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  1. #21
    Zeus's Avatar
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    Re: TJack or Sage - who to trade?

    V-Unit wrote:
    Zeus wrote:
    V-Unit wrote:
    I too have a lot of trouble assuming that the Vikings actually want to keep the project and trade either Sage or TJ.

    Even if Webb doesn't make the practice squad, so what? He has shown very little promise thus far, and everything that the FO has done this year has centered around winning it all in 2010.

    Nothing that we get in return for TJ or Sage will help us do that. A project QB won't help us either. This year must be treated as Super Bowl or Bust on all fronts. Cut Webb.

    -V-
    I know what my answer is to the question - but will you trade one Super Bowl in 2010 for 5 years of 4-12 or worse?

    The Vikings front office has to think about life after 2010. And in 2011, there are only 2 QBs currently under contract - Rosenfels and Webb.

    =Z=
    My answer, since we have won ZERO Championships is yes. However, more importantly is your willingness to deem Webb a "long-term solution".

    If the front office is thinking that way, we are in huge trouble. I would rather have them continue to treat TJack as the long term solution. Webb just shouldn't get any respect, because he hasn't earned any. If we gave him the reigns, we would almost certainly need to have a veteran QB, a la Brad and/or Gus. So why not just keep Sage and TJ?

    Am I saying the solution is already on our team? No, but I think Webb makes the situation worse. I would rather keep Sage and TJ this year, which gives us max insurance behind the old man, and draft a QB in a high round (as opposed to where we got Webb) next year.

    That is all assuming Webb doesn't make the practice squad. There are tons of solutions which simultaneously have us keeping the best 3 QBs and keeping our future in tact. I remember what a mess the DE situation had become before we got Jared Allen. We can find a long-term solution in many different ways.
    All true. Can't argue with much of what you wrote.

    Webb = Tarvaris 4 seasons ago. However, with Favre here, he won't be thrown into the fire as quickly. I think that helps him long term.

    =Z=

    Thanks to Josdin for the awesome sig!

  2. #22
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    Re: TJack or Sage - who to trade?

    I would take the risk and practice roster Webb. If someone wants to waste a 54man roster spot on him, go for it and give us that pick in the draft again.

    If that's not possible, trade Sage. They likely both do not have much trade value, but Sage has to have a little more value on the open market. Fits well as a #2 on a number of teams.
    We're bringing purple back.

  3. #23
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    Re: TJack or Sage - who to trade?

    Zeus wrote:
    V-Unit wrote:
    I too have a lot of trouble assuming that the Vikings actually want to keep the project and trade either Sage or TJ.

    Even if Webb doesn't make the practice squad, so what? He has shown very little promise thus far, and everything that the FO has done this year has centered around winning it all in 2010.

    Nothing that we get in return for TJ or Sage will help us do that. A project QB won't help us either. This year must be treated as Super Bowl or Bust on all fronts. Cut Webb.

    -V-
    I know what my answer is to the question - but will you trade one Super Bowl in 2010 for 5 years of 4-12 or worse?

    The Vikings front office has to think about life after 2010. And in 2011, there are only 2 QBs currently under contract - Rosenfels and Webb.

    =Z=
    I agree that you don't cut Webb. Although to be honest, I don't think our chances for winning a Super Bowl in the event our first 2 QBs go down regardless of who the third is... Seriously, if we have to go that deep in the QB corps, there are a lot of other problems...
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  4. #24
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    Re: TJack or Sage - who to trade?

    I will say ... watching Webb the other night I was impressed a lot more than I thought I would be.

    I was never on the Booty bandwagon and was figuring I would watch Webb and think "blah" as well, but he has "something" to him in my mind.

    He is obviously very raw. But I think his quickness on his feet is EXCEPTIONAL ... and while I don't want Michael Vick back there running non-stop, he would be a VERY difficult QB to contain if he had any accuracy downfield.

    I definitely want to see more out of the kid. That said, I still think he would make it to the practice squad.

  5. #25
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    Re: TJack or Sage - who to trade?

    Zeus wrote:
    V-Unit wrote:
    I too have a lot of trouble assuming that the Vikings actually want to keep the project and trade either Sage or TJ.

    Even if Webb doesn't make the practice squad, so what? He has shown very little promise thus far, and everything that the FO has done this year has centered around winning it all in 2010.

    Nothing that we get in return for TJ or Sage will help us do that. A project QB won't help us either. This year must be treated as Super Bowl or Bust on all fronts. Cut Webb.

    -V-
    I know what my answer is to the question - but will you trade one Super Bowl in 2010 for 5 years of 4-12 or worse?

    The Vikings front office has to think about life after 2010. And in 2011, there are only 2 QBs currently under contract - Rosenfels and Webb.

    =Z=
    in a fuckin heartbeat Z.
    besides, my ticker would probably give out in the closing seconds of a Viking super bowl win anyway. what do I care about following it up with bad teams.
    Why must you defend everything this FO does....to the point of making your self look like a yes man.

  6. #26
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    Re: TJack or Sage - who to trade?

    All three of these guys are projects in some way, shape or form. I mean Sage has been playing for 10 years, TJ is in his fifth season, and Webb is a project. If TJ and Sage have not already shown the ability to lead, then they never will. I say keep Sage, if Brett goes down, he will make the least amount of mistakes. TJ may be more explosive, but IMO he may be more prone to make mistakes. I don't think on the market, either of these guys are going to get you much. But waiting in vain for them to break out is just not realistic.

