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  1. #101
    ultravikingfan's Avatar
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    Re: Star/Tribune again tries to kill stadium deal!

    "jimmymac" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    Why would any franchise owner in their right mind finance a new stadium this way when there are so many other communities out there that are lobbying the NFL for a team? Take San Antonio for instance. Or Las Vegas. Both want NFL teams, and have offered to front $$$ for them. If the host community doesn't offer some type of incentive for the stadium, the franshise will move to a city that will...
    All right. I'd love to see the Vikings come to Las Vegas. It would be easy for me to attend some games.

    How about it Vikings nation, everyone want to move to Nevada! It's warmer, I promise.
    How about you go to hell?

    :lol:

  2. #102
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    Re: Star/Tribune again tries to kill stadium deal!

    "jimmymac" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    Why would any franchise owner in their right mind finance a new stadium this way when there are so many other communities out there that are lobbying the NFL for a team? Take San Antonio for instance. Or Las Vegas. Both want NFL teams, and have offered to front $$$ for them. If the host community doesn't offer some type of incentive for the stadium, the franshise will move to a city that will...
    All right. I'd love to see the Vikings come to Las Vegas. It would be easy for me to attend some games.

    How about it Vikings nation, everyone want to move to Nevada! It's warmer, I promise.
    All right. I'd love to see you grab a knife, and slit your wrist.
    People who see life as anything more than pure entertainment are missing the point.

  3. #103
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    Re: Star/Tribune again tries to kill stadium deal!

    "ultravikingfan" wrote:
    How about you go to hell?

    :lol:
    "olson_10" wrote:
    All right. I'd love to see you grab a knife, and slit your wrist.
    WTF???!!!

    You guys can't take a joke?
    -- Sarcasm always turned on --

  4. #104
    Webby's Avatar
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    Re: Star/Tribune again tries to kill stadium deal!

    "jimmymac" wrote:
    "ultravikingfan" wrote:
    How about you go to hell?

    :lol:
    "olson_10" wrote:
    All right. I'd love to see you grab a knife, and slit your wrist.
    WTF???!!!

    You guys can't take a joke?

    No doubt, and its usually Jimmy who can't take the joke!!

    Lighten up.

    Stadium = yes!!

  5. #105
    Caine's Avatar
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    Re: Star/Tribune again tries to kill stadium deal!

    "purplepat" wrote:
    "Caine" wrote:
    Let me throw you an example closer to home.

    Janesville, Wisconsin. Home to General motors OLDEST automotive plant. Every year the Auto Industry Analysts (Who know about as much as Sports Analysts) say that it's on the chopping block. Recently, the City of Janesville - at their own expense - redid the roadways leading into/out of the GM complex to make it more condusive to GM needs. It was a serious outlay of cash, designed to do one thing only - keep GM here.

    Why would they do that? GM employs about 5,000 people here. They also affect at LEAST 3 local suppliers (One of which I work for) who employ an additional 2000-3000 people...all at liveable wages. If GM pulls out, the city dies...right here, right now...and everyone here knows it. And that's not just counting the taxes GM itself pays. If 1/7 of your population base, who earn about 1/4 of your taxable wage base are suddenly thrust into the unemployed arena, your town DIES.

    Just ask Beloit, Wisconsin (10 miles south of Janesville) what happens when a large employer leaves (Beloit Corp).

    The Vikings employ a large number of people. They pay taxes on a huge variety of things. Their employees purchase items from local retailers, and availe themselves of local Services. So, for each person they employ directly, and additional 3-4 layers back are impacted.

    The stadium itself generates revenue for football games, but it has other uses as well. Shows, concerts, conventions, etc...each time it is "booked" and people come into the area, they spend MONEY...which again supports those people providing goods and services.
    Caine,

    I dare say the Vikings do not employ a "large number of people". When you throw out the players, coaches, upper level management, etc., I'll bet you are left with a very small company with very few people making anything significant. It certainly isn't as if Minneapolis will wither and die if the Vikings left town, as a place like Janesville would if GM left.
    What about all the people employed by the Metrodome? What about all the people who work for - directly or indirectly - the Vikings and members of the organization?

    When you take the time to spread it out, you come up with quite a few people impacted DIRECTLY by the Vikings...which was my point with teh GM story locally. If the Vikings leave, Minnesota doesn't just lose direct revenue, they lose revenue from everyone who supplies the Vikings with ANY good or service, and the people who supply them, and the people who supply them, etc.

    And I never said Minneapolis would wither and die. In fact, being a large sicty, it will likely absorb the loss quite well...especially when State subsidies start rolling in. Further, the Metrodome itself will still exist...it will simply host other events.

