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Thread: Top 5 things

  1. #51
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    Re: Top 5 things

    Besides the two guys jawing at each other, there's some pretty decent stuff in this thread.

    I think Digital makes good points about TWill (yes he has sucked this year, and he has proven that he should not have been picked #7) ,however, he still does have game breaking talent that needs to be utilized somehow.
    Brad Johnson is a big part of this problem, TWill's confidence is the other.
    He is not and should not be a #1 receiver at this point even though he was an early 1st round pick.
    He's got a long ways to be put in the same sentence as guys like TO and Steve Smith.
    But you can't sit there and tell me that this guy will never be able to catch a ball,
    I won't believe it.

    Why has Bethel been taken out of the offense lately?
    He had a few decent games and now nothing.
    I don't think the rest of the receivers have the ability to go 20 yrds down the field without pulling a hammy, so without a Bethel or TWill type guy forget about any kind of respect deep, but then again how do you get the ball to them with BJ playing.

    You put TJ in the game and you will see guys like Bethel and Troy making headlines in PP.O.
    2 game breaking TD's deep and probably 3-4 INT's to go with it.

    Caine makes a lot of good points as usual.
    Specifically about the offense (C+ rating sits about right with me), not pursuing a decent QB when they were available,
    needing to pursue a legitimate #1 receiver this offseason, having a QB with a cannon and mobility is required for this offense to work (aka Philly), offense is the reason we lost all but the New England game, .....





  2. #52
    whackthepack is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Top 5 things

    "tastywaves" wrote:
    Besides the two guys jawing at each other, there's some pretty decent stuff in this thread.

    I think Digital makes good points about TWill (yes he has sucked this year, and he has proven that he should not have been picked #7) ,however, he still does have game breaking talent that needs to be utilized somehow.
    Brad Johnson is a big part of this problem, TWill's confidence is the other.
    He is not and should not be a #1 receiver at this point even though he was an early 1st round pick.
    He's got a long ways to be put in the same sentence as guys like TO and Steve Smith.
    But you can't sit there and tell me that this guy will never be able to catch a ball,
    I won't believe it.

    Why has Bethel been taken out of the offense lately?
    He had a few decent games and now nothing.

    I don't think the rest of the receivers have the ability to go 20 yrds down the field without pulling a hammy, so without a Bethel or TWill type guy forget about any kind of respect deep, but then again how do you get the ball to them with BJ playing.

    You put TJ in the game and you will see guys like Bethel and Troy making headlines in PP.O.
    2 game breaking TD's deep and probably 3-4 INT's to go with it.

    Caine makes a lot of good points as usual.
    Specifically about the offense (C+ rating sits about right with me), not pursuing a decent QB when they were available,
    needing to pursue a legitimate #1 receiver this offseason, having a QB with a cannon and mobility is required for this offense to work (aka Philly), offense is the reason we lost all but the New England game, .....



    What QB's are you talking about?
    The only good QB that was an available FA was Drew Brees, and he was questionable coming off shoulder surgery and at that time we still had Brad who had done a good job last year in relief of Daunte and we still had Daunte on the roster!

    It was not until after Brees had agreed to terms with the Saints that Miami then pursued Daunte and there was no way that the Vikes were going to committee 60 million dollars and a 10 million signing bonus to Brees with a questionable shoulder and having Daunte still due a 6 million roster bonus and a questionable knee!
    The Vikes would have had potentially 20 million in salary this year on 2 QB's that might not have beeen able to play, as it turns out Brees shoulder is fine and he is having a phenomenal year but that was not a sure thing in April.

    The only other FA QB's that were even worth considering were Kitna, Collins and Aaron Brooks (after the Saints singed Brees).
    RFA QB's the best was Schaub and the Vikes reportedly tried 2 or 3 times to make a deal for him, and Atlanta wouldn't accept the offer!
    We could have made a trade with the Lions for Harrington but there wasn't a poster on this board that wanted to do that.


    Plus we thought we had a # 1 wide receiver in Koren before he melted down and how was the coaching staff supposed to know that would happen?
    What we've got here is failure to communicate.

  3. #53
    V-Unit's Avatar
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    Re: Top 5 things

    Amazing thread. It's amaing how e-testosterone can run so high.

    Anways, since it's obivous Williamson and BJ suck, the question is: What do we do with them? I don't think they is anything wrong with having Brad on the bench next year and Twill as the #3 receiver. We are talking about progress here, and "being on the right track", so cutting them and looking for new options shouldn't be our philosphy. Benching them until they prove their worth is enough, especially when Williamson is so young, and Brad is paid as a backup anyways. Cutting and signing gives you a couple good years and that's it, that's not what I want.
    "I hate when threads are destroyed by facts and logic."
    - Prophet


    Thanks Josdin!

