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  1. #61
    Caine's Avatar
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    Re: Shiancoe: With injury risks, NFL players deserve..

    Quote Originally Posted by "Mr Anderson" #1092626
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1092610
    Quote Originally Posted by "jmcdon00" #1092604
    Quote Originally Posted by "slavinator" #1092491
    There are only a few hundred proffessional football players
    53 man roster x 32 teams=1696 players

    I think each team has 8-10 on the practice squad putting the total close to 2,000 current players each year.
    I stand corrected. Point is though there are 3million nurses. Or 15,000 nurses for every 1 nfl player.
    And the counter point is that virtually every one of those 3 million nurses can do what those NFL players can do - maybe a bit slower, but never the less, we can do it...

    Caine
    So ... they can't do what NFL players do? They can't run fast enough, or they aren't strong enough, athletic enough, tough enough, or coordinated enough to be in the NFL, so they cannot do what NFL players do. Being able to do something does not mean you can do it at a professional level. Just because some people play sports for leisure, does not mean these guys do. Some people are carpenters, others do carpentry as a hobby.

    You're comparing innate physical ability to education. I have tons of respect for nurses. A lot of people don't realize how hard they work in school to get where they are. I have 4 close friends in the nursing program here at Rutgers who bust their ass twice as hard as I do every semester. Having said that, you don't have to be 3 standard deviations from mean intelligence to do the job. If athleticism were scaled like IQ, the guys we love to watch on Sundays would fall in the 150+ range. Like I said in my earlier post, roughly .00062% of the US population plays in the NFL, that's about 300 more than attend my former high school. To say anyone at a given job is capable of doing what these guys do is ridiculous. Are there a bunch of people that are big and super athletic that don't play in the NFL? Of course, there's a good chance they're playing another professional sport, but there's also there is also the possibility that they are working ordinary jobs. And as we've all seen, being a physical freak alone is not enough in the NFL, just ask Vernon Gholston. These guys are much more than just bodies.

    So who are you to say that an NFL player couldn't become a nurse, fireman, teacher, or cop? They could put in the education time like anyone else, and in some schools they have to, but a lot of the time they don't. They were born with the physical gifts to play football, yes, a game, at the highest level and make millions off of it. Most of these guys would be great construction workers, excellent police officers, exceptional firemen. None of them could be nurses? Something tells me Matt Birk, Myron Rolle, Steve Young, Alan Page, Dhani Jones, Nnamdi Asomughaa, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Benjamin Watson could pull it off.

    And none of that even matters. They play in the NFL, we're not changing that. And in the NFL, which exists, and will continue to exist for a long time, the players are going to be paid. A lot. And that large amount they're paid individually, is far less than what owners pull in each year.

    On a broad, societal spectrum, do the players "deserve" the money? I wouldn't say they deserve any more money than the most beautiful model, talented musician, or artist.

    In the closed system of revenue that is the NFL, do they deserve it? Yes, they do. Sure the owners are the investors taking the financial risks, and they're making their money, no doubt. But they also came into the team as billionaires, some of them even inherited teams. People watch the game for the players. The players don't come into the NFL with money(usually)and know they have a very limited time to make money playing football. The owners have all the time in the world so long as they're not losing money, and of course business has its ups and downs, but 30% value growth in 4 years creating the 2nd least valuable franchise in the league sounds just fine to me.

    The day the owners open their books and prove that they are actually at risk of collapsing is the day I say the players should be paid less. Until then I'm sticking with my mantra: I'd rather see millionaires maintain their wealth than billionaires get richer.

    And on a side note, I'd feel pretty damn safe if our firemen and cops were as big and athletic as NFL players are. 6'5" 260, running 4.6s, benching 225 25 times, and jumping 38" vertically? I'll fry my turkey in the living room if I know that dude is on the force. How many kids would act out if he was their history teacher?
    Again, you and others have now taken a simple analogy and tried to make it the central issue....it is not.

    This debate, at it's CORE, has nothing to do with Nurses...please stop trying to make this a tit-for-tat comparison.

    Despite what Kevincox wrote, football is - and remains - a GAME. We play it for FUN all across the nation. There are back yards full of 7-year olds who are playing football right now.

    ...there are also thousands of people playing "Doctor"...but that's a different story altogether...

    These athletes play a GAME at a very high level...but it is STILL A GAME.

    When I compare that to any number of other professions, I have a hard time doing so because the others AREN'T games. And, in some of the examples I used, people die if it's done wrong....or sometimes if it's done right.

    But, again, football remains a GAME.

