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  1. #91
    NodakPaul's Avatar
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    Re: Two games in and it's clear: Jackson isn't ready for this

    "minnesota" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "minnesota" wrote:
    "V" wrote:
    "minnesota" wrote:
    They need to roll him out more and he will be better!
    Ummm, no he won't.

    He will be better when he has time to pass, and when he isn't being asked to throw the deep ball.
    He will have more time to pass if he rolls out, all his rush was straight up the middle, and I really don't think he is much of a pocket passer. How will making him roll out make him worse? He will have more time to throw the ball or just gain 5 yards
    a pop running. What's wrong with the deep ball? If he has time to step into his throw with his strong arm im sure that taking a chance at the deep ball a couple times per game will be essential. You need a deep threat.
    Throwing on the run is not easy.
    Plus when you roll out you lose a lot of passing lanes.
    You pretty much eliminate your receivers on the other half of the field.

    As far as the deep ball, that has been beat to death in another thread.
    But here is the short and skinny: 1)TJack is not very accurate throwing a deep ball, 2) the WCO does not forcus on the deep threat.
    As far as the deep threat, i don't really think it's a reason why Tjack isn't playing good, I'm not saying throw it deep a lot I'm just saying maybe like once or twice a game, no big deal
    It is a big deal when they are intercepted.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  2. #92
    The Dropper's Avatar
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    Re: Two games in and it's clear: Jackson isn't ready for this

    "V" wrote:
    None of our current QBs, including Jackson, have the talent to run this offensive scheme. The problem is not the players, but the playcallers. Benching Jackson won't change a single thing.

    IMO our options are three:
    1. Change the scheme to fit our offensive strength. The running game. Run the ball 40 times per game. Keep TJ in and let him know his #1 priority is to take care of the ball. Detroit scored 17 of their 20 points off turnovers...[snip]
    When I read this, V, I instantly recalled a conversation I was having last Sunday with a buddy of mine where I was basically saying the same thing that you are about just pounding out the run for the whole game. At one point I said, why not just get rid of the QB altogether and replace him with another running back? At this, my friend suggested the Wishbone offense. And i had a Eureka! moment.

    Seriously, why don't we run the Wishbone and the Wing-T?
    It would seem to me that we have all of the personnel in place for both schemes: a decent run-blocking line, one of the best pass-blocking TE's in the NFL, a pro-bowl FB, three quick, shifty RB's (two of which are bruisers and all three of whom can carry a decent load), and an athletic QB. How great would it be to have Chester line up as FB in the Wing-T with AD and Mewelde as slotbacks?

    With these schemes, defenses could load up the box all they want, but I think very few would be able to fully contain the run.

  3. #93
    minnesota's Avatar
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    Re: Two games in and it's clear: Jackson isn't ready for this

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "minnesota" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "minnesota" wrote:
    "V" wrote:
    [quote author=minnesota link=topic=38015.msg640558#msg640558 date=1190246402]
    They need to roll him out more and he will be better!
    Ummm, no he won't.

    He will be better when he has time to pass, and when he isn't being asked to throw the deep ball.
    He will have more time to pass if he rolls out, all his rush was straight up the middle, and I really don't think he is much of a pocket passer. How will making him roll out make him worse? He will have more time to throw the ball or just gain 5 yards
    a pop running. What's wrong with the deep ball? If he has time to step into his throw with his strong arm im sure that taking a chance at the deep ball a couple times per game will be essential. You need a deep threat.
    Throwing on the run is not easy.
    Plus when you roll out you lose a lot of passing lanes.
    You pretty much eliminate your receivers on the other half of the field.

    As far as the deep ball, that has been beat to death in another thread.
    But here is the short and skinny: 1)TJack is not very accurate throwing a deep ball, 2) the WCO does not forcus on the deep threat.
    As far as the deep threat, i don't really think it's a reason why Tjack isn't playing good, I'm not saying throw it deep a lot I'm just saying maybe like once or twice a game, no big deal
    It is a big deal when they are intercepted.
    [/quote]

    Theres no way the deep ball should be picked. The deep ball gets picked when it is under thrown, i thought tjack had a big arm?