  4. #54
    Del Rio Guest

    Re: Top 5 things

    I think a lot of the reason for the frustration is the design of the offense. Traditional offenses go through a deep to short passing game, the WCO offense usually goes from a short to deep progression.

    The idea is to hit the short route to set up the deep route and from what I have seen it has been working.

    Working except for a few things:
    1) Dropped passes this WCO offense isn't going to get you many shots downfield. You have short to deep progressions. When the ball hits your hands you have to catch it.

    2) Brad Johnson, earlier this season he was throwing deep with some fairly steady accuracy, dropped passes hurt. Now I don't know if he is worn down, is trying to hard, or what but he cannot hit the routes in stride.

    This actually could work out for Tarvaris if he gets the call ever. The short to deep progression can make for a lot of easy passes and high comp% while setting up the mid to deep ball. It could build his confidence even more.

    I think the offensive scheme is solid, I have always believed from what I have seen in the games that the struggles are soley due to execution of that offense by the players.

  5. #55
    tastywaves's Avatar
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    Re: Top 5 things

    "whackthepack" wrote:
    "tastywaves" wrote:
    Besides the two guys jawing at each other, there's some pretty decent stuff in this thread.

    I think Digital makes good points about TWill (yes he has sucked this year, and he has proven that he should not have been picked #7) ,however, he still does have game breaking talent that needs to be utilized somehow.
    Brad Johnson is a big part of this problem, TWill's confidence is the other.
    He is not and should not be a #1 receiver at this point even though he was an early 1st round pick.
    He's got a long ways to be put in the same sentence as guys like TO and Steve Smith.
    But you can't sit there and tell me that this guy will never be able to catch a ball,
    I won't believe it.

    Why has Bethel been taken out of the offense lately?
    He had a few decent games and now nothing.

    I don't think the rest of the receivers have the ability to go 20 yrds down the field without pulling a hammy, so without a Bethel or TWill type guy forget about any kind of respect deep, but then again how do you get the ball to them with BJ playing.

    You put TJ in the game and you will see guys like Bethel and Troy making headlines in PP.O.
    2 game breaking TD's deep and probably 3-4 INT's to go with it.

    Caine makes a lot of good points as usual.
    Specifically about the offense (C+ rating sits about right with me), not pursuing a decent QB when they were available,
    needing to pursue a legitimate #1 receiver this offseason, having a QB with a cannon and mobility is required for this offense to work (aka Philly), offense is the reason we lost all but the New England game, .....



    What QB's are you talking about?
    The only good QB that was an available FA was Drew Brees, and he was questionable coming off shoulder surgery and at that time we still had Brad who had done a good job last year in relief of Daunte and we still had Daunte on the roster!

    It was not until after Brees had agreed to terms with the Saints that Miami then pursued Daunte and there was no way that the Vikes were going to committee 60 million dollars and a 10 million signing bonus to Brees with a questionable shoulder and having Daunte still due a 6 million roster bonus and a questionable knee!

    The Vikes would have had potentially 20 million in salary this year on 2 QB's that might not have beeen able to play, as it turns out Brees shoulder is fine and he is having a phenomenal year but that was not a sure thing in April.

    The only other FA QB's that were even worth considering were Kitna, Collins and Aaron Brooks (after the Saints singed Brees).
    RFA QB's the best was Schaub and the Vikes reportedly tried 2 or 3 times to make a deal for him, and Atlanta wouldn't accept the offer!
    We could have made a trade with the Lions for Harrington but there wasn't a poster on this board that wanted to do that.


    Plus we thought we had a # 1 wide receiver in Koren before he melted down and how was the coaching staff supposed to know that would happen?
    Childress depended too much on Brad Johnson being effective even though the organization didn't think he was worthy of starting pay.
    That tells me that they understood they would only have average QB play this year.
    I was behind Brad Johnson starting for the Vikes this year and actually thought he would do pretty good in getting things going with Childress WCO.
    I did not expect him to lay an egg like he has.
    That being said, I think Childress failed in having a decent QB plan for this year.

    He started out the year with McMahon and O'Sullivan as backups to Brad.
    They failed miserably and were cut.
    Now you've only got the castoffs to choose from.
    If you didn't want to spend the bucks for a questionable Brees I think they should have brought on someone like Griese or Kitna to make sure that the most important position on your team has some options if things go bad.
    TJ can't be mentioned because he was and is never seriously considered as a starter this year.

