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  1. #21
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    Re: Is Sidney Rice Damaged Goods?

    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1099599
    Ok, lets say we keep 3 good TE's as you think we should. Where do we draw that cap space from?

    Shank will command some good money. Not sure what Rudolph will get, but he should be manageable for about 3 years as a second rounder.
    Alright, a discussion looking at my opinion........YEEHAWWWWWW.

    Just kidding my friend.

    Shance is scheduled to make 3.1 mil this year. You need to extend him this year and ink him to a 4 or 5 year deal. Give him a nice signing bonus and backload the contract.

    Rudolph will get a typical rookie contract based on his draft position. Using Gronkowski as the model....

    Rob Gronkowski Tight End 7/25/10: Signed a four-year, $4.44 million contract. The deal contains $2.59 million guaranteed, including a $1.76 million signing bonus. Another $830,000 is available via a "likely to be earned" onetime incentive based on playing time. 2011: $405,000, 2012: $490,000 (+ $30,000 workout bonus), 2013: $575,000 (+ $30,000 workout bonus), 2014: Free Agent
    Sauce still has 2 or 3 more years of blocking in him. He's a team player and knows what his worth is. I don't see them committing much more than what they've been paying him already. As with Shanc, he is due 3 mil this year. Extend him, and backload the last year.

    Dugan is making 775,000 this year. He hasn't really lit the world up, but he is good in the scheme as an option H-back/TE. Again, 3 or 4 year contract at about 1.5 mil per year seems about right.

    Now look at the Pats. Gronkowski, Hernandez and Crumpler. Gronkowski was a 2nd rounder, Hernandez was a 4th. Neither really command big money. Crumpler being the Vet, probably has the biggest contract with 2.4 mil. However, Crumpler isn't really much of a receiver anymore, mostly used as a blocker.

    You can bet when the time comes to renew Gronkowski and Hernandez, they'll think hard about whether they command the big dollars, or they try and get another talented youngster.

    One thing the Pats don't do is keep players too long if they command too much money unless they NEED them.
    Aaron Hernandez Tight End 6/8/2010: Signed a four-year, $2.378 million contract. The deal included a $200,000 signing bonus and a $76,000 first-year roster bonus. $312,000 is available via workout bonuses spread throughout the deal, and Hernandez can earn an additional $1.308 million final-year escalator based on playing time. 2011: $405,000 (+ $90,000 roster bonus), 2012: $490,000 (+ $104,000 roster bonus), 2013: $575,000 (+ $118,000 roster bonus), 2014: Free Agent

    Alge Crumpler Tight End 2011: $2.4 million, 2012: Free Agent
    Contract info from Rotoworld.

    Brady, they need. Welker, they need. TE's are expendable. As are Runningbacks. I expect them to lock up McCourtey for a long time, but I could see some other decent players leaving th Pats in the near future. That's just how they operate.
    Of course they do but when the Vikes do it (i.e. Birk/T-rich) we hear beeeyyatching.
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  2. #22
    i_bleed_purple's Avatar
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    Re: Is Sidney Rice Damaged Goods?

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1099623
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1099599
    Ok, lets say we keep 3 good TE's as you think we should. Where do we draw that cap space from?

    Shank will command some good money. Not sure what Rudolph will get, but he should be manageable for about 3 years as a second rounder.
    Alright, a discussion looking at my opinion........YEEHAWWWWWW.

    Just kidding my friend.

    Shance is scheduled to make 3.1 mil this year. You need to extend him this year and ink him to a 4 or 5 year deal. Give him a nice signing bonus and backload the contract.

    Rudolph will get a typical rookie contract based on his draft position. Using Gronkowski as the model....

    Rob Gronkowski Tight End 7/25/10: Signed a four-year, $4.44 million contract. The deal contains $2.59 million guaranteed, including a $1.76 million signing bonus. Another $830,000 is available via a "likely to be earned" onetime incentive based on playing time. 2011: $405,000, 2012: $490,000 (+ $30,000 workout bonus), 2013: $575,000 (+ $30,000 workout bonus), 2014: Free Agent
    Sauce still has 2 or 3 more years of blocking in him. He's a team player and knows what his worth is. I don't see them committing much more than what they've been paying him already. As with Shanc, he is due 3 mil this year. Extend him, and backload the last year.

    Dugan is making 775,000 this year. He hasn't really lit the world up, but he is good in the scheme as an option H-back/TE. Again, 3 or 4 year contract at about 1.5 mil per year seems about right.

    Now look at the Pats. Gronkowski, Hernandez and Crumpler. Gronkowski was a 2nd rounder, Hernandez was a 4th. Neither really command big money. Crumpler being the Vet, probably has the biggest contract with 2.4 mil. However, Crumpler isn't really much of a receiver anymore, mostly used as a blocker.

    You can bet when the time comes to renew Gronkowski and Hernandez, they'll think hard about whether they command the big dollars, or they try and get another talented youngster.

