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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    As opposed to all of us "experts"? At least they know enough to make a living at it.
    Exactly. Say what you want about how these guys are wannabe GMs, but it's not like the GMs are so much better. Everyone get's picks wrong, and if you look at the old drafts revisted and regraded, you will see that there are quite a few they were right on. They know a hell of a lot more than we do. There are what, about 32 GMs (unless a team or two doesn't have a GM), for NFL teams in the world!? How are these guys "wannabe GMs"? It's called being an analyst. Would you say that every sports analyst is a wannabe GM? Every political analyst a wannabe president? Every book reviewer a wannabe author? It's a dumb thing to say. Someone has to analyze these drafts, and that doesn't make them a wannabe anything. Might as well say every PPO poster is a wannabe Kiper/McShay by the way we try to analyze the players.
    I am NOT here to provide good football insight or rational observations. I am an emotional 19 year old Viking fan and I expect you to adjust your expectations from my posts.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    I love how some of the arm chair GMs are critical of Spielman's draft. This confirms that no matter what he would have done, there would be some people complaining. Whatever...

    I thought it went well. I am very happy with picks in the first three rounds. I don't know as much about the picks after that, but looking at the need and the ratings, I certainly can't complain.

    I think that Spielman's first full year as the man in charge is off to a decent start.
    I love how some of the arm chair GMs are praising Spielman's draft & dissing those whose opinion differs from theirs as if they are wrong. Whatever....

    Each of us has different opinions of what positions needed to be addressed first & then who best fits that need. There is no right or wrong answer here, just opinions.

    Some are giving him high grades simply because he filled positions of need. Yep, he did that, except the truth is we had holes at virtually every position so it's a pretty easy task to fill a hole.

    Some are giving him high praise because the Browns offered him a lot for the 3rd pick & he took it. Those picks were great to get, but if he squanders those picks then they become moot. Two of them won't be used until next year. Who knows, perhaps he'll blow those picks on a trade & select a player that will be a bust.

    Personally, I didn't like the fact that he signed yet another TE & felt the 3rd pick should have been a WR. I questioned the need for a kicker this year as well since we just signed Longwell to a 4 year deal.

    Also, each person may be grading Spielman's draft differently. Some may be grading him on how good the players are that he drafted, while others may be grading him on how well they felt he prioritized & signed players of need based on their thoughts. an example would be Kalil. Some will give him a high grade for the pick because they wanted Kalil, others will grade him somewhat lower because they wanted Claiborne or Blackmon.

    No one is right or wrong here, they are simply grading him on how they felt. The true impact of these players won't even be known until they play. We have to wait & see how many will make the team or even be still on it 3-4 years down the road.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    I love how some of the arm chair GMs are praising Spielman's draft & dissing those whose opinion differs from theirs as if they are wrong. Whatever....

    Each of us has different opinions of what positions needed to be addressed first & then who best fits that need. There is no right or wrong answer here, just opinions.

    Some are giving him high grades simply because he filled positions of need. Yep, he did that, except the truth is we had holes at virtually every position so it's a pretty easy task to fill a hole.

    Some are giving him high praise because the Browns offered him a lot for the 3rd pick & he took it. Those picks were great to get, but if he squanders those picks then they become moot. Two of them won't be used until next year. Who knows, perhaps he'll blow those picks on a trade & select a player that will be a bust.

    Personally, I didn't like the fact that he signed yet another TE & felt the 3rd pick should have been a WR. I questioned the need for a kicker this year as well since we just signed Longwell to a 4 year deal.

    Also, each person may be grading Spielman's draft differently. Some may be grading him on how good the players are that he drafted, while others may be grading him on how well they felt he prioritized & signed players of need based on their thoughts. an example would be Kalil. Some will give him a high grade for the pick because they wanted Kalil, others will grade him somewhat lower because they wanted Claiborne or Blackmon.

    No one is right or wrong here, they are simply grading him on how they felt. The true impact of these players won't even be known until they play. We have to wait & see how many will make the team or even be still on it 3-4 years down the road.
    I'm pretty sure that I didn't say that anybody's opinion was right or wrong, nor did I ever "dis" anybody who disagreed with me, kindly don't imply that I did.

