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  1. #81
    BloodyHorns82's Avatar
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    Re:Sage vs. Webb vs. Tjack

    jmcdon00 wrote:
    BloodyHorns82 wrote:
    NodakPaul wrote:
    BloodyHorns82 wrote:
    NodakPaul wrote:
    jmcdon00 wrote:
    I don't think those stats should be used to compare to Favre who plays when it counts. But to compare to Sage or Webb I think it's probably more valuable than preseason.

    Last two years Tjack's stats:
    47/75 62% 564yds 4td 0int 0fumble

    Sage
    49/78 62% 624yds 4td 1int 1fumble
    So pretty much identical. Especially if you add in TJack's playoff game (why do people keep leaving that out?).

    Either way, it still tells me that neither one is starter material.
    I think those stats he posted were from preseason only.
    My bad, thanks for the correction.

    OK, pretty damn even. IDK - I won't cry regardless of which one gets the boot. Neither one of them is the future of the Vikings.
    Not sure why I corrected you, I think either way your point still stands.

    If you look at Jackson's stats, he can manage a game. But in today's NFL a game manager isn't going to cut it. Gone are the days of only run first/stop the run. You need more than a running game to win championships.

    All of the elite teams have good passing games.

    Sage seems to have the ability to drive the field and make some plays but I question his consistency and turnovers and decision making.
    2009 The Jets made the AFC championship game with the 31st ranked pass offense.
    2008 the Steelers won the superbowl with the 18th ranked pass offense. Baltimore made the AFC championship game with the 22nd ranked pass offense.
    2007 Giants won the superbowl with the 21st ranked pass offense. San Diego made the AFC championship game with the 26th ranked pass offense.
    I exaggerated by saying "every", but I'm sure you saw my point when digging for stats.

    Of the nearly 100 teams of the past 3 years you were able to find 4 teams and some of them I would argue were not elite simply because they made it far into the playoffs one season.

    4% of teams with mediocre passing games made it deep in the playoffs in the past 3 years, 1 terrible passing game (09 'Jets) and they didn't make the big dance (largely due to their inability to pass the ball in the championship game). Yippie.

    Passing games are necessary.

  2. #82
    BloodyHorns82's Avatar
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    Re:Sage vs. Webb vs. Tjack

    jmcdon00 wrote:
    gagarr wrote:
    Question:

    Will the QB's performance in the final preseason game mean anything or will Chilly blindly go with TJ regardless?
    I think the decision has been made. I don't think it is a blind decision though as the coaches(not just chilly) have had two years to watch the two compete.
    Didn't we just bring Sage on board last season? Or has it been two years already?

    Additionally, what other coaches are going to have a say in who starts? Bevel? Doesn't the HC generally decide who starts? (unless you play on the Raiders)

    A lot of articles are floating around right now in media land confused as to the confidence in placing TJack over Sage. Chilly says it's because of what he has seen in practice. That concerns me...I'd be happier if they placed some merit on game situations as well.

    One of the big knacks on Jackson is that he can't handle the pressure. Practice is easy. Stepping it up in the game is a whole different animal.

  3. #83
    jmcdon00's Avatar
    jmcdon00 is offline Jersey Retired Snake Champion, Moto Trial Fest 2: Mountain Pack Champion, LL City Truck 2 Champion, Arithmetic sequence Champion, Troops Tower Defense Champion
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    Re:Sage vs. Webb vs. Tjack

    BloodyHorns82 wrote:
    jmcdon00 wrote:
    BloodyHorns82 wrote:
    NodakPaul wrote:
    BloodyHorns82 wrote:
    NodakPaul wrote:
    jmcdon00 wrote:
    I don't think those stats should be used to compare to Favre who plays when it counts. But to compare to Sage or Webb I think it's probably more valuable than preseason.

    Last two years Tjack's stats:
    47/75 62% 564yds 4td 0int 0fumble

    Sage
    49/78 62% 624yds 4td 1int 1fumble
    So pretty much identical. Especially if you add in TJack's playoff game (why do people keep leaving that out?).

    Either way, it still tells me that neither one is starter material.
    I think those stats he posted were from preseason only.
    My bad, thanks for the correction.