    Now, if you introduce to the conversation the "Closed economy" element, and we solely judge between players and owners - with no other variables introduced - then MAYBE Shiancoe has some merit in his comments...

    The trouble is, it ISN'T a "closed economy". It's a system funded by those same white and blue collar workers I have been talking about. It's actually THEIR money that the owners and players are fighting over. Money that they, the fans, pay to watch a GAME.

    Finally, to respond to Mr. Anderson, I never stated that I could play football to the same level...and I never said that NFL players are incapable of doing any number of other tasks/jobs/occupations.

    I said they play a GAME. A game that I too can play. My initial point was that in as much as that's really all they do - play a game - do they truly DESERVE (as Shiancoe put it) all that money? And before you start pulling names like Birk, Page, or any other to support the "best and the brightest" theory, let me remind you of the plethora of names that fall to the other end of the spectrum, like Pacman Jones or Maurice Clarett.

    My point was that every person who performs in a vital service or organization who DOESN'T get compensated in the millions of dollars might just take offense to statement's like, "We deserve this money", or "I'm just trying to feed my family". Professional athletes are an over compensated lot, and we only have ourselves to blame for it.

    But when billionaires and millionaires fight over who "Deserves" the money...well, my answer is, "Neither one of you do".

    Caine

  2. #62
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
    Purple Floyd is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Shiancoe: With injury risks, NFL players deserve..

    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1092671
    Quote Originally Posted by "Mr Anderson" #1092626
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1092610
    Quote Originally Posted by "jmcdon00" #1092604
    Quote Originally Posted by "slavinator" #1092491
    There are only a few hundred proffessional football players
    53 man roster x 32 teams=1696 players

    I think each team has 8-10 on the practice squad putting the total close to 2,000 current players each year.
    I stand corrected. Point is though there are 3million nurses. Or 15,000 nurses for every 1 nfl player.
    And the counter point is that virtually every one of those 3 million nurses can do what those NFL players can do - maybe a bit slower, but never the less, we can do it...

    Caine
    So ... they can't do what NFL players do? They can't run fast enough, or they aren't strong enough, athletic enough, tough enough, or coordinated enough to be in the NFL, so they cannot do what NFL players do. Being able to do something does not mean you can do it at a professional level. Just because some people play sports for leisure, does not mean these guys do. Some people are carpenters, others do carpentry as a hobby.

    You're comparing innate physical ability to education. I have tons of respect for nurses. A lot of people don't realize how hard they work in school to get where they are. I have 4 close friends in the nursing program here at Rutgers who bust their ass twice as hard as I do every semester. Having said that, you don't have to be 3 standard deviations from mean intelligence to do the job. If athleticism were scaled like IQ, the guys we love to watch on Sundays would fall in the 150+ range. Like I said in my earlier post, roughly .00062% of the US population plays in the NFL, that's about 300 more than attend my former high school. To say anyone at a given job is capable of doing what these guys do is ridiculous. Are there a bunch of people that are big and super athletic that don't play in the NFL? Of course, there's a good chance they're playing another professional sport, but there's also there is also the possibility that they are working ordinary jobs. And as we've all seen, being a physical freak alone is not enough in the NFL, just ask Vernon Gholston. These guys are much more than just bodies.

    So who are you to say that an NFL player couldn't become a nurse, fireman, teacher, or cop? They could put in the education time like anyone else, and in some schools they have to, but a lot of the time they don't. They were born with the physical gifts to play football, yes, a game, at the highest level and make millions off of it. Most of these guys would be great construction workers, excellent police officers, exceptional firemen. None of them could be nurses? Something tells me Matt Birk, Myron Rolle, Steve Young, Alan Page, Dhani Jones, Nnamdi Asomughaa, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Benjamin Watson could pull it off.

    And none of that even matters. They play in the NFL, we're not changing that. And in the NFL, which exists, and will continue to exist for a long time, the players are going to be paid. A lot. And that large amount they're paid individually, is far less than what owners pull in each year.

    On a broad, societal spectrum, do the players "deserve" the money? I wouldn't say they deserve any more money than the most beautiful model, talented musician, or artist.

    In the closed system of revenue that is the NFL, do they deserve it? Yes, they do. Sure the owners are the investors taking the financial risks, and they're making their money, no doubt. But they also came into the team as billionaires, some of them even inherited teams. People watch the game for the players. The players don't come into the NFL with money(usually)and know they have a very limited time to make money playing football. The owners have all the time in the world so long as they're not losing money, and of course business has its ups and downs, but 30% value growth in 4 years creating the 2nd least valuable franchise in the league sounds just fine to me.

