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  1. #11
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    Re: Shiancoe: With injury risks, NFL players deserve..

    You are wrong on several statements in here and I would like to address them.

    Quote Originally Posted by "ejmat" #1092169
    The owners did opt out of what was the contract and had every right to do so. The main reason was because of the ridiculous rookie salaries that were costing teams many years when their draft became a bust. The owners are not asking the current players to take pay cuts at all. Even if they did, they still earned that right as owners. The players have choices. Take the salaries/benefits offered to them or go find another job. The same choice you or I would face in this type of scenerio.
    Wrong! the main reason was not because of Rookie contracts. Hell has that even been addressed yet. It's about the split of revenue. Simple and plain. The other issues are secondary. The owners are asking players to take pay cuts. 59% of 1 million > 50% of 1 million. Simple math really. There are jobs where owners do not have the right to tell someone how much to make. These jobs are governed by a union and wages and benefits have been negotiated ahead of time. This is not your job!!!!! It's a job where wages are negotiated. It's not a choice you and I would face because. There would be no NFL if all of the NFL players walked away. The game would suffer. Do you really think you would want to watch Colts vs. Pats with Joey Harrington and Jeff George playing? Wait, those guys are former players and would hold out for their best interest and not play.


    Quote Originally Posted by "ejmat" #1092169
    As to APs comments - All I have to ask you is show me ONE, I repeat, ONE "slave" that earned millions of dollars. Once again, the players have choices. They don't have to sign a contract if they don't want to. There have been a few players that whined their way to another team like Eli Manning and John Elway to name a couple. If the players are unhappy where they are going then don't go. The term "slavery" is the most assinine term to use when trying to compare these two situations.
    Can I name a slave that made millions? Nope, can you address my point that gladiators of the Roman era were themselves slaves, yet were wealthy, famous, and beloved. I don't know AP but I don't know what type of slavery he had in mind when he mentioned the word. Why don't you ask him? Why don't you address my point that in some institutions of slavery, slaves were paid, slaves were worshiped,some common free men desired to be able to do what slaves did in their arena of competition. Damn.... this sounds very familiar to a modern day sport we have today.....

    Quote Originally Posted by "ejmat" #1092169
    Now to go back to Shiancoe's comments. His logic was taken from how he "risks his life" out on the playing field so the players should get more money. You want to tell me again how it has nothing to do with the players not getting more money? The owners have every right to establish a worth of a player they hire. The player has a right not to sign a contract. Again, I urge Shiancoe to go get a different job if he is not happy with what he gets paid.
    Again Shank =/= you. His comments were....that the players deserve the money that the owners and players are arguing over because they are the ones that risk their health, lives, etc... not the owners. It has nothing to do with what war you fought in, or someone else is fighting in. How you and others are interjecting themselves into this.... I don't have the foggiest idea. Again, It's like two people fighting over a parking spot, one says he deserves it because he's elderly and has paid his time. The other is a 16 year old girl. You start talking about how the elderly person should give it to your mother because she's older that he is even though she is at home. WTF does that have to do with who has access to the spot. He is talking about who deserves the money more the owners or the players.... in his opinion, he deserves it more as a player because his life will never be the same again after playing this sport.

  2. #12
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    Re: Shiancoe: With injury risks, NFL players deserve..

    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1092177
    The Arena Football League - which has a FAR higher incidence of injury than the NFL used to pay players @ $140,000 per year.

    Not a bad salary, compared to most, but not enough to get rich on.

    They now offer $400 per game...and people still play.

    http://www.asylum.com/2010/03/01/jeremy-unertl-players-dish-the-dirt-on-arena-football-leagues-return/

    Don't tell me NFL players "DESERVE" the money...they don't.

    There are dozens of jobs more dangerous than the NFL...none of which make a FRACTION of what an NFL player makes, but all far more VITAL to our nation than teh NFL is.

    Sorry, Vishante...as an overpaid member of an overpaid class, I politely exercise my right to say, "BULLSHIT".

    Caine
    He is talking about who deserves it more, the owners or players. Those other jobs are of no revelance because the owners aren't going to start paying firemen the extra money. They are going to take it and continue to do what the are currently doing ( making millions)

  3. #13
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    Re: Shiancoe: With injury risks, NFL players deserve..

    If there are 60 players on a team including the practice squad, ~.00062% of the US population plays in the NFL.

    I recently read that around 1.1 million high school students play football in the US each year. So ~.17% of high school football players go on to the NFL, that even seems high, but let's pretend it's accurate.