    OK, pretty damn even. IDK - I won't cry regardless of which one gets the boot. Neither one of them is the future of the Vikings.
    Not sure why I corrected you, I think either way your point still stands.

    If you look at Jackson's stats, he can manage a game. But in today's NFL a game manager isn't going to cut it. Gone are the days of only run first/stop the run. You need more than a running game to win championships.

    All of the elite teams have good passing games.

    Sage seems to have the ability to drive the field and make some plays but I question his consistency and turnovers and decision making.
    2009 The Jets made the AFC championship game with the 31st ranked pass offense.
    2008 the Steelers won the superbowl with the 18th ranked pass offense. Baltimore made the AFC championship game with the 22nd ranked pass offense.
    2007 Giants won the superbowl with the 21st ranked pass offense. San Diego made the AFC championship game with the 26th ranked pass offense.
    I exaggerated by saying "every", but I'm sure you saw my point when digging for stats.

    Of the nearly 100 teams of the past 3 years you were able to find 4 teams and some of them I would argue were not elite simply because they made it far into the playoffs one season.

    4% of teams with mediocre passing games made it deep in the playoffs in the past 3 years, 1 terrible passing game (09 'Jets) and they didn't make the big dance (largely due to their inability to pass the ball in the championship game). Yippie.

    Passing games are necessary.
    2 of the last 3 superbowl winners had below average passing attacks. 3 out of the last 5.
    Obviously it helps to have a good passing game. But it's still not as important as having a good defense.

  4. #84
    jmcdon00's Avatar
    jmcdon00 is offline Jersey Retired Snake Champion, Moto Trial Fest 2: Mountain Pack Champion, LL City Truck 2 Champion, Arithmetic sequence Champion, Troops Tower Defense Champion
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    Re:Sage vs. Webb vs. Tjack

    BloodyHorns82 wrote:
    jmcdon00 wrote:
    gagarr wrote:
    Question:

    Will the QB's performance in the final preseason game mean anything or will Chilly blindly go with TJ regardless?
    I think the decision has been made. I don't think it is a blind decision though as the coaches(not just chilly) have had two years to watch the two compete.
    Didn't we just bring Sage on board last season? Or has it been two years already?

    Additionally, what other coaches are going to have a say in who starts? Bevel? Doesn't the HC generally decide who starts? (unless you play on the Raiders)

    A lot of articles are floating around right now in media land confused as to the confidence in placing TJack over Sage. Chilly says it's because of what he has seen in practice. That concerns me...I'd be happier if they placed some merit on game situations as well.

    One of the big knacks on Jackson is that he can't handle the pressure. Practice is easy. Stepping it up in the game is a whole different animal.
    Sage has been here for 18 months. 2 training camps, 2 preseassons.

    I think Bevell has an opinion. As does the Spielman. As does the QB coach. Chilly may have the final say but I highly doubt he makes the decision without consulting others on his staff.

  5. #85
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Re:Sage vs. Webb vs. Tjack

    jmcdon00 wrote:
    Sage has been here for 18 months. 2 training camps, 2 preseassons.

    I think Bevell has an opinion. As does the Spielman. As does the QB coach. Chilly may have the final say but I highly doubt he makes the decision without consulting others on his staff.
    Some deep words of wisdom right there my friends.

    Excellent post JMC....
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  6. #86
    gagarr's Avatar
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    Re:Sage vs. Webb vs. Tjack

    jmcdon00 wrote:
    BloodyHorns82 wrote:
    jmcdon00 wrote:
    gagarr wrote:
    Question:

    Will the QB's performance in the final preseason game mean anything or will Chilly blindly go with TJ regardless?
    I think the decision has been made. I don't think it is a blind decision though as the coaches(not just chilly) have had two years to watch the two compete.
    Didn't we just bring Sage on board last season? Or has it been two years already?

    Additionally, what other coaches are going to have a say in who starts? Bevel? Doesn't the HC generally decide who starts? (unless you play on the Raiders)

    A lot of articles are floating around right now in media land confused as to the confidence in placing TJack over Sage. Chilly says it's because of what he has seen in practice. That concerns me...I'd be happier if they placed some merit on game situations as well.

