is a better advantage IMHO.
    Seattle, Minnesota, Kansas City, Indy, etc, are all known for the noise, and all have fairly impressive home records over the lifetime of the stadium.
    But since there really isn't any 'measurable' way to determine the home field advantage an outdoor versus indoor stadium, I guess we'll have to just disagree on this.

    I did notice that you avoided my point about the Superbowl venue though...
    I agree...to blame not reaching the SB on the fact that we play in a dome is ridiculous.

    Thanks Josdin00 for the sig!

  3. #23
    jmcdon00's Avatar
    jmcdon00 is offline Jersey Retired Snake Champion, Moto Trial Fest 2: Mountain Pack Champion, LL City Truck 2 Champion, Arithmetic sequence Champion, Troops Tower Defense Champion
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    Re: Unfair homefield advantages.

    Will the twins outdoor stadium be an advantage? I don't think it will be for the fans. I can see sitting outside to watch a football game but i would not sit outside in the cold or rain for a baseball game. I don't think cold weather is much of an advantage because both teams have to deal with it and no one can controll it, crowd noise can be used to your advantage if done correctly(sometimes you here fans screaming while the vikes are on offense).

  4. #24
    Prophet's Avatar
    Prophet is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Unfair homefield advantages.

    Watching baseball indoors is like water skiing on concrete.
    The boys of summer should always play outdoors.
    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  5. #25
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    Re: Unfair homefield advantages.

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "Purplexing" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "Purplexing" wrote:
    For those fans who can't endure the 4 hours in cold weather for 2-3 games in cold weather in an outdoor stadium... sell your tickets to those who can, and watch at home.
    There is no requirement that a team cater to all types of fans.
    If so, GB, Chicago, Buffalo, NY, NE, etc. are all violating that requirement.
    Oh cripes.
    So the elderly, young, or people who just generally don't want to be frozen do not have the right to watch a Vikings game in their home stadium?
    The only true fans are healthy men in their 20-40's?
    :
    I should just sell my wife's and children's tickets because they aren't tough enough fans?

    You are right in that the team doesn't have to cater to every type of fan.
    But it shouldn't focus on just one either.
    This isn't the NFL of the 70's.
    The fan base is diverse and includes many different types of fans.
    I think the team should cater to its fan base as a whole, not just a vocal minority who wouldn't be affected either way.


    I would rather have a noise advantage anyway.
    It is selective and can be applied just against the opposing team, whereas everybody suffers in poor weather.

    Besides, the average daily temperature in Minny in December is around 11 degrees F, while in Green Bay it is around 20 degrees and Chicago can be anywhere from 20 to 34 degrees.
    The Old Met was easily the coldest stadium in the nfl.
    Yes.

    It's a great advantage being outdoors in Mpls in the winter.
    Greater than a noise advantage.
    How many Super Bowls did the Vikings reach via indoor playoff games at the Dumpty Dome?
    Hmmm Atlanta 30-27.
    How did the noise help that day?

    You avoided the point about GB, Chicago, Buffalo, NY, etc. having outdoor stadia.


    If you are attributing the Vikings super bowls births to their outdoor field, then you are sadly forgetting about some incredible players and a legendary defense.
    That is what got us to the big game, not the old met.

    And I didn't avoid the point about the other cities.
    I pointed out that no NFL city is as cold as Minneapolis in December.
    If you want to take it step further, I have seen a lot of games at soldier field that are barely three quarters full in bad weather, especially when the Bears are playing badly.

    Crowd noise is a better advantage IMHO.
    Seattle, Minnesota, Kansas City, Indy, etc, are all known for the noise, and all have fairly impressive home records over the lifetime of the stadium.
    But since there really isn't any 'measurable' way to determine the home field advantage an outdoor versus indoor stadium, I guess we'll have to just disagree on this.

    I did notice that you avoided my point about the Superbowl venue though...
    We must agree to disagree

    : over whether weather
    : is a greater advantage than noise.


    However, why are they mutually exclusive in your mind?
    Why can't fans in an outdoor stadium make disruptive noise?
    Philly fans do it all the time.
    Outdoor stadia might not lend themselves to audio dynamics that yield a huge noise disruption advantage, but many do create ample amplified
    :
    noise outdoors that is disruptive.

    Yes, I avoided discussing a Super Bowl venue.
    The reason is the perceived insignificance of that revenue relative to the homefield advantage provided by tough weather conditions.
    Follow along....

    1. There are 32 teams in the NFL, and southern cities are preferred over northern cities as SB host towns.

    2. Item 1. would imply the Vikings might be granted the right to host 1 SB over the next 20-25 years.

    With the Dumpty Dome in place, how many SB hostings were granted to Minnesota during its 23 years of operation?
    Answer: 1.


    3. The implication of item 2. is that there will not be much additional SB based revenue generated due to a new stadium with a roof when you consider the AVERAGE amount allocated to each of those 20-25 years, RELATIVE TO the total revenue generated each year.

    4. Additional revenue generated more frequently by an outdoor advantage might result from several more PLAYOFF appearances due to winning a few key home games in December against warm climate teams.