    Saying that you disagree with the draft is fine - there are parts that I disagree with as well, especially in the later rounds. But the "armchair GMs" that I am referring to are not the ones who are simply disagreeing and voicing that opinion. They are the ones who are going overboard and refer to the draft as "horrible". They are the ones who are doing everything they can to minimize Spielman's credit for trading out with the Browns, even though Tampa has publicly said that weren't in the mix (translation - Spielman played Cleveland). They are the ones who marginalize the good picks made, especially on day one, as "easy" picks, but catastrophize the picks in the 5th and 6th rounds - despite the fact that missing in the first and second round is a lot worse than missing in the 5th and 6th... In short, they are the ones who are convinced that they could have done a better job, and that IMHO is hubris at its best.

    I guess now that Jackson, Favre and Childress are all gone, we needed another polarizing figure - one that some people will make their minds up on and then weave conformation bias like an art form to support their belief, and then be as vocal about their belief as possible to force people to either agree or disagree. Welcome to the club Spielman. (And no, that isn't a slam on any person - it is a slam/joke about the dynamics of this forum.)

    I am going to try my best not to be polarized one way or the other, but the odds are that I will fall victim to it at some point as well - that tends to be my MO whether I like it or not. For now, I don't like the way that Spielman has approached free agency. I did like the way he controlled the draft. So far he is about even for me...
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  4. #124
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    Though I have my opinions on what the Vikings should do during the draft and free agency, they are exactly that, opinions. I try to take each opinion on the merits they present, and evaluate from there. I do agree with Paul, that is seems some people just want to downplay every move that is made.

    Personally, I think our first pick may have been the hardest to make in some cases. We had what many people to believe 3 very talented players at our disposal, all 3 of which should be able to make an immediate impact. As diverse as we are as fans, I can assure you know matter what, there is a group of people that believe we made the wrong choice. Hell, Marr probably thinks we should have taken a warpig with our first pick (just joking Marr...dont take offense)

    With that being said, I will state again I wanted us to take a playmaker with our first choice, and load up on the offensive side of the ball on the draft as a whole. I am smart enough though to realize that we will nothing for the first couple of years. On top of that, we only see certain aspects of the Vikings plan. I for one like the idea of building through the draft, and plugging holes with free agents where necessary. With the number of holes we have this year, though, that is not possible.

    How do we know if the Vikings didn't reach out to Tier 1 free agents? Maybe they did, but they agents simply told the Vikings that there was no amount of money that would bring their player to the Vikings. I doubt that was the case, but you never know.

    I don't agree with every move made, but I am hoping for the best. I certainly cannot control what they do, but do reserve the right to voice my opinion

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    I'm pretty sure that I didn't say that anybody's opinion was right or wrong, nor did I ever "dis" anybody who disagreed with me, kindly don't imply that I did.

    Saying that you disagree with the draft is fine - there are parts that I disagree with as well, especially in the later rounds. But the "armchair GMs" that I am referring to are not the ones who are simply disagreeing and voicing that opinion. They are the ones who are going overboard and refer to the draft as "horrible". They are the ones who are doing everything they can to minimize Spielman's credit for trading out with the Browns, even though Tampa has publicly said that weren't in the mix (translation - Spielman played Cleveland). They are the ones who marginalize the good picks made, especially on day one, as "easy" picks, but catastrophize the picks in the 5th and 6th rounds - despite the fact that missing in the first and second round is a lot worse than missing in the 5th and 6th... In short, they are the ones who are convinced that they could have done a better job, and that IMHO is hubris at its best.

    I guess now that Jackson, Favre and Childress are all gone, we needed another polarizing figure - one that some people will make their minds up on and then weave conformation bias like an art form to support their belief, and then be as vocal about their belief as possible to force people to either agree or disagree. Welcome to the club Spielman. (And no, that isn't a slam on any person - it is a slam/joke about the dynamics of this forum.)

    I am going to try my best not to be polarized one way or the other, but the odds are that I will fall victim to it at some point as well - that tends to be my MO whether I like it or not. For now, I don't like the way that Spielman has approached free agency. I did like the way he controlled the draft. So far he is about even for me...
    There are parts of the draft I liked & parts I didn't as well. It would have been difficult for him to make a bad first pick choosing anyone of the 3.

