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  1. #81
    bleedpurple is offline Ring of Fame
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    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    Have whatever opinion you want - makes no difference to me. I agree with you regarding some of the 4th round decisions, and disagree with you regarding others, but that is also beside the point.

    My point was that no matter what Spielman did, there would be people who complained about him. Had we drafted the way you wanted and drafted purely on talent with no regard to character, then people would have been complaining about that - especially during a stadium push.

    You complain about us taking a kicker when there were "talents" like Travis Lewis out there. And yet let's see who makes the active roster and who doesn't. Hell, I would actually give the edge to the kicker. There were a lot of teams who felt that Lewis wasn't much of a talent - we went late in the 7th round after all. Arguing and complaining about 6th and 7th round picks is a little ridiculous seeing as they are pretty much a crap shoot regardless. So why not draft a kicker? what did he have to lose?
    Ok, let's argue about the 2nd first round pick then..

    .... We gave up a top 3 4th round selection to trade up and take the 2nd best safety in the draft in Harris... While Harris is a decent enough player i guess... we'll see.. He's not really an impact difference maker.. which is what you try and draft in the 1st round... I think if we had waited Harris would have been there...

    Even if he wasn't... With the teams we face in our division.. I think he could have waited and taken a WR if harris wasn't there... With safety's we could have drafted a fast long corner with one of our 4th round picks and moved him to safety... I think that' would have been a better use of the pick instead of drafting a safety who runs a 4.7...

    Additionally, what the HELL is up with all these Notre Dame players... SHIT!!!...

    2 WR's from Arkansas... and in the late 4th round??...

    We filled lots of needs but i'm afraid our draft was very mediocre outside of the 3rd round... I thought we did a horrible job IMO...

    PPL bitch about Spielman because he sucks and over thinks shit all the time... paralysis by over-analysis...

    very average draft... I doubt we see much contribution by guys drafted in rounds 4-7.. which is the biggest knock on Spielman...

    We could have done a much better job..

    AND I DON'T CARE WHAT ANYBODY SAYS....KHALIL WAS A NO-BRAINER PICK!!!!
    Last edited by bleedpurple; 04-30-2012 at 09:13 AM.

  2. #82
    bleedpurple is offline Ring of Fame
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    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    Have whatever opinion you want - makes no difference to me. I agree with you regarding some of the 4th round decisions, and disagree with you regarding others, but that is also beside the point.

    My point was that no matter what Spielman did, there would be people who complained about him. Had we drafted the way you wanted and drafted purely on talent with no regard to character, then people would have been complaining about that - especially during a stadium push.

    You complain about us taking a kicker when there were "talents" like Travis Lewis out there. And yet let's see who makes the active roster and who doesn't. Hell, I would actually give the edge to the kicker. There were a lot of teams who felt that Lewis wasn't much of a talent - we went late in the 7th round after all. Arguing and complaining about 6th and 7th round picks is a little ridiculous seeing as they are pretty much a crap shoot regardless. So why not draft a kicker? what did he have to lose?
    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    We won't truly know the impact of this draft for 4-5 years...and I'm sure that some will point back then and say, "Remember when i said (insert player here) was a beast/bust? Told you so!!".

    Here's MY stance:

    1: Marrdro, as usual, has put a lot of double talk into his draft analysis...I'm fairly certain I disagree with most of it, but I'll have to reread it since my first run through attempt put me to sleep.

    2: I disagree that a premier LT is a necessity in today's NFL. I think we blew it picking Kalil ONLY from the standpoint that we have greater needs than the LT position, and that position could have been filled later, and cheaper. Kalil will likely be a great player (we hope), but I believe the "LT Need" theory to be mostly hot air and bullshit. I think WR was the primary need position (once Luck and RGIII were off the board) for us, and we blew it there.

    3: Speaking of WR....we drafted the 18th WR in this draft. Then we drafted his childhood friend...likely for a "feel good" story. Problem is, neither one addresses our true area of need at the WR position. Where is the outside field stretcher that we need? One is a poor-man's Percy Harvin...which would be nice except for the fact that we HAVE Percy Harvin. The other is a project guy who lacks separation ability beyond 5-10 yards. Wonderful. Even Kalil won't keep them off Ponder's back when he has NO ONE to throw to...