    The day the owners open their books and prove that they are actually at risk of collapsing is the day I say the players should be paid less. Until then I'm sticking with my mantra: I'd rather see millionaires maintain their wealth than billionaires get richer.

    And on a side note, I'd feel pretty damn safe if our firemen and cops were as big and athletic as NFL players are. 6'5" 260, running 4.6s, benching 225 25 times, and jumping 38" vertically? I'll fry my turkey in the living room if I know that dude is on the force. How many kids would act out if he was their history teacher?
    Again, you and others have now taken a simple analogy and tried to make it the central issue....it is not.

    This debate, at it's CORE, has nothing to do with Nurses...please stop trying to make this a tit-for-tat comparison.

    Despite what Kevincox wrote, football is - and remains - a GAME. We play it for FUN all across the nation. There are back yards full of 7-year olds who are playing football right now.

    ...there are also thousands of people playing "Doctor"...but that's a different story altogether...

    These athletes play a GAME at a very high level...but it is STILL A GAME.

    When I compare that to any number of other professions, I have a hard time doing so because the others AREN'T games. And, in some of the examples I used, people die if it's done wrong....or sometimes if it's done right.

    But, again, football remains a GAME.

    Now, if you introduce to the conversation the "Closed economy" element, and we solely judge between players and owners - with no other variables introduced - then MAYBE Shiancoe has some merit in his comments...

    The trouble is, it ISN'T a "closed economy". It's a system funded by those same white and blue collar workers I have been talking about. It's actually THEIR money that the owners and players are fighting over. Money that they, the fans, pay to watch a GAME.

    Finally, to respond to Mr. Anderson, I never stated that I could play football to the same level...and I never said that NFL players are incapable of doing any number of other tasks/jobs/occupations.

    I said they play a GAME. A game that I too can play. My initial point was that in as much as that's really all they do - play a game - do they truly DESERVE (as Shiancoe put it) all that money? And before you start pulling names like Birk, Page, or any other to support the "best and the brightest" theory, let me remind you of the plethora of names that fall to the other end of the spectrum, like Pacman Jones or Maurice Clarett.

    My point was that every person who performs in a vital service or organization who DOESN'T get compensated in the millions of dollars might just take offense to statement's like, "We deserve this money", or "I'm just trying to feed my family". Professional athletes are an over compensated lot, and we only have ourselves to blame for it.

    But when billionaires and millionaires fight over who "Deserves" the money...well, my answer is, "Neither one of you do".

    Caine

    I think I came up with a good analogy by using my Parcheesi club as an example.

    So first you have.......

    Aw, hell with it. No one is going to buy it anyway.:cheer:

  3. #63
    Walter Clock is offline Training Camp
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    Re: Shiancoe: With injury risks, NFL players deserve..

    I think they make more than coal miners and those guys on deadliest catch. Pretty sure that's more dangerous. If you don't think you are being paid well enough to work for employer X then find a different job, that's what the rest of us do.
    None

  4. #64
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    jmcdon00 is offline Jersey Retired Snake Champion, Moto Trial Fest 2: Mountain Pack Champion, LL City Truck 2 Champion, Arithmetic sequence Champion, Troops Tower Defense Champion
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    Re: Shiancoe: With injury risks, NFL players deserve..

    Quote Originally Posted by "Walter Clock" #1092695
    I think they make more than coal miners and those guys on deadliest catch. Pretty sure that's more dangerous. If you don't think you are being paid well enough to work for employer X then find a different job, that's what the rest of us do.
    Most union employees go on strike and use there collective bargaining power to strong arm the employer into paying higher wages. B)
    Been done thousands of times.

    Another option is to sue the employer.

  5. #65
    Caine's Avatar
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    Re: Shiancoe: With injury risks, NFL players deserve..

    Quote Originally Posted by "jmcdon00" #1092698
    Quote Originally Posted by "Walter Clock" #1092695
    I think they make more than coal miners and those guys on deadliest catch. Pretty sure that's more dangerous. If you don't think you are being paid well enough to work for employer X then find a different job, that's what the rest of us do.
    Most union employees go on strike and use there collective bargaining power to strong arm the employer into paying higher wages. B)
    Been done thousands of times.

    Another option is to sue the employer.
    Unions are losing their teeth, however, as most companies simply ship the jobs overseas. That's how I wound up a Nurse. My UAW (United Auto Workers) job went to Mexico.

    Kind of hard to strong arm your employer into better wages when he's got people in China who will work for 30 cents an hour...

    ...sure, they don't do it as well...and their quality is a little lower...

    Caine

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