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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minniman View Post
    That begs the question: are the Patriots and Seahawks drafting better, or are the players just coached better? It is likely both, but both teams got lucky with Brady and Wilson sliding out of day one of the draft.
    Quote Originally Posted by midgensa View Post
    This is a fantastic point. I think that the Seahawks and Patriots are VERY good examples of getting everything out of players.

    I would love to see our staffs be able to do this more often. I think it might be possible under the new regime.
    It would be a fantastic point that it was all the fault of poor coaching & simply not bad selections by Spielman, but IMO, it's not. Had these bad players actually panned out on other teams rosters that took them with better coaching, you'd have a point. Unfortunately I don't think any of those players went on to light up the league anywhere else or even improve significantly.

    On the flip side, we have several good players that have excelled under the same tutelage.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    How was he not in charge? It was his draft board. His scouting department. Chlly had a say on what the team needed but it was up to him to find the player. Chilly didn't say.... hey lets take this guy over this guy. That was speilman's call. When a position was drafted... he decided who that position was... Think about it. Chilly didn't want Favre... yet Favre was on the team. When it came to player decisions... it was Speilman. The trade for Rosencopter etc.
    Chilly was the one to go down and personally escort Farve to the Vikings, not Spielman. Chilly was the one who went down to personally talk to Harvin to ascertain whether he would be a problem child if we drafted him, not Spielman. There are more instances of Chilly having significant input on the draft and free agents but my old mind can't come up with them all right now.
    Last edited by marshallvike; 03-28-2014 at 07:58 AM.
    Why must you defend everything this FO does....to the point of making your self look like a yes man.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    It would be a fantastic point that it was all the fault of poor coaching & simply not bad selections by Spielman, but IMO, it's not. Had these bad players actually panned out on other teams rosters that took them with better coaching, you'd have a point. Unfortunately I don't think any of those players went on to light up the league anywhere else or even improve significantly.

    On the flip side, we have several good players that have excelled under the same tutelage.
    Once you let the chicken spoil, it's hard for anyone to make a gourmet dinner out of it. Our former staffs let a lot of chickens go bad.
    Why must you defend everything this FO does....to the point of making your self look like a yes man.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshallvike View Post
    Chilly was the one to go down and personally escort Farve to the Vikings, not Spielman. Chilly was the one who went down to personally talk to Harvin to ascertain whether he would be a problem child if we drafted him, not Spielman. There are more instances of Chilly having significant input on the draft and free agents but my old mind can't come up with them all right now.
    +1

    There s only two things stopping you - fear and common sense!! The Truth you CAN"T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!!!!

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshallvike View Post
    Once you let the chicken spoil, it's hard for anyone to make a gourmet dinner out of it. Our former staffs let a lot of chickens go bad.
    I don't really think that there has been a whole lot of coaching going on in the last two coaching staffs.

    There s only two things stopping you - fear and common sense!! The Truth you CAN"T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!!!!

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by tarkenton10 View Post
    I am also sure that if Chilly said he really wanted a player sitting on the draft board that Spielman would have drafted that player for him. So to put the drafts all on him is not realistic given there were two other people with input. I will give you an analogy maybe not a good one but one nonetheless, I am driving with my family and I make the final decision where eat. I want to eat at KFC but my wife and kids want to eat at Wendy's; where do you think we will eat even though it is my decision. He had pressure from the other two to pick their guy in the draft. How many GMs are going to pick guys that the coach didn't want, especially one with as much power as Chilly had at the time? Spielman had a lot of pressure to pick guys he didn't want to pick, that is my opinion of course and we seem to have a difference of opinion.

    My reasoning for thinking that he didn't get to pick his own players (or felt the need to pick someone else's player) is by looking at the stark contrast in his drafts before and after his promotion. He had average to above average drafts before his promotion then after his promotion he had two really good drafts IMO. What changed the past two drafts?
    That is an excellent point. However, it is one i conceded. If it was between a center and a cb... then of course input was desired on who should be selected but the rankings of the individual players in a position was up to spielman. So in round 2 Speilman selected the centers with round 2 potential. Chilly and Co wasn't going to select random round 5 center and say I want him in round two over the guy Speilman had ranked 3 rounds higher. That's why i said the selection of a position... coach and VP decision... the selection of the player... Spielman.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by tarkenton10 View Post
    +1
    That's like saying to bake a cake you take it out of the oven.
    There is a lot more that goes on before that. Since chilly picked him up.... how does that mean that he was the one that started the process on Favre. That simply means he picked him up.