  7. #27
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    Re: TJack or Sage - who to trade?

    ConnecticutViking wrote:
    All three of these guys are projects in some way, shape or form. I mean Sage has been playing for 10 years, TJ is in his fifth season, and Webb is a project. If TJ and Sage have not already shown the ability to lead, then they never will. I say keep Sage, if Brett goes down, he will make the least amount of mistakes. TJ may be more explosive, but IMO he may be more prone to make mistakes. I don't think on the market, either of these guys are going to get you much. But waiting in vain for them to break out is just not realistic.
    Agreed.

    Caine

  8. #28
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    Re: TJack or Sage - who to trade?

    Caine wrote:
    ConnecticutViking wrote:
    All three of these guys are projects in some way, shape or form. I mean Sage has been playing for 10 years, TJ is in his fifth season, and Webb is a project. If TJ and Sage have not already shown the ability to lead, then they never will. I say keep Sage, if Brett goes down, he will make the least amount of mistakes. TJ may be more explosive, but IMO he may be more prone to make mistakes. I don't think on the market, either of these guys are going to get you much. But waiting in vain for them to break out is just not realistic.
    Agreed.

    Caine
    Me too.
    Though I think TJ or Sage may come around, I would not count on it.
    It's pretty plain to see the Vikings actually feel the same way.
    If Web shows some special spark in this pre-season, I would keep him. Otherwise I would cut him and keep the other two.

    Personally, I feel this team will bring in another veteran QB next year to replace Favre.

    If they had confidence in TJ or Sage, would they really be playing this Favre game the past 2 years?
    “What takes a quarterback to the next level is not arm strength or mobility or any of that stuff. It’s the ability to play on critical downs. Manage third downs, or red zones or four-minute or two-minute situations"
    Dilfer

  9. #29
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    Re:TJack or Sage - who to trade?

    Zeus wrote:
    It seems to be a foregone conclusion that Sage Rosenfels will be the odd-man out when the Vikings get down to three QBs now that Favre has returned.

    If we operation under the assumptions that:
    1. They want to keep Joe Webb as a long-term project
    2. They don't think they can get Webb onto the Practice squad

    Then - who do you trade/release?

    Tarvaris Jackson -
    Why trade him:
    * I can't recall if he will be a UFA or RFA after the 2010 season, but that plays into it. If he's a UFA, then he could easily walk and, if Sage is gone, then the Vikings are left with no one but Joe Webb under contract. Ouch.
    * He's injury prone. Fair or not, Tarvaris has had several significant game-missing injuries during his career as a Viking.
    * He's scattershot, at best. Who knows what a year sitting behind Favre has done for him. But his past track record indicates that his accuracy and decision-making are sketchy.
    Why keep him:
    * He's young.
    * He's got a strong arm and athletic skills to avoid the rush.
    * He knows the offense(or should).
    * He's Chilly's guy.

    Sage Rosenfels -
    Why trade him:
    * He's a 10-year vet who has failed to earn a starting job at any point in his career.
    * His arm is the weaker of the two.
    * He's being paid big money to be a 3rd QB. Maybe not that much to be a 2nd QB, but it's still not a small price for a backup.
    Why keep him:
    * He is a veteran who seems to have a better ability to read defenses than TJack (key word: seems).
    * He is a winner - at least at the college level. I have a personal interest in this point, as I am an Iowa State fan.
    * His performance in the pre-season game the other night was strong.
    * He's under contract through 2011.

    Just some thoughts on the top of my head. It seems that everyone (not just on PPO, but across the Viking Universe) thinks Sage is the odd-man out. The contract and potential to be down only to Webb scares me.

    What do others think?

    =Z=
    Excellent post/thread Z.

    Neither have great trade value really but if we could get maybe a 4th round pick from someone then i would trade and it would be Sage I'd trade away. I wouldn't be opposed to keeping them both but i really don't see them chancing getting Webb on the practice squad. Webb has raw ability and is clearly a project that they see could reap reward with the right moulding and effort.
    They could tweak the roster to keep 4 QB's but we are loaded with talent in other area's and cutting the minimum will be hard enough but to cut another to make room for the 4th QB would be an extremely difficult thing to do.

    It will be interesting to see how this works itself out.

  10. #30
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    Re:TJack or Sage - who to trade?

    Sage will be gone (Sage nor Tjack are worth more than a case of pringles and a box of double-stuff oreos on the market). Favre, TJack, Webb. Next year pick up another vet and work on the fast-track with Webb (2-3 yrs) while continually scanning the horizon for QB solutions. If Favre, I've never missed a game---ever, goes down then TJack is a capable backup. If the team goes to the third string QB (any team), then, they are in trouble.

    Some seem to forget how many asshats were brought in under the psychotic Denny Green regime....for that matter, the Vikings have rarely had a 'franchise' QB since their inception.

    This team is built solidly. Continually patching holes and building depth on the lines. It is built for success. I don't buy into the 'it's this year or nothing' mentality. There is no way the Vikings are not planning for the short- and long-term. You don't run a multi-millionaire business by thinking only short-term.
    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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