    On the WR thing, I was not criticizing past coaching decisions, I said we need to get a true #1 for next year.

  6. #56
    whackthepack is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Top 5 things

    "tastywaves" wrote:
    "whackthepack" wrote:
    "tastywaves" wrote:
    Besides the two guys jawing at each other, there's some pretty decent stuff in this thread.

    I think Digital makes good points about TWill (yes he has sucked this year, and he has proven that he should not have been picked #7) ,however, he still does have game breaking talent that needs to be utilized somehow.
    Brad Johnson is a big part of this problem, TWill's confidence is the other.
    He is not and should not be a #1 receiver at this point even though he was an early 1st round pick.
    He's got a long ways to be put in the same sentence as guys like TO and Steve Smith.
    But you can't sit there and tell me that this guy will never be able to catch a ball,
    I won't believe it.

    Why has Bethel been taken out of the offense lately?
    He had a few decent games and now nothing.

    I don't think the rest of the receivers have the ability to go 20 yrds down the field without pulling a hammy, so without a Bethel or TWill type guy forget about any kind of respect deep, but then again how do you get the ball to them with BJ playing.

    You put TJ in the game and you will see guys like Bethel and Troy making headlines in PP.O.
    2 game breaking TD's deep and probably 3-4 INT's to go with it.

    Caine makes a lot of good points as usual.
    Specifically about the offense (C+ rating sits about right with me), not pursuing a decent QB when they were available,
    needing to pursue a legitimate #1 receiver this offseason, having a QB with a cannon and mobility is required for this offense to work (aka Philly), offense is the reason we lost all but the New England game, .....



    What QB's are you talking about?
    The only good QB that was an available FA was Drew Brees, and he was questionable coming off shoulder surgery and at that time we still had Brad who had done a good job last year in relief of Daunte and we still had Daunte on the roster!

    It was not until after Brees had agreed to terms with the Saints that Miami then pursued Daunte and there was no way that the Vikes were going to committee 60 million dollars and a 10 million signing bonus to Brees with a questionable shoulder and having Daunte still due a 6 million roster bonus and a questionable knee!

    The Vikes would have had potentially 20 million in salary this year on 2 QB's that might not have beeen able to play, as it turns out Brees shoulder is fine and he is having a phenomenal year but that was not a sure thing in April.

    The only other FA QB's that were even worth considering were Kitna, Collins and Aaron Brooks (after the Saints singed Brees).
    RFA QB's the best was Schaub and the Vikes reportedly tried 2 or 3 times to make a deal for him, and Atlanta wouldn't accept the offer!
    We could have made a trade with the Lions for Harrington but there wasn't a poster on this board that wanted to do that.


    Plus we thought we had a # 1 wide receiver in Koren before he melted down and how was the coaching staff supposed to know that would happen?
    Childress depended too much on Brad Johnson being effective even though the organization didn't think he was worthy of starting pay.
    That tells me that they understood they would only have average QB play this year.
    I was behind Brad Johnson starting for the Vikes this year and actually thought he would do pretty good in getting things going with Childress WCO.
    I did not expect him to lay an egg like he has.
    That being said, I think Childress failed in having a decent QB plan for this year.

    He started out the year with McMahon and O'Sullivan as backups to Brad.
    They failed miserably and were cut.
    Now you've only got the castoffs to choose from.
    If you didn't want to spend the bucks for a questionable Brees I think they should have brought on someone like Griese or Kitna to make sure that the most important position on your team has some options if things go bad.
    TJ can't be mentioned because he was and is never seriously considered as a starter this year.

    On the WR thing, I was not criticizing past coaching decisions, I said we need to get a true #1 for next year.

    But there wasn't anybody besides Brees out there that was less of a risk than Brad Johnson at that time and they gambled that Brad had another season and they lost.
    But there was not a plethora of FA QB's just sitting there waiting to be signed.
    What we've got here is failure to communicate.

  7. #57
    Caine's Avatar
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    Re: Top 5 things

    "whackthepack" wrote:
    "tastywaves" wrote:
    "whackthepack" wrote:
    "tastywaves" wrote:
    Besides the two guys jawing at each other, there's some pretty decent stuff in this thread.

    I think Digital makes good points about TWill (yes he has sucked this year, and he has proven that he should not have been picked #7) ,however, he still does have game breaking talent that needs to be utilized somehow.
    Brad Johnson is a big part of this problem, TWill's confidence is the other.
    He is not and should not be a #1 receiver at this point even though he was an early 1st round pick.
    He's got a long ways to be put in the same sentence as guys like TO and Steve Smith.
    But you can't sit there and tell me that this guy will never be able to catch a ball,
    I won't believe it.