    Why does that small group of athletes get paid so much? Because of us, the fans.

    We watch every chance we get, NFL Network, ESPN, you name it. We read SI, PFT, Yahoo, etc. We spend money on tickets, apparel, beer, food, other stadium goods. We buy the products that CBS, ESPN, FOX, and NBC advertise in order to pay the NFL the billions of dollars it takes to secure broadcasting rights. We even sit in front of computers and argue(or discuss) like children about the game months after the season has ended, and months before it is due to start again.

    Why do we do all that? Because that top .17% of players are damn good. I love to watch Adrian Peterson run, I'm in awe of Tom Brady and Peyton Manning, I'm blown away by Michael Vick, Andre, Calvin, and Chris Johnson. We watch the game for the players, they are amazing at what they do. The NFL wouldn't generate $9 billion a year if these athletes weren't so outstanding.

    Want to complain about how much they're getting paid? Stop watching, stop reading, stop posting, stop paying.

    Try watching baseball, basketball, or boxing instead, maybe then you'll realize, when compared to other professional athletes, NFL players aren't being overpaid. Floyd Mayweather made $22.5 million for his fight with Shane Mosley, that's $500,000 per minute of action. NBA players make over $5 million on average, players in the MLB make over $3 million and their leagues barely combine to generate as much revenue as the NFL. What do NFL players make on average? $1.8 million. Which is crazy high for playing a game for a few months. But when you're playing that game at such level and there are tens of millions of people paying your salary is it really that ridiculous?

    The military, police, fire, etc. comparison is apples to oranges, or apples to spaceships. It's so irrelevant that it may as well not exist. No one* is getting rich off of their honorable labor, it is public service, not entertainment. If the police were privatized and somehow created billions of dollars a year and the business owner asked them to work more hours for less pay, they'd fight back too.

    Entertainers and athletes have been used by studios and franchise owners to get rich forever. Now the owners want to ask them to play more games for less money? They have the right to fight to maintain what they're making, why should someone else get richer on their labor?

    I've said this in other threads and I'll repeat it here: I'd rather see millionaires maintain their wealth than billionaires get richer.

    Is it unfair that so many people bust their ass everyday and barely get by?
    -Of course it is.
    Is it unfair that people perform more dangerous jobs and get paid less than NFL players?
    -Damn straight.
    Does that change the fact that the NFL is making billions in revenue?
    -No.
    So why should a percentage of that revenue be taken away from the people who really earn it?
    -It shouldn't.





    * Not no one, some people are getting very rich off of the wars, but that's not relevant.

  4. #14
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    Re: Shiancoe: With injury risks, NFL players deserve..

    Nice post Mr. A. Pretty much sums up my stance on the whole issue. Most of the comparisons we keep hearing are completely apples/oranges.

  5. #15
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    Re: Shiancoe: With injury risks, NFL players deserve..

    Quote Originally Posted by "Mr Anderson" #1092202
    If there are 60 players on a team including the practice squad, ~.00062% of the US population plays in the NFL.

    I recently read that around 1.1 million high school students play football in the US each year. So ~.17% of high school football players go on to the NFL, that even seems high, but let's pretend it's accurate.

    Why does that small group of athletes get paid so much? Because of us, the fans.

    We watch every chance we get, NFL Network, ESPN, you name it. We read SI, PFT, Yahoo, etc. We spend money on tickets, apparel, beer, food, other stadium goods. We buy the products that CBS, ESPN, FOX, and NBC advertise in order to pay the NFL the billions of dollars it takes to secure broadcasting rights. We even sit in front of computers and argue(or discuss) like children about the game months after the season has ended, and months before it is due to start again.

    Why do we do all that? Because that top .17% of players are damn good. I love to watch Adrian Peterson run, I'm in awe of Tom Brady and Peyton Manning, I'm blown away by Michael Vick, Andre, Calvin, and Chris Johnson. We watch the game for the players, they are amazing at what they do. The NFL wouldn't generate $9 billion a year if these athletes weren't so outstanding.

    Want to complain about how much they're getting paid? Stop watching, stop reading, stop posting, stop paying.

    Try watching baseball, basketball, or boxing instead, maybe then you'll realize, when compared to other professional athletes, NFL players aren't being overpaid. Floyd Mayweather made $22.5 million for his fight with Shane Mosley, that's $500,000 per minute of action. NBA players make over $5 million on average, players in the MLB make over $3 million and their leagues barely combine to generate as much revenue as the NFL. What do NFL players make on average? $1.8 million. Which is crazy high for playing a game for a few months. But when you're playing that game at such level and there are tens of millions of people paying your salary is it really that ridiculous?