    One thing the Pats don't do is keep players too long if they command too much money unless they NEED them.
    Aaron Hernandez Tight End 6/8/2010: Signed a four-year, $2.378 million contract. The deal included a $200,000 signing bonus and a $76,000 first-year roster bonus. $312,000 is available via workout bonuses spread throughout the deal, and Hernandez can earn an additional $1.308 million final-year escalator based on playing time. 2011: $405,000 (+ $90,000 roster bonus), 2012: $490,000 (+ $104,000 roster bonus), 2013: $575,000 (+ $118,000 roster bonus), 2014: Free Agent

    Alge Crumpler Tight End 2011: $2.4 million, 2012: Free Agent
    Contract info from Rotoworld.

    Brady, they need. Welker, they need. TE's are expendable. As are Runningbacks. I expect them to lock up McCourtey for a long time, but I could see some other decent players leaving th Pats in the near future. That's just how they operate.
    Of course they do but when the Vikes do it (i.e. Birk/T-rich) we hear beeeyyatching.
    because the players we replace them with do not seem to pan out.

    We replace Richardson with Tapeh/Tahi. Instantly go from one of the better players to absolute garbage.

    Birk to Sully. Instantly from a top-10 Center to below average

    Sharper to Tyrell Johnson. bad enough Johnson hasn't started in a while.


    The Pats on the other hand lose vets, and don't skip a beat. They get rid of Moss, and they adapt to make up for it. They get rid of Corey Dillon, Laurence Maroney, they find other ways to use their RB's. They get rid of rodney Harrison, they get Brandon Merriweather and Patrick Chung. They get rid of Asante Samuel and Ty Law, they get Leigh Bodden and Devon McCourtey. They get rid of Richard Seymour, they have Mike Wright and marcus Stroud.

    Their young/new players seem to really pan out more than not. Ours so far have been less than impressive to say the least. Hell, we even sign a 'proven' FA to help replace Sharper in M-Will, he's been pretty bad for us.

  3. #23
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    Re: Is Sidney Rice Damaged Goods?

    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1099626
    because the players we replace them with do not seem to pan out.

    We replace Richardson with Tapeh/Tahi. Instantly go from one of the better players to absolute garbage.

    Birk to Sully. Instantly from a top-10 Center to below average

    Sharper to Tyrell Johnson. bad enough Johnson hasn't started in a while.

    ......snip........

    Hell, we even sign a 'proven' FA to help replace Sharper in M-Will, he's been pretty bad for us.
    I hear ya, but think of it this way......

    Sully. Looked good in 2009 and he faced alot of good 3-4 teams. Last year is hard to evaluate cause he started off hurt. Heck, at one point I thought both he and Coop would be gone this year cause of the initial blocking scheme shift, but now that we are looking like we will keep the ZB scheme (or part of it) maybe he will start again.

    In the end, to soon to tell if he sucks as bad as you think.

    Tahi. Again, I just don't think that either he or T-rich had/have that big of a role. Atleast not to the point were one would think that one was so far superior to the other.

    Sharp just flat didn't fit the scheme. Our D-coords, by all accounts are/were pretty good and yet, when he left he started to get INT's again.

    I'm not a huge fan of M-will either, but I can also see that alot of times his angles are poor because he was out of position to begin with or someone blew his role up front. Could he be replaced? Yes, but I also think that alot of his issues would be eliminated if the play up front improved.

    Caveat....Remembering of course that I believe you can get by with avg DB's in our scheme if the front 4 do their job. If they aren't our avg DB's will look avg or below.

    The Pats on the other hand lose vets, and don't skip a beat. They get rid of Moss, and they adapt to make up for it. They get rid of Corey Dillon, Laurence Maroney, they find other ways to use their RB's. They get rid of rodney Harrison, they get Brandon Merriweather and Patrick Chung. They get rid of Asante Samuel and Ty Law, they get Leigh Bodden and Devon McCourtey. They get rid of Richard Seymour, they have Mike Wright and marcus Stroud.

    Their young/new players seem to really pan out more than not. Ours so far have been less than impressive to say the least.
    I'm not so sure I would say their pan out more than ours. I think I would say that once they commit to that young kid they stick with him. We, on the other hand seem to run him out there and if he struggles a bit, we run someone else out there.

    Most of that, IMHO, is attributed to the level of were the Vikes are in the rebuilding process. Lets not forget that the Pats have had consistency at a key position for quite a few years. We on the other hand start to look good, have a bad year, and everyone gets shitcanned.

    Again, I had issues with the Chiller. But my issues weren't to the extent that I really thought firing him wasn't going to do more harm than keeping him around, atleast for one more year so that we could see what a bit of consistency would do for the rosters development.

    On a side note, one thing I like about the Leslie signing, is that is gives us a semblence of that consistency. In short, something is better than nothing (starting all over again).

    In the end, patience my friend. Lets see what this year brings. I don't think its as bad/glum as you seem to think it is. We have alot of very young talent sitting on the bench. Some youngsters just coming into their own and a few vets who will help the transition to the new guys.
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  4. #24
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    Re: Is Sidney Rice Damaged Goods?