    4: The rest of the draft was alright...maybe. We'll see as time passes. I think our need at DB is augmented by our lack of ability to create problems up front - ergo, had we drafted DT/LB with the ability to raise hell, our secondary wouldn't get pasted every week. But, instead, we went after DB's....


    As I said before, we have SO many holes to fill that someone is going to find a silver lining in this draft. Problem is, from my POV, we didn't address our CORE problems very well, which means that we will continue to struggle to put up points, or to stop the more explosive teams out there.

    I don't entirely blame Spielman though...I also blame Wilf for hiring him. Does he have the team up for sale yet?

    Caine
    I feel you on waiting till the 4th round to address WR... I thought we coulda done that when we traded back up into the first... With that said, I disagree with the assertion that LT isn't impactful...

    With all the teams with so called bad LT's.. they all have one thing in common..... An elite QB.... name one who doens't.... Elite QB's get the ball out quickly... a'la Favre in 2009 when everyone thought our line was so dominant... it was Favre getting the ball out....

    So if you don't have an elite QB.. you supplement that with a great o-line.. Watch how much time Tom Brady has to throw... its utterly insane when he can stand back there flat footed for multiple seconds..

    the rest of your post i agree with... but LT was the right choice at that point in the draft.. besides AD get hit behind the LOS more than any other back in the league... plus we gave up the 5th most sacks last year... We dont' want ponder to turn into David Carr or Tim Couch or Blane Gabbert by not protecting him...

    although, i think he will regardless....

  3. #83
    mrhurriicane is offline Waterboy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    3: Speaking of WR....we drafted the 18th WR in this draft. Then we drafted his childhood friend...likely for a "feel good" story. Problem is, neither one addresses our true area of need at the WR position. Where is the outside field stretcher that we need? One is a poor-man's Percy Harvin...which would be nice except for the fact that we HAVE Percy Harvin. The other is a project guy who lacks separation ability beyond 5-10 yards. Wonderful. Even Kalil won't keep them off Ponder's back when he has NO ONE to throw to...
    The thing with Childs is that without his injury he could have been a 1st or 2nd round pick. He lacked the ability to separate last year because of his torn patella he wasn't 100% from. That was evident in his combine performance but he rebounded nicely at his pro day. If he gets back to the form he was at when he won the Biletnikoff award in 2010 then the Vikings have a 6'3" 4.4 receiver with solid hands whom they drafted in the late 4th round. I like the Wright pickup because he has speed and can return. Yes he is a poor man's Percy with the looks of things right now but remember Percy's versatility (put him in the backfield and put Wright in the slot in certain situations) and injury concerns. It's good to have someone to back him up that actually plays like him.

  4. #84
    bleedpurple is offline Ring of Fame
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrhurriicane View Post
    The thing with Childs is that without his injury he could have been a 1st or 2nd round pick. He lacked the ability to separate last year because of his torn patella he wasn't 100% from. That was evident in his combine performance but he rebounded nicely at his pro day. If he gets back to the form he was at when he won the Biletnikoff award in 2010 then the Vikings have a 6'3" 4.4 receiver with solid hands whom they drafted in the late 4th round. I like the Wright pickup because he has speed and can return. Yes he is a poor man's Percy with the looks of things right now but remember Percy's versatility (put him in the backfield and put Wright in the slot in certain situations) and injury concerns. It's good to have someone to back him up that actually plays like him.
    key words in that post...

    without his injury

    he could have been

    he lacked the abilty to separate

    torn patella

    if he gets back to form

    he was at

    Coulda bee's woulda bee's shoulda bee's dont make no honey... it was a gamble... we shoulda got a receiver earlier in the draft...

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by bleedpurple View Post
    Ok, let's argue about the 2nd first round pick then..

    .... We gave up a top 3 4th round selection to trade up and take the 2nd best safety in the draft in Harris... While Harris is a decent enough player i guess... we'll see.. He's not really an impact difference maker.. which is what you try and draft in the 1st round... I think if we had waited Harris would have been there...

    Even if he wasn't... With the teams we face in our division.. I think he could have waited and taken a WR if harris wasn't there... With safety's we could have drafted a fast long corner with one of our 4th round picks and moved him to safety... I think that' would have been a better use of the pick instead of drafting a safety who runs a 4.7...

    Additionally, what the HELL is up with all these Notre Dame players... SHIT!!!...