    I also disagree with your belief that Spielman played Cleveland. Especially when both Cleveland & Spielman himself said he did not. Regardless of what Spielman might have told them, Cleveland wasn't 100% sure if some team was going to move ahead of them, so according to Rick, "They did the right thing" & made an acceptable trade offer that Rick accepted.

    There has been no information that I have read from any source that contradicts the Browns made the offer & states that Spielman demanded a 4th, 5th & 7th round pick in addition to swapping 1sts.

    Like you said yourself, you have not been a big fan of his FA move & other people need to realize that's part of the job as well. They may claim he plugged a lot of holes in the draft & even with the mediocre FA players he signed, but he is also responsible for all those holes being there in the first place, with the exception of Jimmy K. who retired.

    Let those who are happy as a clam right now because he filled holes at key positions, bask temporarily because as we all know, only a few of them will eventually pan out. One only needs to look at our past drafts at all the players we drafted to fill holes at key positions & where are they today.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    There are parts of the draft I liked & parts I didn't as well. It would have been difficult for him to make a bad first pick choosing anyone of the 3.

    I also disagree with your belief that Spielman played Cleveland. Especially when both Cleveland & Spielman himself said he did not. Regardless of what Spielman might have told them, Cleveland wasn't 100% sure if some team was going to move ahead of them, so according to Rick, "They did the right thing" & made an acceptable trade offer that Rick accepted.

    There has been no information that I have read from any source that contradicts the Browns made the offer & states that Spielman demanded a 4th, 5th & 7th round pick in addition to swapping 1sts.

    Like you said yourself, you have not been a big fan of his FA move & other people need to realize that's part of the job as well. They may claim he plugged a lot of holes in the draft & even with the mediocre FA players he signed, but he is also responsible for all those holes being there in the first place, with the exception of Jimmy K. who retired.

    Let those who are happy as a clam right now because he filled holes at key positions, bask temporarily because as we all know, only a few of them will eventually pan out. One only needs to look at our past drafts at all the players we drafted to fill holes at key positions & where are they today.
    I agree and I take it as we ( singer and I) are the individuals you are talking about specifically. What I see year in and year out are people praising a draft only to find out 2-3 yrs later that it was crappy. Some of us can tell right away that the draft didn't turn out like it should and I don't have to have the expertise of Spielman to do so. All of the GMs in the league have the needed skills to be GMs. That doesn't stop teams like the Browns from being the annual doormats of the NFL. Nor does it prevent the Pats from being in the playoffs year after year. Bad teams make bad decisions regardless of the expertise of their GMs.

    You may choose to look at this draft with Purple Colored Glasses but the fact remains we should have walked away with 5 QUALITY starters (I say quality because on this board being a starter makes you a great player for some reason) to have me give them a great draft. What we got was a meh draft. 3 quality starters and the rest are a bunch of guys with huge question marks like Injuries, skill sets, needs and consistency. I gave the draft a C-. I don't just considered what we got but where we were picking, the trades we got and the needs/players we passed on.

    Kalil - I loved this pick and cheered
    Smith - Average pick for me. I think he is poor in coverage and only plays well coming forward. I haven't seen one play made on a ball from him that he had to turn and run. He's a tweener lb/S skillset.
    Robinson - I pleaded for the Vikes to trade up 3 spots and grab Randle. However, this is a good pick.
    From here we made several head scratching picks and this is where the draft went horrible which is Spielman's MO.

    Wright - talented college WR. Will not excel on the outsides in the Pro and must be in the slot(Issues with the Jam)
    FB- in the 4th? Who draft a dying position with a 4th round pick. We do.
    Childs - Liked the pick as I believe that he is healthy. Route running is not the best but too be expected in the 4th.

    You have your opinion, as do others but please remember that no one is hear to bash the Vikings. We are all fans that bleed purple. Some of us are just tired of mediocrity and the culture of it that has become a trademark of this team.
    Last edited by kevoncox; 05-03-2012 at 09:11 AM.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    There are parts of the draft I liked & parts I didn't as well. It would have been difficult for him to make a bad first pick choosing anyone of the 3.

