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  1. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouthVikesFan View Post
    Interesting.. During one of his interviews he said "we wanted to stay within the top 5 pick.. we did have ONE offer out of the top 5 but we didnt look towards that direction". It could have been the Bucs but i think they got the player they wanted all along.
    I think it was the Bills at #10. They wanted Kalil.
    Disclaimer: I'm an idiot.

  2. #132
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    So again, how does that take any credit away from Spielman? I agree, the Browns did the right thing. When faced with picking behind whoever Minnesota could have traded with or trading up to ensure they got Richardson, they traded up. I would have as well.

    Did we fleece Cleveland? Not necessarily, but even if we did I wouldn't expect Spielman to come out and say that. The only thing that would do would be to alienate a future trade partner. But we did create a market for the #3 spot that left Cleveland with no choice but to trade up. And I give Spielman a lot of credit for that.

    I stand by my previous statement:

    Spielman created a trade market for Richardson - whether it was real or not - and pulled off a very good trade. It wasn't some no-brainer, it wasn't initiated by Cleveland (Spielman was very vocal about trading the 3rd overall for weeks before the draft). It was a very good trade. And then because we had two high 4th round picks as a result of that trade, we were able to package one with our second to trade back up into the first to take Smith. Some don't like the Smith pick, and that's OK. But at least admit that had the original trade not happened, that trade likely wouldn't have either.

    Anyone trying to make the argument that that trade was nothing special, or it was just the easy decision that anyone else would have done is absolutely marginalizing what really happened.
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  3. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    So again, how does that take any credit away from Spielman? I agree, the Browns did the right thing. When faced with picking behind whoever Minnesota could have traded with or trading up to ensure they got Richardson, they traded up. I would have as well.

    Did we fleece Cleveland? Not necessarily, but even if we did I wouldn't expect Spielman to come out and say that. The only thing that would do would be to alienate a future trade partner. But we did create a market for the #3 spot that left Cleveland with no choice but to trade up. And I give Spielman a lot of credit for that.

    I stand by my previous statement:
    It's only a good trade if he picks the right players (IMO, he did not). That has yet to be seen.

    Lots of question marks.
    Last edited by C Mac D; 05-04-2012 at 01:56 PM.
    Disclaimer: I'm an idiot.

  4. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by C Mac D View Post
    It's only a good trade if he picks the right players (IMO, he did not). That has yet to be seen.

    Lots of question marks.
    I can live with that.

    I think the impact that Smith has this year will really dictate how well the picks from this trade were spent. Without the trade, we wouldn't have packaged up our second and a 4th to move up and get him.
    Zeus wrote:
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  5. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    So again, how does that take any credit away from Spielman? I agree, the Browns did the right thing. When faced with picking behind whoever Minnesota could have traded with or trading up to ensure they got Richardson, they traded up. I would have as well.

    Did we fleece Cleveland? Not necessarily, but even if we did I wouldn't expect Spielman to come out and say that. The only thing that would do would be to alienate a future trade partner. But we did create a market for the #3 spot that left Cleveland with no choice but to trade up. And I give Spielman a lot of credit for that.

    I stand by my previous statement:
    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Spielman did the wrong thing. I agree that he did. What I disagree with is the fact that some are claiming that it was sheer genius by Spielman that made the trade & masterminded it. He didn't break new ground by trading a pick or rock the world with anything earth shattering that hasn't been done before.

    Did Spielman create a market for #3? IMO, only by saying he would be accepting trades for the #3 pick.

    Just as you claim that you wouldn't expect Spielman to come out and say that he fleeced Clevland would you expect him or any other GM in any major sport to come out & say "We don't currently have any offers for our #3 pick" when you have it on the trading block? I wouldn't. That would only make teams wanting to make a trade offer less because there's no competition.

    Would you expect him to say "We are targeting Kalil & no others right now"?......... I wouldn't.

    Would you expect him to say "We are targeting either Kalil, Claiborne, Blackmon"?......... I wouldn't.....but he did.