    The military, police, fire, etc. comparison is apples to oranges, or apples to spaceships. It's so irrelevant that it may as well not exist. No one* is getting rich off of their honorable labor, it is public service, not entertainment. If the police were privatized and somehow created billions of dollars a year and the business owner asked them to work more hours for less pay, they'd fight back too.

    Entertainers and athletes have been used by studios and franchise owners to get rich forever. Now the owners want to ask them to play more games for less money? They have the right to fight to maintain what they're making, why should someone else get richer on their labor?

    I've said this in other threads and I'll repeat it here: I'd rather see millionaires maintain their wealth than billionaires get richer.

    Is it unfair that so many people bust their ass everyday and barely get by?
    -Of course it is.
    Is it unfair that people perform more dangerous jobs and get paid less than NFL players?
    -Damn straight.
    Does that change the fact that the NFL is making billions in revenue?
    -No.
    So why should a percentage of that revenue be taken away from the people who really earn it?
    -It shouldn't.





    * Not no one, some people are getting very rich off of the wars, but that's not relevant.
    My god! You said everything i wanted to say, so much better. I don't understand why people put themselves into the equation. If you could play in the NFL, you would be asking that the owners treat you fairly too.

  6. #16
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    Re: Shiancoe: With injury risks, NFL players deserve..

    Quote Originally Posted by "Mr Anderson" #1092202
    If there are 60 players on a team including the practice squad, ~.00062% of the US population plays in the NFL.

    I recently read that around 1.1 million high school students play football in the US each year. So ~.17% of high school football players go on to the NFL, that even seems high, but let's pretend it's accurate.

    Why does that small group of athletes get paid so much? Because of us, the fans.

    We watch every chance we get, NFL Network, ESPN, you name it. We read SI, PFT, Yahoo, etc. We spend money on tickets, apparel, beer, food, other stadium goods. We buy the products that CBS, ESPN, FOX, and NBC advertise in order to pay the NFL the billions of dollars it takes to secure broadcasting rights. We even sit in front of computers and argue(or discuss) like children about the game months after the season has ended, and months before it is due to start again.

    Why do we do all that? Because that top .17% of players are damn good. I love to watch Adrian Peterson run, I'm in awe of Tom Brady and Peyton Manning, I'm blown away by Michael Vick, Andre, Calvin, and Chris Johnson. We watch the game for the players, they are amazing at what they do. The NFL wouldn't generate $9 billion a year if these athletes weren't so outstanding.

    Want to complain about how much they're getting paid? Stop watching, stop reading, stop posting, stop paying.

    Try watching baseball, basketball, or boxing instead, maybe then you'll realize, when compared to other professional athletes, NFL players aren't being overpaid. Floyd Mayweather made $22.5 million for his fight with Shane Mosley, that's $500,000 per minute of action. NBA players make over $5 million on average, players in the MLB make over $3 million and their leagues barely combine to generate as much revenue as the NFL. What do NFL players make on average? $1.8 million. Which is crazy high for playing a game for a few months. But when you're playing that game at such level and there are tens of millions of people paying your salary is it really that ridiculous?

    The military, police, fire, etc. comparison is apples to oranges, or apples to spaceships. It's so irrelevant that it may as well not exist. No one* is getting rich off of their honorable labor, it is public service, not entertainment. If the police were privatized and somehow created billions of dollars a year and the business owner asked them to work more hours for less pay, they'd fight back too.

    Entertainers and athletes have been used by studios and franchise owners to get rich forever. Now the owners want to ask them to play more games for less money? They have the right to fight to maintain what they're making, why should someone else get richer on their labor?

    I've said this in other threads and I'll repeat it here: I'd rather see millionaires maintain their wealth than billionaires get richer.

    Is it unfair that so many people bust their ass everyday and barely get by?
    -Of course it is.
    Is it unfair that people perform more dangerous jobs and get paid less than NFL players?
    -Damn straight.
    Does that change the fact that the NFL is making billions in revenue?
    -No.
    So why should a percentage of that revenue be taken away from the people who really earn it?
    -It shouldn't.





    * Not no one, some people are getting very rich off of the wars, but that's not relevant.
    Mr A
    I normally agree with your posts. Even when I don't agree, I feel they are well thought out and well written. That post there is a masterpiece. Well done.
    Why must you defend everything this FO does....to the point of making your self look like a yes man.

  7. #17
    Caine's Avatar
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    Re: Shiancoe: With injury risks, NFL players deserve..