    "purplepat" wrote:
    The stadium generates next to no revenue for football games. Likewise, the other "events" at the stadium certainly generate business in the local community, but I suspect the tax dollars generated are fairly insignficant when compared to the proposed cost of a new stadium. Let's face it, most people attending Vikings games or these other events are locals and not coming in from out of town. Bar/restaurant business is affected, but hotels/rental cars/airlines etc. probably do not see any signficant increase.
    The stadium certainly DOES generate revenue for football games. If it didn't, then there would be no seating, and all games would be on TV only. And, in the Vikings case, bigger stadium = more ticket sales = shot at Superbowl host = BIG MONEY.

    And hotels/rental cars/airlines etc will see a HUGE increase in Anoka county. What about out of state fans? Think they're all booking rooms in Bemidji? The airlines see increased weekend traffic too. Car rentals...not sure...I avoid those since I simply drive (cuz I'm poor).

    "purplepat" wrote:
    If a new stadium is going to generate all of these new revenue streams, then the "powers that be" should be able to figure out a way to let these new revenue streams foot the entire bill for the stadium (and the associated infrastructure and growth), without dipping into taxes already paid by the citizens, or raising taxes already paid by the citizens.
    Now you're being unreasonable. They already HAVE done that...it's called a minor sales tax hike. And, over time, they WILL wind up footing the bill entirely. But, think it through, who inevitably eats the increased taxes of - say - big business? US. Think Best Buy is going to foot the bill? HELL NO!! They'll simply raise prices.

    So, the solution is to tack on a minute - barely noticable - sales tax hike, and recoup your investment that way.

    "purplepat" wrote:
    I did a quick calculation earlier today to see what kind of ticket price increase could pay for a new stadium. Assuming a 70,000 seat stadium, sold out every game for 10 games a year, financed for 30 years at 3%, the price of each and every ticket would have to be increased by $46 to pay for the stadium. Do you think people who buy tickets to Vikings games would be willing to pay an extra $46 per ticket for a new stadium? If not, why not?
    I really would like to spend more time on this, but I'm on my lunch break from work and have to return. I believe that hiking ticket prices would be self-defeating...and I will explain why later (It has to do with spreading the burden).

    Caine

  6. #106
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    Re: Star/Tribune again tries to kill stadium deal!

    "jimmymac" wrote:
    "ultravikingfan" wrote:
    How about you go to hell?

    :lol:
    "olson_10" wrote:
    All right. I'd love to see you grab a knife, and slit your wrist.
    WTF???!!!

    You guys can't take a joke?
    Dude, I had a smiley :lol: after my post.

    That means I was just kidding man.

    I cannot speak for the other post though.

    Remember: smiley = JK!

  7. #107
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    Re: Star/Tribune again tries to kill stadium deal!

    As a non-Minnesotan I'll make this 3rd person observation...

    All you Vikings fans that live in Minnesota, rich and poor, that don't want to see the team move to another state, had better get together and get off your jiggly butts and elect some not-so-liberal politicians that will build a stadium that will make the owner happy.

    And Ultra:

    Just what would you do with your Vikings tattoo if the Vikings left town? :smile:

    Remember: smiley = JK!
    -- Sarcasm always turned on --

  8. #108
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    Re: Star/Tribune again tries to kill stadium deal!

    "jimmymac" wrote:
    As a non-Minnesotan I'll make this 3rd person observation...

    All you Vikings fans that live in Minnesota, rich and poor, that don't want to see the team move to another state, had better get together and get off your jiggly butts and elect some not-so-liberal politicians that will build a stadium that will make the owner happy.

    And Ultra:

    Just what would you do with your Vikings tattoo if the Vikings left town? :smile:

    Remember: smiley = JK!
    I would have it as a reminder of my first true love!

  9. #109
    whackthepack is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Star/Tribune again tries to kill stadium deal!

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "whackthepack" wrote:
    Sorry NoDak that is not the way it works in Minny, if you do not vote on your ballot it counts as a no vote on all referendums, this has come up in numerous elections here, and that is how it is!



    Jimmymac it is the Minnesota Vikings, not the Las Vegas Vikings!!!!!!!!!
    Good information. Thanks whackthepack. Glad it doesn't work that way in North Dakota! :grin:

    Good, informative post by the way.


    I have spoken to my representatives about this on a few occasions and they agree that it is not a fair system but nobody I have found yet will take on the issue of changing it. And it is the reason that anytime a stadium issue comes up these so called people right to vote groups know that it is an unfair vote and that the stadium well lose. So you get way left libs like Nick Coleman who trumpet their case in the newspaper and no politician is going to stand against it in the press! So you get no new stadiums, and for you people that still think it should be a referendum then change it to a fair vote yes against no for people that vote and I will be out there agreeing to it and supporting your right to vote. If the person that is voting chooses not to mark the ballet then it should not count as a no vote! And until this is changed it should never be used on any issue, not just the stadium because it is unfair and unjust!
    What we've got here is failure to communicate.