    Does him saying that open up a market & force Cleveland to make a great trade offer, like many here believe? Not at all.

    Why? Because Cleveland wanted the RB Trent Richardson. They didn't want Kalil, Claiborne or Blackmon. Cleveland could have cared less & in fact would have benefited if the Vikings would have traded the #3 pick to a team that wanted Kalil, Claiborne, Blackmon or even Tannehill for that matter.

    The only thing that mattered to Cleveland was another team getting in the way of them drafting Richardson. We have AD, so we didn't pose a threat to taking him & Spielman didn't hint to the Browns that we might. Had he hinted that we might draft him, we might have gotten even more for the pick.

    What forced the Browns hand was the fear that someone would move up & take the #3 pick & use it to take Richardson. That fear existed solely by us having that pick & accepting trades for it. Nothing else had to be said. Sure he said we had an offer for the #3 pick. That's a no-brainer. Anyone here would have said the same thing. No one would have said "no, we don't have an offer".
    Last edited by singersp; 05-05-2012 at 12:20 PM.

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  6. #136
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    Tampa Bay created the Browns trade. They made it clear they wanted Richardson as well. The only reason we didn't trade with them is they didn't have as much to offer as the Browns did. I really don't see that Spielman did anything to create that. All he did is recognize the situation existed and took the best deal offered him.

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  7. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by RK. View Post
    Tampa Bay created the Browns trade. They made it clear they wanted Richardson as well. The only reason we didn't trade with them is they didn't have as much to offer as the Browns did. I really don't see that Spielman did anything to create that. All he did is recognize the situation existed and took the best deal offered him.
    Really? Sigh...
    Zeus wrote:
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  8. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Spielman did the wrong thing. I agree that he did. What I disagree with is the fact that some are claiming that it was sheer genius by Spielman that made the trade & masterminded it. He didn't break new ground by trading a pick or rock the world with anything earth shattering that hasn't been done before.

    Did Spielman create a market for #3? IMO, only by saying he would be accepting trades for the #3 pick.

    Just as you claim that you wouldn't expect Spielman to come out and say that he fleeced Clevland would you expect him or any other GM in any major sport to come out & say "We don't currently have any offers for our #3 pick" when you have it on the trading block? I wouldn't. That would only make teams wanting to make a trade offer less because there's no competition.

    Would you expect him to say "We are targeting Kalil & no others right now"?......... I wouldn't.

    Would you expect him to say "We are targeting either Kalil, Claiborne, Blackmon"?......... I wouldn't.....but he did.

    Does him saying that open up a market & force Cleveland to make a great trade offer, like many here believe? Not at all.

    Why? Because Cleveland wanted the RB Trent Richardson. They didn't want Kalil, Claiborne or Blackmon. Cleveland could have cared less & in fact would have benefited if the Vikings would have traded the #3 pick to a team that wanted Kalil, Claiborne, Blackmon or even Tannehill for that matter.

    The only thing that mattered to Cleveland was another team getting in the way of them drafting Richardson. We have AD, so we didn't pose a threat to taking him & Spielman didn't hint to the Browns that we might. Had he hinted that we might draft him, we might have gotten even more for the pick.

    What forced the Browns hand was the fear that someone would move up & take the #3 pick & use it to take Richardson. That fear existed solely by us having that pick & accepting trades for it. Nothing else had to be said. Sure he said we had an offer for the #3 pick. That's a no-brainer. Anyone here would have said the same thing. No one would have said "no, we don't have an offer".
    Fair enough - but if Cleveland didn't believe that we were entertaining offers, they wouldn't have traded up. Honestly, there was a lot of risk in us trading down very far - the trade with Cleveland is the only trade we could have done that did not involve risk. Trading down to #5 probably would have been fine - we still could have gotten our top three. After that and suddenly it becomes an issue.