  4. #94
    V-Unit's Avatar
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    Re: Two games in and it's clear: Jackson isn't ready for this

    "minnesota" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "minnesota" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "minnesota" wrote:
    [quote author=V link=topic=38015.msg640560#msg640560 date=1190246627]
    [quote author=minnesota link=topic=38015.msg640558#msg640558 date=1190246402]
    They need to roll him out more and he will be better!
    Ummm, no he won't.

    He will be better when he has time to pass, and when he isn't being asked to throw the deep ball.
    He will have more time to pass if he rolls out, all his rush was straight up the middle, and I really don't think he is much of a pocket passer. How will making him roll out make him worse? He will have more time to throw the ball or just gain 5 yards
    a pop running. What's wrong with the deep ball? If he has time to step into his throw with his strong arm im sure that taking a chance at the deep ball a couple times per game will be essential. You need a deep threat.
    Throwing on the run is not easy.
    Plus when you roll out you lose a lot of passing lanes.
    You pretty much eliminate your receivers on the other half of the field.

    As far as the deep ball, that has been beat to death in another thread.
    But here is the short and skinny: 1)TJack is not very accurate throwing a deep ball, 2) the WCO does not forcus on the deep threat.
    As far as the deep threat, i don't really think it's a reason why Tjack isn't playing good, I'm not saying throw it deep a lot I'm just saying maybe like once or twice a game, no big deal
    It is a big deal when they are intercepted.
    [/quote]

    Theres no way the deep ball should be picked. The deep ball gets picked when it is under thrown, i thought tjack had a big arm?

    [/quote]

    Has Daunte been erased from your mind? It is not his arm that is the problem. He has plenty of arm. TJ however still needs works on his timing and his accuracy. If TJ wanted to overthrow his WR he could. He is trying to put it on the money, and missing badly. He has overthrown the deep ball more than he has underthrown it if you watch the two games again. My guess is after a couple of the overthrows he tried to put more touch on the ball, started underthrowing it, and picks happened.
    "I hate when threads are destroyed by facts and logic."
    - Prophet


    Thanks Josdin!

  5. #95
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    Re: Two games in and it's clear: Jackson isn't ready for this

    That is only true about deep throw picks if you throw the ball at the receiver.

    Wishbone and wing-T look good to me...I'd like to see some variation off of Walsh's original Option Right.
    And, then there is all my two-back sets...maybe even put AP or MM in motion, out to a slot WR route...?
    Swing right, swing left, the backs take turns lead blocking...
    Control the line, control the time, and give your D a chance to shine!!

    "Balance it on end and thats the third side of the coin!!" -wookiefoot

  6. #96
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    Re: Two games in and it's clear: Jackson isn't ready for this

    "mountainviking" wrote:
    That is only true about deep throw picks if you throw the ball at the receiver.

    Wishbone and wing-T look good to me...I'd like to see some variation off of Walsh's original Option Right.
    And, then there is all my two-back sets...maybe even put AP or MM in motion, out to a slot WR route...?
    Swing right, swing left, the backs take turns lead blocking...
    needs to be implemented in our offense...our rb's are scary good

    Thanks josdin00

  7. #97
    V-Unit's Avatar
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    Re: Two games in and it's clear: Jackson isn't ready for this

    "The" wrote:
    "V" wrote:
    None of our current QBs, including Jackson, have the talent to run this offensive scheme. The problem is not the players, but the playcallers. Benching Jackson won't change a single thing.

    IMO our options are three:
    1. Change the scheme to fit our offensive strength. The running game. Run the ball 40 times per game. Keep TJ in and let him know his #1 priority is to take care of the ball. Detroit scored 17 of their 20 points off turnovers...[snip]
    When I read this, V, I instantly recalled a conversation I was having last Sunday with a buddy of mine where I was basically saying the same thing that you are about just pounding out the run for the whole game. At one point I said, why not just get rid of the QB altogether and replace him with another running back? At this, my friend suggested the Wishbone offense. And i had a Eureka! moment.