    I also disagree with your belief that Spielman played Cleveland. Especially when both Cleveland & Spielman himself said he did not. Regardless of what Spielman might have told them, Cleveland wasn't 100% sure if some team was going to move ahead of them, so according to Rick, "They did the right thing" & made an acceptable trade offer that Rick accepted.

    There has been no information that I have read from any source that contradicts the Browns made the offer & states that Spielman demanded a 4th, 5th & 7th round pick in addition to swapping 1sts.

    Like you said yourself, you have not been a big fan of his FA move & other people need to realize that's part of the job as well. They may claim he plugged a lot of holes in the draft & even with the mediocre FA players he signed, but he is also responsible for all those holes being there in the first place, with the exception of Jimmy K. who retired.

    Let those who are happy as a clam right now because he filled holes at key positions, bask temporarily because as we all know, only a few of them will eventually pan out. One only needs to look at our past drafts at all the players we drafted to fill holes at key positions & where are they today.
    The only other team in the mix who would have realistically been interested in trading up was Tampa, and they publicly stated that they were not going to after the draft. Cleveland said that they were told of multiple teams interested, and Spielman confirmed that on two different occasions, most recently this morning on KFAN. The only people who will really ever know would be the people in the Vikings draft room. The point is - Spielman kept the rumor fire going enough to make Cleveland feel it was necessary to trade up to get their guy. The Vikings traded down ONE SPOT and got three additional draft picks in return. How many times has that happened in the first round of the NFL draft? I honestly don't remember that happening in recent history - the closest would have been the three way trade that Denver pulled off to drop a spot and get Tebow last year. But even that was in the last third of the round, and they did it with a pick obtained in a different trade.

    Spielman created a trade market for Richardson - whether it was real or not - and pulled off a very good trade. It wasn't some no-brainer, it wasn't initiated by Cleveland (Spielman was very vocal about trading the 3rd overall for weeks before the draft). It was a very good trade. And then because we had two high 4th round picks as a result of that trade, we were able to package one with our second to trade back up into the first to take Smith. Some don't like the Smith pick, and that's OK. But at least admit that had the original trade not happened, that trade likely wouldn't have either.

    Anyone trying to make the argument that that trade was nothing special, or it was just the easy decision that anyone else would have done is absolutely marginalizing what really happened.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    I agree and I take it as we ( singer and I) are the individuals you are talking about specifically. What I see year in and year out are people praising a draft only to find out 2-3 yrs later that it was crappy. Some of us can tell right away that the draft didn't turn out like it should and I don't have to have the expertise of Spielman to do so. All of the GMs in the league have the needed skills to be GMs. That doesn't stop teams like the Browns from being the annual doormats of the NFL. Nor does it prevent the Pats from being in the playoffs year after year. Bad teams make bad decisions regardless of the expertise of their GMs.

    You may choose to look at this draft with Purple Colored Glasses but the fact remains we should have walked away with 5 QUALITY starters (I say quality because on this board being a starter makes you a great player for some reason) to have me give them a great draft. What we got was a meh draft. 3 quality starters and the rest are a bunch of guys with huge question marks like Injuries, skill sets, needs and consistency. I gave the draft a C-. I don't just considered what we got but where we were picking, the trades we got and the needs/players we passed on.

    Kalil - I loved this pick and cheered
    Smith - Average pick for me. I think he is poor in coverage and only plays well coming forward. I haven't seen one play made on a ball from him that he had to turn and run. He's a tweener lb/S skillset.
    Robinson - I pleaded for the Vikes to trade up 3 spots and grab Randle. However, this is a good pick.
    From here we made several head scratching picks and this is where the draft went horrible which is Spielman's MO.

    Wright - talented college WR. Will not excel on the outsides in the Pro and must be in the slot(Issues with the Jam)
    FB- in the 4th? Who draft a dying position with a 4th round pick. We do.
    Childs - Liked the pick as I believe that he is healthy. Route running is not the best but too be expected in the 4th.

    You have your opinion, as do others but please remember that no one is hear to bash the Vikings. We are all fans that bleed purple. Some of us are just tired of mediocrity and the culture of it that has become a trademark of this team.
    I wasn't trying to single out any specific posters.

