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  1. #101
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    Re: Stadium updates - including Arden Hills

    Quote Originally Posted by "jmcdon00" #1097829
    Well said, and I can agree with it. I think the taxpayers have clearly voiced there opinion that it is not worth it(or would if it was put to a vote). Now it remains to be seen what the politicians that represent those taxpayers say.
    I honestly haven't seen anything that would indicate that the taxpayers would clearly voice their opinion one way or the other. I have seen vocal groups from both sides - but what the general public thinks is a relative unknown. Proponents of public spending can easily find evidence that the majority of the people think it is worth it, opponents of public spending can do the same.

    As far as whether the politicians represent the global taxpayer demand... that is an interesting issue. In a representative democracy the politicians are elected to represent their constituants, not necessarily their constituants opinion. Their job is to act in the best interest of their constituants and vote accordingly. Sometimes that means that they may vote in a way that disagrees with the majority opinion of their constituant base. It sounds bad, but this is actually a good thing.

    One thing that I have noticed over the years as I have become more and more involved in local government is that the general public rarely takes the time to research issues that they are allowed to vote on, and instead rely on their own opinion and views to decide what to vote. As an example, here in West Fargo we are facing a serious issue with overcrowding of our schools. We are in desperate need of new facilities, and yet the bond has failed the last three times it went to vote. Most of the reasons people gave for voting no turned out to be completely false, despite the over abundance of information out there. Some people said that we didn't need schools until the kids were here (they are here - 13 out of 15 schools are at or will be over the state mandated max capacity, even if no more kids are born and nobody else moves in to the community). Some people said that we were building "palaces" instead of schools (even though the price per student is cheaper than the schools they are comparing against). Some people said that we were making up numbers to fund a high superintendant salary (even the numbers were confirmed by three independent demographers, and the super's salary has nothing to do with number of schools). And so on...

    My point in all this is that often times the general public does not educate themselves enough to make informed decisions about issues like this. I bet that if you ask 100 people on the street the details about the stadium bill, 80 would only know the general specifics about the proposal, and would have no idea what kind of impact it would have on the general fund, local economic projections, etc. How many do you think would know when the roads would be updated regardless of the stadium? Is this 100+ million in roads something that will have to be spent in the next 5 years or so any? Hell, I don't even know the answer to that.

    This is why we elect representatives. We elect people whose general views tend to align with our own, and then we trust them to make informed choices that benefit the majority.

    I am hoping that the politicians make decisions that benefit their constituant base, and work out the cheapest possible deal for the taxpayers that will keep the Vikings in the state. At this time, with only a handful of days left, I think that the cheapest possible deal is the Arden Hills deal - mostly because it is the ONLY possible deal. This is what happens when you keep pushing it off until the last possible minute. You rarely get the best deal.

    (Sorry for the rant - we have another school referendum coming up here on Tuesday, and I guess I am a little preoccupied by it. )
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  2. #102
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    Re: Stadium updates - including Arden Hills

    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1097868
    IMHO the cap on the total cost should be no more than around 650 million.
    Believe it or not, I am with you there. Although I think a fixed roof is the best design, that is beside the point.

    Unfortunately, the time when a $650 million stadium was feasible has come and gone. It was six years ago in Anoka County. And also unfortunately there were people who thought that this wasn't a very good deal for the state and community, so it was killed. In comparison, that deal is looking pretty damn good now.

    Minnesota has kept pushing this issue off until the absolute late minute, and it is going to cose them in the end.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  3. #103
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    Re: Stadium updates - including Arden Hills

    Quote Originally Posted by "NodakPaul" #1097989
    Believe it or not, I am with you there. Although I think a fixed roof is the best design, that is beside the point.
    And I prefer the less expensive, traditional open air facility.

    Unfortunately, the time when a $650 million stadium was feasible has come and gone. It was six years ago in Anoka County. And also unfortunately there were people who thought that this wasn't a very good deal for the state and community, so it was killed. In comparison, that deal is looking pretty damn good now.
    Again, It was the Vikings playing footsie with Minneapolis that pissed off Anoka County that submarined that deal. It had ZERO to do with the state legislature and all to do with Minneapolis, the MSFC and the Vikings owner Ziggy Wilf who did a 180 and decided he wanted to stay in the downtown location.

    http://www.stadiumsofprofootball.com/future/VikingsStadium.htm
    However, in November 2006 the Vikings and Anoka County parted ways and the team officially announced there preference for a new stadium in downtown Minneapolis. The Metropolitan Sports Facilities Commission has now hired an urban planner to conduct a revitalization study of the east side of downtown Minneapolis. In April 2007, the Vikings proposed that a new retractable roof stadium be constructed on the site of their current home, the Metrodome. Furthermore the team has began buying land surrounding the Metrodome
    That one is on the ownership. Actually the team is the one who always runs off halfway through a plan instead of seeing it through and to this day they have NEVER released a financial plan that demonstrates where the revenue will come from and whether that revenue can sustain the facility.


    And I am STILL waiting for some stadium expert guru guy to show me where the Vikings are going to generate 200-250 million dollars in additional revenue to pay for this stadium when the similar stadium the cowboys has 10,000- 30,000 more seats to generate the revenue.