    Look at Tampa. Did they really want Richardson? I believe that there did, despite their claims otherwise. Because they weren't willing to pull the trigger, they missed out. Then they traded down two spots. Most people felt that they were targeting Claiborne, and guess what - the Cowboys traded up into 6 and sniped him. Tampa tried to do something similar, but it failed for them. And they didn't get nearly the picks we did, AND we got the #1 guy we were targeting.

    You say it is a no brainer, and that is where I disagree. It did take brains. It wasn't a gimme. We could have taken Tampa's offer and gotten screwed just like they did. The Bills, after all, were targeting Kalil as well. But instead we played the #3 pick for as much as we could possibly have gotten, and we did it with no risk to the team.

    We is genius? Well, I would say that is a bit extreme. Was it a no-brainer. I would say that is just as extreme. Yes, it was the right thing to do, but IMHO out of the many different scenarios that have could have happened on draft day, it was also one of the best, and I think Spielman deserves some credit for making it happen.

    To listen to some people talk, it sounds like Spielman was simply sleeping in the draft room and was woken up by Cleveland calling and offering a trade. Spielman worked this for weeks, and it paid off. Can't we give the guy SOME credit here?
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  9. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    Fair enough - but if Cleveland didn't believe that we were entertaining offers, they wouldn't have traded up. Honestly, there was a lot of risk in us trading down very far - the trade with Cleveland is the only trade we could have done that did not involve risk. Trading down to #5 probably would have been fine - we still could have gotten our top three. After that and suddenly it becomes an issue.

    Look at Tampa. Did they really want Richardson? I believe that there did, despite their claims otherwise. Because they weren't willing to pull the trigger, they missed out. Then they traded down two spots. Most people felt that they were targeting Claiborne, and guess what - the Cowboys traded up into 6 and sniped him. Tampa tried to do something similar, but it failed for them. And they didn't get nearly the picks we did, AND we got the #1 guy we were targeting.

    You say it is a no brainer, and that is where I disagree. It did take brains. It wasn't a gimme. We could have taken Tampa's offer and gotten screwed just like they did. The Bills, after all, were targeting Kalil as well. But instead we played the #3 pick for as much as we could possibly have gotten, and we did it with no risk to the team.

    We is genius? Well, I would say that is a bit extreme. Was it a no-brainer. I would say that is just as extreme. Yes, it was the right thing to do, but IMHO out of the many different scenarios that have could have happened on draft day, it was also one of the best, and I think Spielman deserves some credit for making it happen.

    To listen to some people talk, it sounds like Spielman was simply sleeping in the draft room and was woken up by Cleveland calling and offering a trade. Spielman worked this for weeks, and it paid off. Can't we give the guy SOME credit here?
    Sure we can give him some credit, but not to the extent that some here want to give him. Yes Tampa Bay was making an offer. At no time ever did I believe the Spielman & the Vikings would drop that far & risk losing all of their top 3 picks & I believe that was their intent all along. They had a little wiggle room, but not much.

    Others believe there was no other trade offer at all & Spielman faked the Browns out with sheer intellect by telling them there was. I say bullshit to that.

    I give him credit for sticking to their plan, but then again we really don't know what the Bucs offered. Perhaps he did in fact pass up a blockbuster offer that would have been more beneficial to the Vikings. If there was such an offer & fans new about it, we'd be calling him an idiot instead.

    In the end he simply took the best offer on the table that still allowed him to take one of his top 3 players with Kalil being the primary target.

    I would give him more credit if he had held out from a lower initial offer from the Browns & there was bartering back & forth to arrive at the final deal, but there is no evidence of that whatsoever.
    Last edited by singersp; 05-06-2012 at 11:55 AM.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  10. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    I would give him more credit if he had held out from a lower initial offer from the Browns & there was bartering back & forth to arrive at the final deal, but there is no evidence of that whatsoever.
    Nor is there any evidence that he jumped on the first offer that the Browns made, and I think it is out of touch with reality to assume that was the case. Even the worst GM would negotiate a trade. It is a lot like a car sale. You know what you want and the seller knows what they want. But neither side LEADS with that number (unless they are idiots).
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

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