    Why has Bethel been taken out of the offense lately?
    He had a few decent games and now nothing.

    I don't think the rest of the receivers have the ability to go 20 yrds down the field without pulling a hammy, so without a Bethel or TWill type guy forget about any kind of respect deep, but then again how do you get the ball to them with BJ playing.

    You put TJ in the game and you will see guys like Bethel and Troy making headlines in PP.O.
    2 game breaking TD's deep and probably 3-4 INT's to go with it.

    Caine makes a lot of good points as usual.
    Specifically about the offense (C+ rating sits about right with me), not pursuing a decent QB when they were available,
    needing to pursue a legitimate #1 receiver this offseason, having a QB with a cannon and mobility is required for this offense to work (aka Philly), offense is the reason we lost all but the New England game, .....



    What QB's are you talking about?
    The only good QB that was an available FA was Drew Brees, and he was questionable coming off shoulder surgery and at that time we still had Brad who had done a good job last year in relief of Daunte and we still had Daunte on the roster!

    It was not until after Brees had agreed to terms with the Saints that Miami then pursued Daunte and there was no way that the Vikes were going to committee 60 million dollars and a 10 million signing bonus to Brees with a questionable shoulder and having Daunte still due a 6 million roster bonus and a questionable knee!

    The Vikes would have had potentially 20 million in salary this year on 2 QB's that might not have beeen able to play, as it turns out Brees shoulder is fine and he is having a phenomenal year but that was not a sure thing in April.

    The only other FA QB's that were even worth considering were Kitna, Collins and Aaron Brooks (after the Saints singed Brees).
    RFA QB's the best was Schaub and the Vikes reportedly tried 2 or 3 times to make a deal for him, and Atlanta wouldn't accept the offer!
    We could have made a trade with the Lions for Harrington but there wasn't a poster on this board that wanted to do that.


    Plus we thought we had a # 1 wide receiver in Koren before he melted down and how was the coaching staff supposed to know that would happen?
    Childress depended too much on Brad Johnson being effective even though the organization didn't think he was worthy of starting pay.
    That tells me that they understood they would only have average QB play this year.
    I was behind Brad Johnson starting for the Vikes this year and actually thought he would do pretty good in getting things going with Childress WCO.
    I did not expect him to lay an egg like he has.
    That being said, I think Childress failed in having a decent QB plan for this year.

    He started out the year with McMahon and O'Sullivan as backups to Brad.
    They failed miserably and were cut.
    Now you've only got the castoffs to choose from.
    If you didn't want to spend the bucks for a questionable Brees I think they should have brought on someone like Griese or Kitna to make sure that the most important position on your team has some options if things go bad.
    TJ can't be mentioned because he was and is never seriously considered as a starter this year.

    On the WR thing, I was not criticizing past coaching decisions, I said we need to get a true #1 for next year.

    But there wasn't anybody besides Brees out there that was less of a risk than Brad Johnson at that time and they gambled that Brad had another season and they lost.
    But there was not a plethora of FA QB's just sitting there waiting to be signed.
    No one said there were a plethora of QB's waiting...we said there were other options to consider that weren't...especially once Zygi said he wouldn't pay anyone more than what Brad was making.
    There WERE other QB options out there, other quality back-up options, and one of those would be mighty nice to have NOW...but we shut the door on all options by low balling the $$$ issue.

    My main contention was with the lack of WR acquisitions.
    Especially when Branch was available.
    We let one go in FA and cut another, then thinking it was too late to go after a quality guy, one becomes available and we ignored it.
    THAT was a mistake IMO.

    Caine

  8. #58
    whackthepack is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Top 5 things

    "Caine" wrote:
    "whackthepack" wrote:
    "tastywaves" wrote:
    "whackthepack" wrote:
    "tastywaves" wrote:
    Besides the two guys jawing at each other, there's some pretty decent stuff in this thread.

    I think Digital makes good points about TWill (yes he has sucked this year, and he has proven that he should not have been picked #7) ,however, he still does have game breaking talent that needs to be utilized somehow.
    Brad Johnson is a big part of this problem, TWill's confidence is the other.
    He is not and should not be a #1 receiver at this point even though he was an early 1st round pick.
    He's got a long ways to be put in the same sentence as guys like TO and Steve Smith.
    But you can't sit there and tell me that this guy will never be able to catch a ball,
    I won't believe it.

    Why has Bethel been taken out of the offense lately?
    He had a few decent games and now nothing.

    I don't think the rest of the receivers have the ability to go 20 yrds down the field without pulling a hammy, so without a Bethel or TWill type guy forget about any kind of respect deep, but then again how do you get the ball to them with BJ playing.