    In the end, while you like to throw out the state as the culprit for the woes of the Vikings and past teams who have left the biggest problem is this state just does not have the fan base that supports teams through thick and thin like some other markets do.

    The Lakers left not because they didn't get a building but because LA was a bigger market and the fans here were plain not going to the games.

    The Stars left in part because of the arena deal but in reality that could have been worked out but more so because Dallas was a bigger market that would draw more fans.

    If you look at the attendance of the stars from 1989 to 1993 the average attendance fluctuated between 7800 and 13,900.Then the team moved to Dallas and attendance went up to and average of about 15,000 for the next 4 years, 18,000 from 1997-present.

    Now, I understand that the old Met only seated 15000 or so which made seating 18000 impossible but the fact is they were not able to put that many butts in the seats anyway and Dallas was.Interestingly the Wild and their new ownership has done a good job of keeping the fans interested and filling the seats. But the Stars group did not do this and IMHO that right there is the reason they left and were not viable here.




    Minnesota has kept pushing this issue off until the absolute late minute, and it is going to cose them in the end.
    No, the ownership has been running around sniffing every clump of dirt in the metro like a buck in heat trailing a herd of does and every time they get ready to close the deal they get distracted by a new, sweeter smelling scent and take off after that one instead of just sticking to the one they have right there in front of them.

  4. #104
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    Re: Stadium updates - including Arden Hills

    Quote Originally Posted by "NodakPaul" #1097989
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1097868
    IMHO the cap on the total cost should be no more than around 650 million.
    Believe it or not, I am with you there. Although I think a fixed roof is the best design, that is beside the point.

    Unfortunately, the time when a $650 million stadium was feasible has come and gone. It was six years ago in Anoka County. And also unfortunately there were people who thought that this wasn't a very good deal for the state and community, so it was killed. In comparison, that deal is looking pretty damn good now.

    Minnesota has kept pushing this issue off until the absolute late minute, and it is going to cose them in the end.
    And the longer they put it off, the more expensive it gets. What part of that don't they grasp yet?

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  5. #105
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    Re: Stadium updates - including Arden Hills

    Quote Originally Posted by "singersp" #1098010
    Quote Originally Posted by "NodakPaul" #1097989
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1097868
    IMHO the cap on the total cost should be no more than around 650 million.
    Believe it or not, I am with you there. Although I think a fixed roof is the best design, that is beside the point.

    Unfortunately, the time when a $650 million stadium was feasible has come and gone. It was six years ago in Anoka County. And also unfortunately there were people who thought that this wasn't a very good deal for the state and community, so it was killed. In comparison, that deal is looking pretty damn good now.

    Minnesota has kept pushing this issue off until the absolute late minute, and it is going to cose them in the end.
    And the longer they put it off, the more expensive it gets. What part of that don't they grasp yet?
    Because the owners apparently would rather play politics than to produce one single, comprehensive, fiscally defined plan. They would rather jump from location to location and play one locality against another than to just sit down and get the deal done. That is why nothing has gotten done since the time Red was here,

  6. #106
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    Re: Stadium updates - including Arden Hills

    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1098021

    nothing has gotten done since the time Red was here
    WOW!

    Can't wait for Caine's reply to that one.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  7. #107
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    Re: Stadium updates - including Arden Hills

    Quote Originally Posted by "singersp" #1098027
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1098021

    nothing has gotten done since the time Red was here
    WOW!

    Can't wait for Caine's reply to that one.
    I would appreciate yours

  8. #108
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    Re: Stadium updates - including Arden Hills

    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1098029
    Quote Originally Posted by "singersp" #1098027
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1098021

    nothing has gotten done since the time Red was here
    WOW!

    Can't wait for Caine's reply to that one.
    I would appreciate yours
    I believe the Anoka deal got farther along thru congress than anything Red did.

    The DNR killed that deal, not Wilf changing his mind & focusing on Minneapolis.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  9. #109
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    Re: Stadium updates - including Arden Hills

    Vikings stadium: Naming-rights dispute

    Two entities have laid claim to revenue from naming rights for the proposed facility in Arden Hills, Minn., a gulf that might be negotiable but still must be addressed before a legislative vote can be taken.


    http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/40645/vikings-stadium-naming-rights-dispute

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  10. #110
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    Re: Stadium updates - including Arden Hills

    Quote Originally Posted by "singersp" #1098033
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1098029
    Quote Originally Posted by "singersp" #1098027
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1098021

    nothing has gotten done since the time Red was here
    WOW!

    Can't wait for Caine's reply to that one.
    I would appreciate yours
    I believe the Anoka deal got farther along thru congress than anything Red did.

    The DNR killed that deal, not Wilf changing his mind & focusing on Minneapolis.
    You are basing that on one article provided by the property owner who lost a shit ton of money when Anoka pulled out of the negotiations.

    There is far more print stating that the Vikings started to pit the dome site against Anoka and that Anoka would not be played so they pulled out. Shortly after that Wilf started to buy property in the area of the dome which leads me to believe he had been working behind the scenes with the MSFC and Minneapolis on something.

    http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2006/11/20/vikes/
    http://www.stadiumsofprofootball.com/future/VikingsStadium.htm


    Also:

    That Anoka plan, if I remember correctly was started by Red, not wilf. so that point is moot.

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