    Quote Originally Posted by "kevoncox" #1092200
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1092177
    The Arena Football League - which has a FAR higher incidence of injury than the NFL used to pay players @ $140,000 per year.

    Not a bad salary, compared to most, but not enough to get rich on.

    They now offer $400 per game...and people still play.

    http://www.asylum.com/2010/03/01/jeremy-unertl-players-dish-the-dirt-on-arena-football-leagues-return/

    Don't tell me NFL players "DESERVE" the money...they don't.

    There are dozens of jobs more dangerous than the NFL...none of which make a FRACTION of what an NFL player makes, but all far more VITAL to our nation than teh NFL is.

    Sorry, Vishante...as an overpaid member of an overpaid class, I politely exercise my right to say, "BULLSHIT".

    Caine
    He is talking about who deserves it more, the owners or players. Those other jobs are of no revelance because the owners aren't going to start paying firemen the extra money. They are going to take it and continue to do what the are currently doing ( making millions)
    To be honest, neither one "Deserves" it...

    Let them give it back to US in the form of ticket and memorabilia price reductions.

    Yeah, I know it will never happen, but when two different over paid jackasses start using terms like "deserve" and "earned", I get a bit annoyed...

    Caine

  8. #18
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    Re: Shiancoe: With injury risks, NFL players deserve..

    Figures obtained by AP: NFL players got 53 percent of incremental increases to all revenues

    A good read on the last CBA and what is being fought over.......

  9. #19
    ejmat is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Shiancoe: With injury risks, NFL players deserve..

    Quote Originally Posted by "kevoncox" #1092200
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1092177
    The Arena Football League - which has a FAR higher incidence of injury than the NFL used to pay players @ $140,000 per year.

    Not a bad salary, compared to most, but not enough to get rich on.

    They now offer $400 per game...and people still play.

    http://www.asylum.com/2010/03/01/jeremy-unertl-players-dish-the-dirt-on-arena-football-leagues-return/

    Don't tell me NFL players "DESERVE" the money...they don't.

    There are dozens of jobs more dangerous than the NFL...none of which make a FRACTION of what an NFL player makes, but all far more VITAL to our nation than teh NFL is.

    Sorry, Vishante...as an overpaid member of an overpaid class, I politely exercise my right to say, "BULLSHIT".

    Caine
    He is talking about who deserves it more, the owners or players. Those other jobs are of no revelance because the owners aren't going to start paying firemen the extra money. They are going to take it and continue to do what the are currently doing ( making millions)
    First I will address some of your other post in a different post. But where the fuck did you get from my post the owners deserve anything more than the players? Please show me where I ever stated that.

    What I am saying is the owners have every right to pay a player what they feel they are worth. The players have every right to accept or not accept what the owners are offering them. So if you are going to try and tell me I'm "wrong" first understand what the fuck I'm trying to say

  10. #20
    ejmat is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Shiancoe: With injury risks, NFL players deserve..

    Quote Originally Posted by "kevoncox" #1092199
    You are wrong on several statements in here and I would like to address them.

    Quote Originally Posted by "ejmat" #1092169
    The owners did opt out of what was the contract and had every right to do so. The main reason was because of the ridiculous rookie salaries that were costing teams many years when their draft became a bust. The owners are not asking the current players to take pay cuts at all. Even if they did, they still earned that right as owners. The players have choices. Take the salaries/benefits offered to them or go find another job. The same choice you or I would face in this type of scenerio.
    Wrong! the main reason was not because of Rookie contracts. Hell has that even been addressed yet. It's about the split of revenue. Simple and plain. The other issues are secondary. The owners are asking players to take pay cuts. 59% of 1 million > 50% of 1 million. Simple math really. There are jobs where owners do not have the right to tell someone how much to make. These jobs are governed by a union and wages and benefits have been negotiated ahead of time. This is not your job!!!!! It's a job where wages are negotiated. It's not a choice you and I would face because. There would be no NFL if all of the NFL players walked away. The game would suffer. Do you really think you would want to watch Colts vs. Pats with Joey Harrington and Jeff George playing? Wait, those guys are former players and would hold out for their best interest and not play.