    One of the big knacks on Jackson is that he can't handle the pressure. Practice is easy. Stepping it up in the game is a whole different animal.
    Sage has been here for 18 months. 2 training camps, 2 preseassons.

    I think Bevell has an opinion. As does the Spielman. As does the QB coach. Chilly may have the final say but I highly doubt he makes the decision without consulting others on his staff.
    Wasn't it 2 years ago at this time when Chilly crowned TJ the starter because he had such a GREAT training camp, only to have TJ fall on his face when it came to game time?

    Chilly's ego is getting in the way, he drafted TJ and just won't give up on him until it is too late. The only good thing is if it happens maybe Wilf will can his ass.
    [size=12pt]
    Page 148.5 **Doleman 150.5 **Randle 137.5 **Allen 73+
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  7. #87
    BloodyHorns82's Avatar
    BloodyHorns82 is offline Jersey Retired Feed The Frog Champion
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    Re:Sage vs. Webb vs. Tjack

    jmcdon00 wrote:
    BloodyHorns82 wrote:
    jmcdon00 wrote:
    BloodyHorns82 wrote:
    NodakPaul wrote:
    BloodyHorns82 wrote:
    NodakPaul wrote:
    jmcdon00 wrote:
    I don't think those stats should be used to compare to Favre who plays when it counts. But to compare to Sage or Webb I think it's probably more valuable than preseason.

    Last two years Tjack's stats:
    47/75 62% 564yds 4td 0int 0fumble

    Sage
    49/78 62% 624yds 4td 1int 1fumble
    So pretty much identical. Especially if you add in TJack's playoff game (why do people keep leaving that out?).

    Either way, it still tells me that neither one is starter material.
    I think those stats he posted were from preseason only.
    My bad, thanks for the correction.

    OK, pretty damn even. IDK - I won't cry regardless of which one gets the boot. Neither one of them is the future of the Vikings.
    Not sure why I corrected you, I think either way your point still stands.

    If you look at Jackson's stats, he can manage a game. But in today's NFL a game manager isn't going to cut it. Gone are the days of only run first/stop the run. You need more than a running game to win championships.

    All of the elite teams have good passing games.

    Sage seems to have the ability to drive the field and make some plays but I question his consistency and turnovers and decision making.
    2009 The Jets made the AFC championship game with the 31st ranked pass offense.
    2008 the Steelers won the superbowl with the 18th ranked pass offense. Baltimore made the AFC championship game with the 22nd ranked pass offense.
    2007 Giants won the superbowl with the 21st ranked pass offense. San Diego made the AFC championship game with the 26th ranked pass offense.
    I exaggerated by saying "every", but I'm sure you saw my point when digging for stats.

    Of the nearly 100 teams of the past 3 years you were able to find 4 teams and some of them I would argue were not elite simply because they made it far into the playoffs one season.

    4% of teams with mediocre passing games made it deep in the playoffs in the past 3 years, 1 terrible passing game (09 'Jets) and they didn't make the big dance (largely due to their inability to pass the ball in the championship game). Yippie.

    Passing games are necessary.
    2 of the last 3 superbowl winners had below average passing attacks. 3 out of the last 5.
    Obviously it helps to have a good passing game. But it's still not as important as having a good defense.
    They may have had slightly below average passing rankings, but they had more than game managers at QB. Something of which TJack is not. Neither Eli or Ben are game managers.

    It's hard to compare QBs because Jackson hasn't yet convinced the coachign staff he's good enough to start for a full season. To date, Jackson has never broken the 2000 yard mark in a season.

    Giants SB Year: Eli had over 3200 yards passing and 21 TDs, 10 INTs (I'll give you average here)

    Steelers SB Year: Ben had over 3150 yards passing and 32 Tds, 11 INTS

    Those numbers look better than average to me. What were you using for your passing stat that placed the team below average? I'd like to know how many teams had more than 32 passing TDs in 2007.

  8. #88
    BloodyHorns82's Avatar
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    Re:Sage vs. Webb vs. Tjack

    Marrdro wrote:
    jmcdon00 wrote:
    Sage has been here for 18 months. 2 training camps, 2 preseassons.