    I think every free agent out there is going to get ridiculous offers. The most recent CBA talks make it sound as though all teams are going to have to spend nearly 120million cash this year. With rookies taking a pay cut, and many vets under contract, alot of teams are going to be doling out cash to free agents just to meet the CBA guidelines.
    I could easily see a team shelling out a 30million signing bonus to a young guy like Rice. It's ridiculous, but that's pro sports for ya. Even without knowing what the Vikings offered, his next offer will be more, from the Vikings and other teams.

  5. #25
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    Re: Is Sidney Rice Damaged Goods?

    Quote Originally Posted by "jmcdon00" #1099633
    I think every free agent out there is going to get ridiculous offers. The most recent CBA talks make it sound as though all teams are going to have to spend nearly 120million cash this year. With rookies taking a pay cut, and many vets under contract, alot of teams are going to be doling out cash to free agents just to meet the CBA guidelines.
    I could easily see a team shelling out a 30million signing bonus to a young guy like Rice. It's ridiculous, but that's pro sports for ya. Even without knowing what the Vikings offered, his next offer will be more, from the Vikings and other teams.
    Thats a hell of a point my friend. One I didn't think of.
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  6. #26
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    Re: Is Sidney Rice Damaged Goods?

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1099636
    Quote Originally Posted by "jmcdon00" #1099633
    I think every free agent out there is going to get ridiculous offers. The most recent CBA talks make it sound as though all teams are going to have to spend nearly 120million cash this year. With rookies taking a pay cut, and many vets under contract, alot of teams are going to be doling out cash to free agents just to meet the CBA guidelines.
    I could easily see a team shelling out a 30million signing bonus to a young guy like Rice. It's ridiculous, but that's pro sports for ya. Even without knowing what the Vikings offered, his next offer will be more, from the Vikings and other teams.
    Thats a hell of a point my friend. One I didn't think of.
    Woooooooooo Hoooooooooo! Now we can afford to bring back Favre and keep Sidney Rice!
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  7. #27
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    Re: Is Sidney Rice Damaged Goods?

    This entire Sidney Rice debate really comes down to one factor folks: NEED. There is always (1) team who si going to fall in love with Rice's ability and completely look past his injury history. I dont believe the Vikings have that luxury because they have been spurned by the injury first hand.

    If MIN is going to go into discussions and use incentives as a bargaining chip then all it will take is that (1) team who is willing to deal in guarantees. I dont believe Rice is a believe in loyalty whatsoever. And to be honest, the fatc that he chose to have the surgery rather than play through it told me everything I needed to know about the guy. He had one good year in 09, and he figured why risk further injury? I'll bank my next contract on what I did in 09 because some sucker team is going to fall in love with my 09 tape.

    Oh and that team is going to be either St. Louis or Washington.
    None

  8. #28
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    Re: Is Sidney Rice Damaged Goods?

    Quote Originally Posted by "SpaceMTN69" #1099668
    This entire Sidney Rice debate really comes down to one factor folks: NEED. There is always (1) team who si going to fall in love with Rice's ability and completely look past his injury history. I dont believe the Vikings have that luxury because they have been spurned by the injury first hand.

    If MIN is going to go into discussions and use incentives as a bargaining chip then all it will take is that (1) team who is willing to deal in guarantees. I dont believe Rice is a believe in loyalty whatsoever. And to be honest, the fatc that he chose to have the surgery rather than play through it told me everything I needed to know about the guy. He had one good year in 09, and he figured why risk further injury? I'll bank my next contract on what I did in 09 because some sucker team is going to fall in love with my 09 tape.

    Oh and that team is going to be either St. Louis or Washington.
    Damn fine post.

    Supply (Big tall possesion type recievers that can catch anyting close -Rice/Plex) and demand (Rams/Wash/Seahawks/Chargers/Ravens/Vikes) = Need IMHO. The demand is there and the supply is low, thus the price will be far and above what most would think.
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  9. #29
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    Re: Is Sidney Rice Damaged Goods?

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1099674
    The demand is there and the supply is low
    I'm curious where you're getting that from. Supply of receivers is very robust this season. No, they're not all the 6'4" vertical monsters that Rice and Burress are, but there are about 5-10 very good receivers out there, and more decent ones.

  10. #30
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    Re: Is Sidney Rice Damaged Goods?

    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1099676
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1099674
    The demand is there and the supply is low
    I'm curious where you're getting that from. Supply of receivers is very robust this season. No, they're not all the 6'4" vertical monsters that Rice and Burress are, but there are about 5-10 very good receivers out there, and more decent ones.
    I thought I was pretty clear......

    Big tall possesion type recievers that can catch anyting close -Rice/Plex
    If you walk through the available WR's that fit that bill, there aren't many. I listed them in another thread just a second ago. All of them has some sort of issue which will make them "Unwanted" by a few.
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