    You put TJ in the game and you will see guys like Bethel and Troy making headlines in PP.O.
    2 game breaking TD's deep and probably 3-4 INT's to go with it.

    Caine makes a lot of good points as usual.
    Specifically about the offense (C+ rating sits about right with me), not pursuing a decent QB when they were available,
    needing to pursue a legitimate #1 receiver this offseason, having a QB with a cannon and mobility is required for this offense to work (aka Philly), offense is the reason we lost all but the New England game, .....



    What QB's are you talking about?
    The only good QB that was an available FA was Drew Brees, and he was questionable coming off shoulder surgery and at that time we still had Brad who had done a good job last year in relief of Daunte and we still had Daunte on the roster!

    It was not until after Brees had agreed to terms with the Saints that Miami then pursued Daunte and there was no way that the Vikes were going to committee 60 million dollars and a 10 million signing bonus to Brees with a questionable shoulder and having Daunte still due a 6 million roster bonus and a questionable knee!

    The Vikes would have had potentially 20 million in salary this year on 2 QB's that might not have beeen able to play, as it turns out Brees shoulder is fine and he is having a phenomenal year but that was not a sure thing in April.

    The only other FA QB's that were even worth considering were Kitna, Collins and Aaron Brooks (after the Saints singed Brees).
    RFA QB's the best was Schaub and the Vikes reportedly tried 2 or 3 times to make a deal for him, and Atlanta wouldn't accept the offer!
    We could have made a trade with the Lions for Harrington but there wasn't a poster on this board that wanted to do that.


    Plus we thought we had a # 1 wide receiver in Koren before he melted down and how was the coaching staff supposed to know that would happen?
    Childress depended too much on Brad Johnson being effective even though the organization didn't think he was worthy of starting pay.
    That tells me that they understood they would only have average QB play this year.
    I was behind Brad Johnson starting for the Vikes this year and actually thought he would do pretty good in getting things going with Childress WCO.
    I did not expect him to lay an egg like he has.
    That being said, I think Childress failed in having a decent QB plan for this year.



    .

    He started out the year with McMahon and O'Sullivan as backups to Brad.
    They failed miserably and were cut.
    Now you've only got the castoffs to choose from.
    If you didn't want to spend the bucks for a questionable Brees I think they should have brought on someone like Griese or Kitna to make sure that the most important position on your team has some options if things go bad.
    TJ can't be mentioned because he was and is never seriously considered as a starter this year.

    On the WR thing, I was not criticizing past coaching decisions, I said we need to get a true #1 for next year.

    But there wasn't anybody besides Brees out there that was less of a risk than Brad Johnson at that time and they gambled that Brad had another season and they lost.
    But there was not a plethora of FA QB's just sitting there waiting to be signed.
    No one said there were a plethora of QB's waiting...we said there were other options to consider that weren't...especially once Zygi said he wouldn't pay anyone more than what Brad was making.
    There WERE other QB options out there, other quality back-up options, and one of those would be mighty nice to have NOW...but we shut the door on all options by low balling the $$$ issue.

    My main contention was with the lack of WR acquisitions.
    Especially when Branch was available.
    We let one go in FA and cut another, then thinking it was too late to go after a quality guy, one becomes available and we ignored it.
    THAT was a mistake IMO.

    Caine

    Ziggy did say that, but name these QB's that we should have gone after because it was a pathetic year for FA QB's, and there wasn't anybody in my opinion that was worth going after.
    But if you can name somebody that a team signed that has done a good job this year and we could have signed beside Brees because he was not an option like I explained earlier.




    And maybe they didn't think Dion Branch was worth the draft picks and money he got, and I agree with them.

    10 games for Seattle this year.

    38 receptions 518 yards and 4 TD's

    Just not that impressive for a 1st round draft pick and 36 million dollars.
    What we've got here is failure to communicate.

  9. #59
    umaguma1979's Avatar
    umaguma1979 is offline Asst. Coach
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    Re: Top 5 things

    Keep in mind the NFL is a supply & demand market just everthing else.
    We assumed Koren Robinson was going to play a major role in the offense and he never did.
    We did not have many #1 optrions at that time other than to thrust Troy in the #1 role, who had been learning the #2 role on a new offense.
    Personally, I think learning a new offense is impacting his catch concentration.


    BJ is BJ.
    He has had a couple of bad games; but has won a couple of games for us.
    His receivers don't always make plays and his line does not always block.
    So the passing game is a little off.
    If the offense can just get hot these last four games, we still have a good shot and making a run.

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