    Seriously, why don't we run the Wishbone and the Wing-T?
    It would seem to me that we have all of the personnel in place for both schemes: a decent run-blocking line, one of the best pass-blocking TE's in the NFL, a pro-bowl FB, three quick, shifty RB's (two of which are bruisers and all three of whom can carry a decent load), and an athletic QB. How great would it be to have Chester line up as FB in the Wing-T with AD and Mewelde as slotbacks?

    With these schemes, defenses could load up the box all they want, but I think very few would be able to fully contain the run.
    We ran the Wing T in High School. I know it like the back of my hand.

    1. The Wing T does not eliminate the QB for a RB. It eliminates a WR for a RB. You basically have 1 QB, 1 FB, and 2 RB in the Wing T.
    2. The Wing T has option-plays that make up 30% of the playbook. I don't want to see us run an option offense. Do you?
    3. It is impossible to pass effectively in the Wing T formation. There are basically three routes: the post flag, the drag, and the swing pass. Other than that there is a WR screen. That's about it. You can't even run a screen pass from Wing T formation. To pass in high school we would spread out the two RBs wide, which basically told the defense we were passing. We ran 85% of the time. It's just not possible in the pros.

    Now, the Wing T works because every play looks the same, and they are committed to running the ball. Even though the D knows the run is scoming, they don't know where, or which RB will get the carry. I agree with the pihlosophy of sticking to the run no matter how effective it is, but the actual offense won't work in the pros. It barely works in college these days.

    Shout out to the Wing T!
    "I hate when threads are destroyed by facts and logic."
    - Prophet


    Thanks Josdin!

  8. #98
    minnesota's Avatar
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    Re: Two games in and it's clear: Jackson isn't ready for this

    "V" wrote:
    "minnesota" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "minnesota" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    [quote author=minnesota link=topic=38015.msg641084#msg641084 date=1190323571]
    [quote author=V link=topic=38015.msg640560#msg640560 date=1190246627]
    [quote author=minnesota link=topic=38015.msg640558#msg640558 date=1190246402]
    They need to roll him out more and he will be better!
    Ummm, no he won't.

    He will be better when he has time to pass, and when he isn't being asked to throw the deep ball.
    He will have more time to pass if he rolls out, all his rush was straight up the middle, and I really don't think he is much of a pocket passer. How will making him roll out make him worse? He will have more time to throw the ball or just gain 5 yards
    a pop running. What's wrong with the deep ball? If he has time to step into his throw with his strong arm im sure that taking a chance at the deep ball a couple times per game will be essential. You need a deep threat.
    Throwing on the run is not easy.
    Plus when you roll out you lose a lot of passing lanes.
    You pretty much eliminate your receivers on the other half of the field.

    As far as the deep ball, that has been beat to death in another thread.
    But here is the short and skinny: 1)TJack is not very accurate throwing a deep ball, 2) the WCO does not forcus on the deep threat.
    As far as the deep threat, i don't really think it's a reason why Tjack isn't playing good, I'm not saying throw it deep a lot I'm just saying maybe like once or twice a game, no big deal
    It is a big deal when they are intercepted.
    [/quote]

    Theres no way the deep ball should be picked. The deep ball gets picked when it is under thrown, i thought tjack had a big arm?

    [/quote]

    Has Daunte been erased from your mind? It is not his arm that is the problem. He has plenty of arm. TJ however still needs works on his timing and his accuracy. If TJ wanted to overthrow his WR he could. He is trying to put it on the money, and missing badly. He has overthrown the deep ball more than he has underthrown it if you watch the two games again. My guess is after a couple of the overthrows he tried to put more touch on the ball, started underthrowing it, and picks happened.
    [/quote]

    ya i see what your saying


    i still think they should roll him out more

  9. #99
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    Re: Two games in and it's clear: Jackson isn't ready for this

    Why so he can throw the ball over the middle some more?

  10. #100
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    Re: Two games in and it's clear: Jackson isn't ready for this

    "Caine" wrote:
    I said before the season that Tarvaris needed more time...I stand by that call.
    This isn't a "neener neener"...I'm simply laying the groundwork for what's to follow.