    I think Bevell has an opinion. As does the Spielman. As does the QB coach. Chilly may have the final say but I highly doubt he makes the decision without consulting others on his staff.
    Some deep words of wisdom right there my friends.

    Excellent post JMC....
    Marr, you're definitely not helping JMC's argument by agreeing with him in a QB debate. lol. :P

  9. #89
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Re:Sage vs. Webb vs. Tjack

    gagarr wrote:
    Chilly's ego is getting in the way, he drafted TJ and just won't give up on him until it is too late. The only good thing is if it happens maybe Wilf will can his ass.
    Are you still holding onto the belief that the Chiller runs around making decisions all by himself?

    Additionally, why would the Wilfs fire the Chiller? Hasn't the team gotten further and further each and every year?

    Makes no sense to think otherwise. Course, I sometime miss the sense in things that other see.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  10. #90
    jmcdon00's Avatar
    jmcdon00 is offline Jersey Retired Snake Champion, Moto Trial Fest 2: Mountain Pack Champion, LL City Truck 2 Champion, Arithmetic sequence Champion, Troops Tower Defense Champion
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    Re:Sage vs. Webb vs. Tjack

    BloodyHorns82 wrote:
    jmcdon00 wrote:
    BloodyHorns82 wrote:
    jmcdon00 wrote:
    BloodyHorns82 wrote:
    NodakPaul wrote:
    BloodyHorns82 wrote:
    NodakPaul wrote:
    jmcdon00 wrote:
    I don't think those stats should be used to compare to Favre who plays when it counts. But to compare to Sage or Webb I think it's probably more valuable than preseason.

    Last two years Tjack's stats:
    47/75 62% 564yds 4td 0int 0fumble

    Sage
    49/78 62% 624yds 4td 1int 1fumble
    So pretty much identical. Especially if you add in TJack's playoff game (why do people keep leaving that out?).

    Either way, it still tells me that neither one is starter material.
    I think those stats he posted were from preseason only.
    My bad, thanks for the correction.

    OK, pretty damn even. IDK - I won't cry regardless of which one gets the boot. Neither one of them is the future of the Vikings.
    Not sure why I corrected you, I think either way your point still stands.

    If you look at Jackson's stats, he can manage a game. But in today's NFL a game manager isn't going to cut it. Gone are the days of only run first/stop the run. You need more than a running game to win championships.

    All of the elite teams have good passing games.

    Sage seems to have the ability to drive the field and make some plays but I question his consistency and turnovers and decision making.
    2009 The Jets made the AFC championship game with the 31st ranked pass offense.
    2008 the Steelers won the superbowl with the 18th ranked pass offense. Baltimore made the AFC championship game with the 22nd ranked pass offense.
    2007 Giants won the superbowl with the 21st ranked pass offense. San Diego made the AFC championship game with the 26th ranked pass offense.
    I exaggerated by saying "every", but I'm sure you saw my point when digging for stats.

    Of the nearly 100 teams of the past 3 years you were able to find 4 teams and some of them I would argue were not elite simply because they made it far into the playoffs one season.

    4% of teams with mediocre passing games made it deep in the playoffs in the past 3 years, 1 terrible passing game (09 'Jets) and they didn't make the big dance (largely due to their inability to pass the ball in the championship game). Yippie.

    Passing games are necessary.
    2 of the last 3 superbowl winners had below average passing attacks. 3 out of the last 5.
    Obviously it helps to have a good passing game. But it's still not as important as having a good defense.
    They may have had slightly below average passing rankings, but they had more than game managers at QB. Something of which TJack is not. Neither Eli or Ben are game managers.

    It's hard to compare QBs because Jackson hasn't yet convinced the coachign staff he's good enough to start for a full season. To date, Jackson has never broken the 2000 yard mark in a season.

    Giants SB Year: Eli had over 3200 yards passing and 21 TDs, 10 INTs (I'll give you average here)

    Steelers SB Year: Ben had over 3150 yards passing and 32 Tds, 11 INTS

    Those numbers look better than average to me. What were you using for your passing stat that placed the team below average? I'd like to know how many teams had more than 32 passing TDs in 2007.
    just went by regular season pass yards(nfl.com default for team passing)
    Steelers won in 08. 19pass TD 15int.
    Giants in 07. 23td 20int

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