    Quote Originally Posted by "ejmat" #1092169
    As to APs comments - All I have to ask you is show me ONE, I repeat, ONE "slave" that earned millions of dollars. Once again, the players have choices. They don't have to sign a contract if they don't want to. There have been a few players that whined their way to another team like Eli Manning and John Elway to name a couple. If the players are unhappy where they are going then don't go. The term "slavery" is the most assinine term to use when trying to compare these two situations.
    Can I name a slave that made millions? Nope, can you address my point that gladiators of the Roman era were themselves slaves, yet were wealthy, famous, and beloved. I don't know AP but I don't know what type of slavery he had in mind when he mentioned the word. Why don't you ask him? Why don't you address my point that in some institutions of slavery, slaves were paid, slaves were worshiped,some common free men desired to be able to do what slaves did in their arena of competition. Damn.... this sounds very familiar to a modern day sport we have today.....

    Quote Originally Posted by "ejmat" #1092169
    Now to go back to Shiancoe's comments. His logic was taken from how he "risks his life" out on the playing field so the players should get more money. You want to tell me again how it has nothing to do with the players not getting more money? The owners have every right to establish a worth of a player they hire. The player has a right not to sign a contract. Again, I urge Shiancoe to go get a different job if he is not happy with what he gets paid.
    Again Shank =/= you. His comments were....that the players deserve the money that the owners and players are arguing over because they are the ones that risk their health, lives, etc... not the owners. It has nothing to do with what war you fought in, or someone else is fighting in. How you and others are interjecting themselves into this.... I don't have the foggiest idea. Again, It's like two people fighting over a parking spot, one says he deserves it because he's elderly and has paid his time. The other is a 16 year old girl. You start talking about how the elderly person should give it to your mother because she's older that he is even though she is at home. WTF does that have to do with who has access to the spot. He is talking about who deserves the money more the owners or the players.... in his opinion, he deserves it more as a player because his life will never be the same again after playing this sport.
    I am not going to quote your post as I know I am going to get long winded here. So bare with me and try to keep focused.

    1) Rookie contracts were a huge reason (maybe not the main reason) why they opted out of the oriiginal contract. There were many reasons for them doing it. Yes, they have every right to do it. You are pretty out of touch of reality if you think a business owner doesn't have a right to tell an employee to take a paycut. It's happening on so many different levels in our world today. Hint we are going through a very long recession, remember? There are plenty of workers that are not only taking a pay cut but taking a job cut as well. Again, the player has a right to not accept the offer. They can go find another job or stay in the job they are in now. Plain and simple math really

    2) Where the hell do you come up with Gladiators from Rome from this topic? What does this have to do with any of it? I'm not questioning what AP said or why he said it. What I am questioning is the comparison. The players have a right to make choices. Play or don't play. Accept or don't accept contracts. Make millions or don't make millions. Most slaves I read about didn't have these types of choices. If you're going to ask me to address a point don't make it sound as if you've been asking for 10 years. You JUST brought it up and it's really a bunch of BS if you ask me. AP made his statement. It is what it is. I don't have to decifer what he meant. I know what he meant. What he said truly made him look foolish. If you agree with him, go ahead. I don't nor will I no matter how much I like the guy or how good of an athlete he is. What I can tell you is it is pretty stupid because these types of quotes from the players are truly hurting their cause.

    3) Your post regarding Shiancoe has to be one of the most out of touch posts I've ever read. Do you hear what you are saying? I read the article and know exactly what he said. You don't have to point it out to me again. I was sick the first time I read it and get sicker each and every time I read it. The reason why people interject themselves as you are putting it is because most people in this world work in places that can cause injuries or death. Shiancoe's main reason (as you plainly admit) is the players deserve more money because they are putting their lives/bodies at risk. The comparison that other people do the same is very valid whether or not you agree with it. The fact is the owners have EVERY Right to pay a player what they think they are worth. After all, aren't the owners the people that spend thier money to purchase the organization? Or is it the players? Nope, it's the owners. Therefore the owners (not the players) have the right to pay a player what they want to pay them. Who hires who? Do the owners hire the players or do the players hire the owners? The owners have the right to share whatever revenues (if any) they want. The players have the right to do whatever they want. If they want more money go ahead and ask for it. But don't whine to the average joe about the millions they already make when their ONLY valid point is they put their bodies at risk. The comparison, and now would be a good time to listen to what I am saying, that everyone is interjecting themselves is because they too put their lives at risk (i.e. firefighters, police, military, etc...) and each and every one of them have a choice (just like the players). Does that sound familar to you yet?

    You see it's pretty simple. Owners put out THEIR money to buy a team. The OWNERS hire the coaches and players to work for THEM. If the owners think a player or their whole team is worth paying them some of their revenue then they have the coice to do it. They also have the choice NOT to do it. That is where the players and those that are trying to agree with their "oh woe is me" argument are out of touch with erality. Especially during these difficult times for a lot of people.

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