    Last season, after watching a stale, stagnant Viking offense - something NONE of us were prepared for after a 9-7 season - just about anyone looked like an attractive alternative to Brad Johnson.
    After all, a guy who was reputed to "not throw a game away with bad plays" was...well...throwing games away with bad plays.


    And finger pointing was rampant.

    The receivers, the line, the coach, and even some elderly lady who had walked by the Metrodome and broken wind were all to blame for the abominable offense we fielded last season.
    But mostly the fingers were pointed at Johnson.
    So, when Jackson took the field everyone thought, "This can't be any worse"...and it wasn't.
    It was simply just as bad.

    So, then we go through the dreary off season.
    We watched every "name" receiver that became available go to other teams while we signed (for far too much money) a career special teamer and a back-up TE.
    We watched several hot QB prospects go to other teams while the Vikings stoically claimed that "Tarvaris is ready".

    We got to the draft and there was reason to hope that some of our selections would develope into good receivers, but that wasn't going to help us NOW.
    We DID pull a fantastic Running Back...so long as he stays healthy...but we didn't grab a QB many thought we would (Again, the claim that, "Tarvaris is ready" resonated).

    The preseason...and the guy who was "ready" looked "shakey".
    But, many dismissed any criticism of Jackson claiming he would develop and mature (and he likely will, the question now becomes "how").
    But the single most telling move of the offseason/preseason was the acquisition of Kelly Holcomb.

    Why?
    Because it was the first real sign that there was uncertainty about the fate of our projected starter.
    That maybe Childress was starting to think that Tarvaris wasn't ready after all, and it might be a good idea to have someone on the roster with more credibility than Brooks Bollinger.

    So, now here we are, 2 games in, and people are shocked that Tarvaris is under a microscope?
    Why?
    Childress said he was ready!!!!
    Against Detroit, he obviously wasn't.
    And, truth be told, he didn't look all that great against Atlanta - Peterson did.

    So, where do they go from here?

    Personally, I think we start Holcomb.
    Let Jackson develop a bit more.
    Let him see more.
    he's been on the field and had his tail kicked a bit, let him rebuild his confidence before throwing him back under the bus.
    I'm not saying we call him a failure...he most certainly isn't....yet.
    He's just a young guy who got torched a few too many times because he obviously WASN'T ready.

    Some will say (and have said) that he should stay in and develop on the field.
    I disagree.
    I think doing so may cause him to lose confidence all together.
    Did anyone else notice how jumpy he was in the pocket?
    While some have said the protection wasn't there, I don't think that's entirely true.
    Too many times I saw him start to flush early...especially when McKinnie got past his peripheral.
    Bryant had his guy, but Tarvaris would take off to the right...and a pick followed.
    Or, he'd rush the throw and place the ball poorly (not counting the picks, which is the worst possible placement).


    I know that when a horse throws you, you have to climb right back up.
    But this is a bit different.
    Tarvaris got beat mentally last week.
    He got rattled.
    He needs to get his confidence back, and in order to do that he'll need time.
    If he goes right back in and gets lit up, he may turn into Cade McNown (whose confidence was SHATTERED by Chicago).

    If jackson is going to develop into the guy who will lead this team, then HE has to believe it.
    And, based on what I've seen in his 4 starts to date, he's not there yet.

    Caine
    well it's a little early to be pulling out the neener neener anyway so no need to even mention it.
    you make good points, but as we've discussed before cade mcnown didn't just fall out of the league cuz he was on bad teams, he just was not the guy people thought he was.
    but he got more time than anyone is giving jackson right now.


    great qbs go through this kinda play when they are on mediocre offenses, and alot of times with veteran guys sitting behind them.
    I"m not one for the "learn while he watches" crap cuz to me you learn the most when you are on the field with the speed, looking at your own decisions on film and correcting them.
    if mcnown didn't play, they wouldn't have known he sucked, just like green bay will not know what they have in aaron rogers until he plays and might have to start all over after alot of investment.


    give him a chance to work it out, if he doesn't at least we know where we stand with him.
    If we just throw another vet in there with a mediocre offense, whats to gain?
    unless some of you guys think holcomb is leading us to the playoffs and starting for us next year?
    LET THAT WHICH DOES NOT MATTER, TRULY SLIDE

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