    Believe it or not we do agree more than disagree on the draft:

    Kalil - I loved this pick and cheered Me too, especially considering the trade.
    Smith - Average pick for me. I think he is poor in coverage and only plays well coming forward. I haven't seen one play made on a ball from him that he had to turn and run. He's a tweener lb/S skillset. I was surprised by this pick initially, although I agree that we needed safety help. One of the big reasons that I am OK with this pick is because the coaching staff was very, very high on him after the senior bowl. It sounds like we had him pegged as a player to go for long before the draft, and Spielman made it happen.
    Robinson - I pleaded for the Vikes to trade up 3 spots and grab Randle. However, this is a good pick. Randle would have been great, partof me was wondering if he was going to fall to us. But I liked the Robinson pick a lot.
    From here we made several head scratching picks and this is where the draft went horrible which is Spielman's MO.

    Wright - talented college WR. Will not excel on the outsides in the Pro and must be in the slot(Issues with the Jam)
    I did not like this pick.
    FB- in the 4th? Who draft a dying position with a 4th round pick. We do. Was only luke warm on this pick as well. I could see the need for one if we stick with a run first game, especially if he can catch out of the backfield as well. Kind of like Kliensausser used to.
    Childs - Liked the pick as I believe that he is healthy. Route running is not the best but too be expected in the 4th. Loved this pick. I think he will turn out to be one of the better picks from this draft.

    With all being said and done, I think we did well with the first three rounds. And only OK with the later rounds. To me that translates to a better than average draft. I would go a solid B+ if we are assigning grades. I think there was more good than bad, and I can't be upset with that.

    Your assessment of the draft is very fair, and that is the kind of assessment that actually encourages discussion instead of argument. I get what you are saying - but I also get what Spielman is doing. I think we are in a better spot than we were last year, and that is what I was looking for.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    The only other team in the mix who would have realistically been interested in trading up was Tampa, and they publicly stated that they were not going to after the draft. Cleveland said that they were told of multiple teams interested, and Spielman confirmed that on two different occasions, most recently this morning on KFAN. The only people who will really ever know would be the people in the Vikings draft room. The point is - Spielman kept the rumor fire going enough to make Cleveland feel it was necessary to trade up to get their guy. The Vikings traded down ONE SPOT and got three additional draft picks in return. How many times has that happened in the first round of the NFL draft? I honestly don't remember that happening in recent history - the closest would have been the three way trade that Denver pulled off to drop a spot and get Tebow last year. But even that was in the last third of the round, and they did it with a pick obtained in a different trade.

    Spielman created a trade market for Richardson - whether it was real or not - and pulled off a very good trade. It wasn't some no-brainer, it wasn't initiated by Cleveland (Spielman was very vocal about trading the 3rd overall for weeks before the draft). It was a very good trade. And then because we had two high 4th round picks as a result of that trade, we were able to package one with our second to trade back up into the first to take Smith. Some don't like the Smith pick, and that's OK. But at least admit that had the original trade not happened, that trade likely wouldn't have either.

    Anyone trying to make the argument that that trade was nothing special, or it was just the easy decision that anyone else would have done is absolutely marginalizing what really happened.
    Minnesota Vikings general manager Rick Spielman rebuffed the notion that he "fleeced" the Cleveland Browns by trading the No. 3 overall pick in the 2012 NFL Draft, allowing them to select former Alabama running back Trent Richardson.

    "We did have offers on the table, I can tell you that. I'm not going to tell you who or what. But I will say Cleveland did the right thing," Spielman told the St. Paul Pioneer Press on Monday.
    Spielman says Minnesota Vikings had other offers for No. 3 pick - NFL.com

    Vikings GM says, 'We did have offers on table ... Cleveland did right thing'

    NFL draft: Vikings GM says, 'We did have offers on table ... Cleveland did right thing' - TwinCities.com

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  10. #130
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    Interesting.. During one of his interviews he said "we wanted to stay within the top 5 pick.. we did have ONE offer out of the top 5 but we didnt look towards that direction". It could have been the Bucs but i think they got the player they wanted all along.

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