  10. #110
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    Re: Star/Tribune again tries to kill stadium deal!

    "purplepat" wrote:
    "ultravikingfan" wrote:
    While in my post is was outlining the jobs that would be created, a better community equals higher property value. Don't you want the value of your house to increase? I do. My property taxes are very high and we have a beautiful school system in our city.

    I think you are looking at the last statement a little broad. A lot of communities simply could not handle the expansion and yes development does pay off for communties; or else people would not want new stadiums, convention centers, and hotels built.
    I only care about my property value increasing if I am planning to sell and move away. I grew up in a rural area that I loved to death. Now, because of growth, I could never hope to afford to live there, not to mention the entire character of the place has changed and not for the better. Growth and expansion is not always good. The people who want growth and expansion are generally those who seek to profit from it.

    Your second statement really supports the "public referendum" issue. If the people of Anoka County want a new stadium for the Vikings, convention centers, hotels, etc., built at least in part from their tax dollars, then they will vote with their wallets and their ballots. If they don't wish to pay for it, the referendum will be defeated. Isn't this all what representative government is all about? The political and business leaders will have to convince the average Joe how they (the average Joe) will profit more later by paying more taxes now. I can guess how the developers will profit!!

    Here in Cincinnati, the voters of Hamilton County approved a tax increase to build new stadiums for the Bengals and Reds. After cost overruns, sweetheart deals done in backrooms, empty promises that haven't been met, etc. now many taxpayers say they never would have approved the tax increase if they knew then what they know now. There are even lawsuits filed by former government officials against the Bengals to try and change the lease terms that are heavily in favor of the Bengals and put undue burdens on the taxpayers. Now we are told the tax will have to be around longer than predicted as the population of Hamilton County is decreasing and the expected tax revenues are less than projections. The facts are, many of these referendums for public financing of stadiums go down in defeat. Los Angeles can't get a new stadium to lure an NFL team because the taxpayers don't want to pay for it.

    There has got to be a better way, another way to get funding for a new stadium without increasing general sales taxes, property taxes, or the like. Maybe you create an "economic development zone" around the stadium area where business taxes, hotel taxes, restaurant taxes, real estate taxes, income taxes etc. are increased. In other words, find a way for the development and the business it generates to pay for itself. Otherwise, how are you going to convince the little guy that he is going to be better off when all he sees is his wallet getting lighter?
    This post fits right in with the one I didn't have time to completely answer, so I'll answer this one instead.

    The reason the taqx SHOULD be a county-wide hike is so that you don't create a high-tax island. By forming the aforementioned "Economic Development Zone", and hiking taxes there, you actually create an "Economic Dead Zone".

    By spreading the tax throughout a larger area, you get to create a lower over-all tax. You also allow developers and businesses who stand to profit from the stadium to invest in the area closest to the stadium, where they stand the greatest likelyhood of seeing a return on their investment.

    By hiking taxes ONLY in that specific region, you will see much higher pricing in that specific region, and developers will instead crowd the fringe of that region and use the lower pricing (due to lower taxes) to draw business AWAY from that region.

    It's much the same principle as Malls. Do you want to pay the MUCH higher lease fees for the convenience of increased foot traffic, or pay a lower lease amount and keep your prices down? Many stores that thrive on foot traffic and the easy side-by-side comparrison shopping (Clothes, shoes, etc) thrive in a mall environment. Others, auto parts, hardware, etc, do not.

    Honestly, a 3/4 of a percent sales tax hike won't even be noticed...and that's the truth. In Cincinnati, what type of tax hike did they apply? Property tax? And, at what rate was it hiked (What percentage)?

    What people opposed to these deals do - and newspaper hacks trying to generate controversy - is extrapolate a number at it's highest point...like the $225 per family of 5...then toss out the BIG number and let peoples natural fears run wild. Why? Because $45 per person annually isn't that big of a deal...no one gets excited about $45 per year.

    But, in return, anyone offering goods or services in that region will see increased sales, which leads to increased profits, which leads to increased wages, which leads to better standard of living, etc.

    How many other Government funded programs actually give a return? Welfare? AFDC? How about all the money we pay the Feds so they can boost the economies of foreign nations (So big business can build factories there, take advantage of cheap labor, and close US plants)?

    This time, our money benefits US. And that doesn't happen all that often.

    Caine

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