    As for Harvin, I never argued that Chilly didn't have say and input. I simply said that the ranking and grading of players in their positions were done by Speilman. which means he is at fault for selecting a bunch of 5th round Cbs in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. His draft boards... his draft. I also give him all the credit for finding Robison and Griffen in the 4th. However, you can't have it both ways. You can't credit him with great finds and then blame coaches for bust.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    That's like saying to bake a cake you take it out of the oven.
    There is a lot more that goes on before that. Since chilly picked him up.... how does that mean that he was the one that started the process on Favre. That simply means he picked him up.

    As for Harvin, I never argued that Chilly didn't have say and input. I simply said that the ranking and grading of players in their positions were done by Speilman. which means he is at fault for selecting a bunch of 5th round Cbs in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. His draft boards... his draft. I also give him all the credit for finding Robison and Griffen in the 4th. However, you can't have it both ways. You can't credit him with great finds and then blame coaches for bust.
    Good to see you giving Spielman some credit, of course, until he hits a home run on every pick he still needs to pick up his game. That is what a fan should demand.

    On the whole draft board and ranking thing, do you really believe it is Rick that puts that together by himself? I highly doubt that Rick goes out and evaluates every player and then puts his board together without a lot of input from the scouts and coaches who spend the majority of their time evaluating these players. Rick is the guy that pulls the trigger on draft day and helps coordinate the talent evaluators, but there is a lot of coordination building up to that point.
    Starting with the coaching staff telling the talent evaluators (under Spielman) the type of players they are looking for to play in their systems.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    That's like saying to bake a cake you take it out of the oven.
    There is a lot more that goes on before that. Since chilly picked him up.... how does that mean that he was the one that started the process on Favre. That simply means he picked him up.

    As for Harvin, I never argued that Chilly didn't have say and input. I simply said that the ranking and grading of players in their positions were done by Speilman. which means he is at fault for selecting a bunch of 5th round Cbs in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. His draft boards... his draft. I also give him all the credit for finding Robison and Griffen in the 4th. However, you can't have it both ways. You can't credit him with great finds and then blame coaches for bust.
    I tend to blame them all for the finds and the busts, if there is a great find the they should all get the credit, if they fail they are to blame IMO.

    There s only two things stopping you - fear and common sense!! The Truth you CAN"T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!!!!

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    Actually I won't. I'm the same guy that was warning about how bad this team was after Peterson's great season when everyone was predicting 12 wins. The fact remains...we are an awful team. That just got a hell of a lot worst. Not every team has a shit load of pro bowlers but we are average to bad at 3-4 positions on the OL. I never fall in love with potential so add 2-4 on the DL. 2 on the LB level, 2/ 4 at the DB level. And we have 1 true WR. Plenty of potential and splash but low production. Our Qb situation is the laughing stock of the league. We simply are not a good team and haven't been one for a long time. 1 good Qb year int he past 7 years is awful.
    So even if the Vikings start winning, even up to winning the Super Bowl, you will still maintain the team is shit? That doesn't make any sense at all, unless your glass is so half empty it's a vacuum.

    I disagree about our OL totally; I think the bad play we saw last year had more to do with them being unwilling to risk hurt or injury for an idiot QB who was just as likely to throw the ball away or to the other team as one of our receivers. I was a center when I was younger, and let me tell you... that is completely demoralizing. Even if you do your job to perfection, you still might be chasing some CB down the field to prevent the other team from scoring a TD.

    We won a few games last year we should not have, in my opinion. To me, that says the team was better than I thought it was, especially under Cassel's leadership. But then, I am an optimist.
    Men are moved by two levers only: fear and self interest.

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