    5. Additional revenue might also be generated not only by qualifying for, but by ADVANCING in the playoffs due to a weather advantage.


    6. Ask retired LA Rams and Dallas Cowboys how they felt about playing the Vikings at the Old Met in 1970's playoff games.

    When we stop to think about it, most folks behavior isn't perplexing after all !

  6. #26
    NodakPaul's Avatar
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    Re: Unfair homefield advantages.

    "Purplexing" wrote:
    6. Ask retired LA Rams and Dallas Cowboys how they felt about playing the Vikings at the Old Met in 1970's playoff games.
    You can ask many of the retired Vikings the same question...

    Arguing that having an outdoor field will increase revenue because it leads to more post season appearances is speculation at best... There is really no data to support that assumption that an outdoor field gives the home team any type of advantage.
    Both teams have to play in the same weather, the home team might just be a little more used to it.
    But that advantage would be quickly erased when playing other outdoor teams, like Chicago and GB.

    I would rather have a full stadium cheering so loud that you can feel it.

    You are right though, the two are not mutually exclusive, although I think Philly is a bad example.
    FedEx Field and Qwest field would be better examples IMHO.
    My money is still on a retractable roof...
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  7. #27
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    Re: Unfair homefield advantages.

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "Purplexing" wrote:
    6. Ask retired LA Rams and Dallas Cowboys how they felt about playing the Vikings at the Old Met in 1970's playoff games.
    You can ask many of the retired Vikings the same question...

    Arguing that having an outdoor field will increase revenue because it leads to more post season appearances is speculation at best... There is really no data to support that assumption that an outdoor field gives the home team any type of advantage.
    Both teams have to play in the same weather, the home team might just be a little more used to it.
    But that advantage would be quickly erased when playing other outdoor teams, like Chicago and GB.

    I would rather have a full stadium cheering so loud that you can feel it.

    You are right though, the two are not mutually exclusive, although I think Philly is a bad example.
    FedEx Field and Qwest field would be better examples IMHO.
    My money is still on a retractable roof...
    Retired Vikings who played outdoors felt like they had an advantage.
    Perception is 90% of reality.
    If it increased their confidence, it had an impact.

    Viking players becoming accustomed to playing in cold weather neutralizes the prior outdoor weather advantage that the Packers and Da Bearrrsss had at their home fields.
    IOW, it doesn't give the Vikings an advantage, it takes away another outdoor cold weather team's prior advantage over the previously domed team.

    By stating my theory that the weather advantage is 'only speculation' doesn't disprove it.
    In fact, many times, by many knowledgeable players, coaches, and football analysts, cold weather has been deemed to be an advantage to teams that are accustomed to it.
    Examples: Tampa Bay's extremely poor record playing in temps below 34 degrees at the start of the game, and GB's huge homefield advantage in the playoff games it played in Wisconsin.
    While TB may have been a lousy team over most of its early history, it certainly played worse in cold weather over that period as compared to other weather.
    When we stop to think about it, most folks behavior isn't perplexing after all !

  8. #28
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    Re: Unfair homefield advantages.

    Don't know if it's true but my mom told me that the vikings were the only team outdoors that didn't have heated benches because Bud Grant thought they made them weak. Anyways, the best would be a retractable roof only for the superbowl and other events held inside the new stadium. Although theres no data to prove you get more playoff berths from a cold weather stadium, it's obvious that it does give you an advantage versus warmer weather teams late in the season.
    Wait, if there's cat food in this bag............................
    I HAVE TO CHECK ON JOLLY!!!!

  9. #29
    NodakPaul's Avatar
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    Re: Unfair homefield advantages.

    "Purplexing" wrote:
    Retired Vikings who played outdoors felt like they had an advantage.
    Perception is 90% of reality.
    If it increased their confidence, it had an impact.

    Viking players becoming accustomed to playing in cold weather neutralizes the prior outdoor weather advantage that the Packers and Da Bearrrsss had at their home fields.
    IOW, it doesn't give the Vikings an advantage, it takes away another outdoor cold weather team's prior advantage over the previously domed team.

    By stating my theory that the weather advantage is 'only speculation' doesn't disprove it.
    In fact, many times, by many knowledgeable players, coaches, and football analysts, cold weather has been deemed to be an advantage to teams that are accustomed to it.
    Examples: Tampa Bay's extremely poor record playing in temps below 34 degrees at the start of the game, and GB's huge homefield advantage in the playoff games it played in Wisconsin.
    While TB may have been a lousy team over most of its early history, it certainly played worse in cold weather over that period as compared to other weather.
    Retired Vikings who played outdoors felt like they had an advantage. Link?
    Or just your belief?

    I will actually buy into the fact that playing outdoors is an advantage.
    I just don't know if it is a big enough advantage to warrant alienating a good portion of the fan base.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  10. #30
    jessejames09's Avatar
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    Re: Unfair homefield advantages.

    I doubt we would build an outdoor stadium anyways. Our offense is a finesse WC offense we don't need a wet feild when we are throwing screens and slants everyplay. Our routes are supposed to be very well timed we dont need freezing temperatures and wetness involved. If anything all of us know the snow would also cost us a few games a year because we are the vikings.

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