    2 WR's from Arkansas... and in the late 4th round??...

    We filled lots of needs but i'm afraid our draft was very mediocre outside of the 3rd round... I thought we did a horrible job IMO...

    PPL bitch about Spielman because he sucks and over thinks shit all the time... paralysis by over-analysis...

    very average draft... I doubt we see much contribution by guys drafted in rounds 4-7.. which is the biggest knock on Spielman...

    We could have done a much better job..

    AND I DON'T CARE WHAT ANYBODY SAYS....KHALIL WAS A NO-BRAINER PICK!!!!
    Khalil was a no brainer, I agree. The only way Spielman could have screwed that pick up would have been to do something like draft Blackmon. Don't get me wrong, Blackmon is a beast, but the depth in this draft at WR was pretty damn good, and simply didn't justify spending a #3 overall on a WR. No Brainer or not, I still like the way he played Tampa and Cleveland against each other to move down a pick and get some extras. I think that was a very good move.

    As to Smith, I can certainly see where you are coming from here. Waiting to see if he was going to be there in the second, and going WR if he wasn't would have been a decent strategy as well. But to be honest, I don't think that Smith would have been there in the second, and IMHO the draft was deeper at WR. Now that didn't mean that I expected us to wait until the 4th to address the WR - I was actually expecting a trade back up into the second... but it is what it is.

    Just because we might have done something differently doesn't mean that Spielman's choices were wrong. They were different, and without the benefit of hindsight four years from now we can't say who is wrong and who is right.

    Overall, I think that this draft wasn't perfect, but it was certainly better than average, and better than most of our recent drafts. And that is the general feeling among most people who make a living off the world of football as well. That, to me, is a vote of confidence in Spielman.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by bleedpurple View Post
    key words in that post...

    without his injury

    he could have been

    he lacked the abilty to separate

    torn patella

    if he gets back to form

    he was at

    Coulda bee's woulda bee's shoulda bee's dont make no honey... it was a gamble... we shoulda got a receiver earlier in the draft...
    I agree completely - he was a gamble, and we should have addressed WR earlier in the draft...

    HOWEVER, I like this gamble, and I think he was a good pick at the position he was picked at (134th overall).
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by bleedpurple View Post
    key words in that post...

    without his injury

    he could have been

    he lacked the abilty to separate

    torn patella

    if he gets back to form

    he was at

    Coulda bee's woulda bee's shoulda bee's dont make no honey... it was a gamble... we shoulda got a receiver earlier in the draft...
    That's why you take him in the 4th. He has the potential to be a good NFL level receiver, but it's followed with question marks. People complain because we don't take any chances on athletes and they complain when we take the safe pick. Spielman did a little of both in this draft, and time will tell if he ends up with quality players in this draft.

    Here's what I would expect from this year's draft for me to give it a respectable grade:
    -Top 5 pick (Kalil) needs to be a franchise player with multiple pro bowls. Any given year there are supposedly 5-7 elite players, when your picking at #3, you better get one. Especially if it's a position of need.
    -Second pick (late first round - Harrison) needs to be a starter from day one and significantly improve the play of our secondary
    -Third pick (Robinson - 3rd round) - Needs to be a solid contributor this year and move into starter role by year two
    -The other 7 picks -- 3-4 of them make the roster and are solid contributors in 2012. 1-2 moving into starting roles over the next few years.


    Overall, if you can get 4 eventual starters in any given draft year along with 6-7 solid contributors, I think you have a pretty decent draft. With the picks we had and the needs we have, I think we need at least 4 starters to call it successful. Not year one starters but eventual starters by years 2-3.

    Anything more than this I would consider to be an excellent draft, anything less and it goes down.

    Everybody has their favorite players and their opinions on our needs, but we have no idea how our scouting staff graded the players or how our coaching staff emphasized needs. Spielman's job is to improve our team by working the draft to optimize our ability to land the best players according to the information he is given.

    It would be much easier to grade this draft having that information, but without it, we'll just have to wait to see how these guys deliver. At the end of the day that is the only thing that matters.

  8. #88
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    The more I think about this draft, the less and less I like it. I can't see Harrison Smith being successful in this division and the WR's we drafted are just more mid-level talent guys.

    Seems like more the same from Spielman, it will just take a year or two before everyone realizes he tanked it again.
    Disclaimer: I'm an idiot.

  9. #89
    bleedpurple is offline Ring of Fame
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    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    Have whatever opinion you want - makes no difference to me. I agree with you regarding some of the 4th round decisions, and disagree with you regarding others, but that is also beside the point.

    My point was that no matter what Spielman did, there would be people who complained about him. Had we drafted the way you wanted and drafted purely on talent with no regard to character, then people would have been complaining about that - especially during a stadium push.

    You complain about us taking a kicker when there were "talents" like Travis Lewis out there. And yet let's see who makes the active roster and who doesn't. Hell, I would actually give the edge to the kicker. There were a lot of teams who felt that Lewis wasn't much of a talent - we went late in the 7th round after all. Arguing and complaining about 6th and 7th round picks is a little ridiculous seeing as they are pretty much a crap shoot regardless. So why not draft a kicker? what did he have to lose?
    Quote Originally Posted by tastywaves View Post
    That's why you take him in the 4th. He has the potential to be a good NFL level receiver, but it's followed with question marks. People complain because we don't take any chances on athletes and they complain when we take the safe pick. Spielman did a little of both in this draft, and time will tell if he ends up with quality players in this draft.

    Here's what I would expect from this year's draft for me to give it a respectable grade:
    -Top 5 pick (Kalil) needs to be a franchise player with multiple pro bowls. Any given year there are supposedly 5-7 elite players, when your picking at #3, you better get one. Especially if it's a position of need.
    -Second pick (late first round - Harrison) needs to be a starter from day one and significantly improve the play of our secondary
    -Third pick (Robinson - 3rd round) - Needs to be a solid contributor this year and move into starter role by year two
    -The other 7 picks -- 3-4 of them make the roster and are solid contributors in 2012. 1-2 moving into starting roles over the next few years.


    Overall, if you can get 4 eventual starters in any given draft year along with 6-7 solid contributors, I think you have a pretty decent draft. With the picks we had and the needs we have, I think we need at least 4 starters to call it successful. Not year one starters but eventual starters by years 2-3.

    Anything more than this I would consider to be an excellent draft, anything less and it goes down.

    Everybody has their favorite players and their opinions on our needs, but we have no idea how our scouting staff graded the players or how our coaching staff emphasized needs. Spielman's job is to improve our team by working the draft to optimize our ability to land the best players according to the information he is given.

    It would be much easier to grade this draft having that information, but without it, we'll just have to wait to see how these guys deliver. At the end of the day that is the only thing that matters.
    I feel you and on any other team i would agree 4 starters from any draft would be successful...

    HOWEVER

    we were 3-13 last year and picked 3rd overall.... so just because any other those dudes end up starting doesn't mean they should be... Just look at sanford, abdulah and the other bumb we had at safety last year... they have no business being key contributors (aside from ST) starting....

    All these "safe picks:" are exactly why our draft sucks... I agree 1-3 or 4 round take safe picks.. but 4-7 you are looking at talent/upside/position switches, outside the box thinking... not just solid guys you draft for special teams...

    I agree with CMac... the last 2 drafts were very marginal... and I think this one, aside from khalil, Smith, and maybe 1 other person will be no different...

    doesnt' help our coaches suck as well.. so developing talent or putting guys in position to succeed will also be a problem..

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by bleedpurple View Post
    I feel you and on any other team i would agree 4 starters from any draft would be successful...

    HOWEVER

    we were 3-13 last year and picked 3rd overall.... so just because any other those dudes end up starting doesn't mean they should be... Just look at sanford, abdulah and the other bumb we had at safety last year... they have no business being key contributors (aside from ST) starting....

    All these "safe picks:" are exactly why our draft sucks... I agree 1-3 or 4 round take safe picks.. but 4-7 you are looking at talent/upside/position switches, outside the box thinking... not just solid guys you draft for special teams...

    I agree with CMac... the last 2 drafts were very marginal... and I think this one, aside from khalil, Smith, and maybe 1 other person will be no different...

    doesnt' help our coaches suck as well.. so developing talent or putting guys in position to succeed will also be a problem..
    Your last point is the most relevant. If our coaches can't develop talent or put them in a position to excel, who we draft outside of truly elite guys like Kalil, is pretty much lost.

    I also agree that just being labeled a starter doesn't necessarily mean you should be. Hard to put absolute qualifiers on success, that was the best I could come up with that takes some subjectivity and personal opinion out the equation.

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