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  1. #21
    mountainviking's Avatar
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    Re: Sacks given up by position

    Yeah, I'm not buying those stats all the way either...most come off blitzes, who gets the extra guy?
    What about our FB and RBs?
    TE?
    Seems to me, the blame is often not on one alone, but shared.


    And yeah, it does involve the QB and WR play too!
    While I think who starts at C might be the biggest question of the off season, the biggest need might be one more playmaker at WR...somebody who can get open regularly and make D's sorry for stacking the box with his YAC.

    Sometimes, our play design/route running looks good and inventive, others, it appears we're still on page 2 of a 200 page playbook... ???
    Control the line, control the time, and give your D a chance to shine!!

    "Balance it on end and thats the third side of the coin!!" -wookiefoot

  2. #22
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Re: Sacks given up by position

    "ultravikingfan" wrote:
    Hutch needs to go.

    Or a better C to help him and Herrera out......(Bwahhhahahahahahahah
    ;D)

    Still a nice find with respect to data by Tad.
    Love this kindof stuff......
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  3. #23
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Sacks given up by position

    "marstc09" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:
    [size=10pt]Hey Marrdro![/size] Are you reading this!

    [size=13pt]12.
    Matt Birk only 2.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
    [/size]

    Let me spell it out for you & your cohorts who ride the Birk sux train.

    Birk has given up the least amount of sacks of any linemen on the team by at least a factor of almost 3

    Birk: .125 per game

    McK: .333 per game

    Cook: .429 per game

    Hutch: .438 per game

    Herr: .469 per game
    This may come as a surprise but I am going to come to Marrdro defense here. What do these stats really mean? Do they account for LBs coming in or Ss coming in? I know that might be someone elses job but it could also be Birks job to help. Regardless Birk did a great job and I hope he comes back. My problem with Cook is the penalties. Also just because they guy never had sacks given up, does not mean that he did not allow pressure on the QB.

    Thanks for the link BTW. Always wanted to see this.
    Doesn't suprise me.
    What suprises me is how many people misread the data in a lame attempt to validate thier belief that Matt just didn't play well last year...... ;D
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  4. #24
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Sacks given up by position

    "Mr" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:
    [size=10pt]Hey Marrdro![/size] Are you reading this!

    [size=13pt]12.
    Matt Birk only 2.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
    [/size]

    Let me spell it out for you & your cohorts who ride the Birk sux train.

    Birk has given up the least amount of sacks of any linemen on the team by at least a factor of almost 3

    Birk: .125 per game

    McK: .333 per game

    Cook: .429 per game

    Hutch: .438 per game

    Herr: .469 per game
    Birk better give up the least sacks.

    I bet if you do this for every team in the NFL the vast majority will have the fewest sacks allowed by the center, maybe all 32. How many 0 technique DTs did we play against this year? How many of those guys are known for their pass rush ability?

    I think McKinnie, as a left tackle, giving up the second most on the team is the most impressive part of this list.
    Tads data/link validates that assumption my friend.
    C's across the board were the least tagged as giving up a sack.


    What would be interesting to see is some amplyfying data on how the sacks were achieved......

    Straight up Bull Rush
    Stunt
    Delayed Blitz (By Gap)
    etc.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  5. #25
    V4L's Avatar
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    Re: Sacks given up by position

    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "ultravikingfan" wrote:
    Hutch needs to go.

    Or a better C to help him and Herrera out......(Bwahhhahahahahahahah
    ;D)

    Still a nice find with respect to data by Tad.
    Love this kindof stuff......

    He's gotta be doing a decent job if we are willing to keep him around

  6. #26
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    Re: Sacks given up by position

    "V4L" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "ultravikingfan" wrote:
    Hutch needs to go.

    Or a better C to help him and Herrera out......(Bwahhhahahahahahahah
    ;D)

    Still a nice find with respect to data by Tad.
    Love this kindof stuff......

    He's gotta be doing a decent job if we are willing to keep him around
    See: Cook, Jackson, Rice, Allison, Wade

  7. #27
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Sacks given up by position

    "V4L" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "ultravikingfan" wrote:
    Hutch needs to go.

    Or a better C to help him and Herrera out......(Bwahhhahahahahahahah
    ;D)

    Still a nice find with respect to data by Tad.
    Love this kindof stuff......

    He's gotta be doing a decent job if we are willing to keep him around
    I hear ya, however, I have been pondering the nature of the offer based on the words from his agent......"An offer that didn't insult us".

    My take on that is the staff has elected to go with someone else as the starter and he was offered a contract of backup value with incentives that could reach starter money if he had to step back in.

    I could be wrong in my ponderings, however, if that is in fact the case, props to Ricky and Bryzchiepski for making a deal like that and props to Matt for accepting it.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  8. #28
    V4L's Avatar
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    Re: Sacks given up by position

    "i_bleed_purple" wrote:
    "V4L" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "ultravikingfan" wrote:
    Hutch needs to go.

    Or a better C to help him and Herrera out......(Bwahhhahahahahahahah
    ;D)

    Still a nice find with respect to data by Tad.
    Love this kindof stuff......

    He's gotta be doing a decent job if we are willing to keep him around
    See: Cook, Jackson, Rice, Allison, Wade

    Since were were they FAs?

    Weren't Cook Jackson Rice and Allison all benched this year?

    I never saw Birk benched for Sullivan


  9. #29
    V4L's Avatar
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    Re: Sacks given up by position

    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "V4L" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "ultravikingfan" wrote:
    Hutch needs to go.

    Or a better C to help him and Herrera out......(Bwahhhahahahahahahah
    ;D)

    Still a nice find with respect to data by Tad.
    Love this kindof stuff......

    He's gotta be doing a decent job if we are willing to keep him around
    I hear ya, however, I have been pondering the nature of the offer based on the words from his agent......"An offer that didn't insult us".

    My take on that is the staff has elected to go with someone else as the starter and he was offered a contract of backup value with incentives that could reach starter money if he had to step back in.

    I could be wrong in my ponderings, however, if that is in fact the case, props to Ricky and Bryzchiepski for making a deal like that and props to Matt for accepting it.
    It would be wise to offer an incentive based contract

    If he doesn't take it move on

    He isn't what he was.. Still a very capable starting center

  10. #30
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    Re: Sacks given up by position

    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:
    [size=10pt]Hey Marrdro![/size] Are you reading this!

    [size=13pt]12.
    Matt Birk only 2.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
    [/size]

    Let me spell it out for you & your cohorts who ride the Birk sux train.

    Birk has given up the least amount of sacks of any linemen on the team by at least a factor of almost 3

    Birk: .125 per game

    McK: .333 per game

    Cook: .429 per game

    Hutch: .438 per game

    Herr: .469 per game
    You need to back your train up and take a look at it for what it really is.......A huge number of sacks up the middle.
    When one looks at how things line up.............





    RDE



    DT



    DT


    LDE




    LT





    LG

    C

    RG

    RDE

    ............and how sacks are attributed (player that makes the sack), it is no wonder that our C, as with all the C on the list have a low number.

    1. Olin Kreutz (Bears) 0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
    1. Todd McClure (Falcons) 0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
    1. Chris Myers (Texans) 0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
    1. Kevin Mawae (Titans) 0 sacks allowed (15 starts) *PRO-BOWL*
    1. Ryan Kalil (Panthers) 0 sacks allowed (12 starts)
    6. Brad Meester (Jags) 0.25 sacks allowed (10 starts)
    7. Lyle Sendlein (Cardinals) 0.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
    8. Duke Preston (Bills) 0.75 sacks allowed (11 starts)
    9. Casey Wiegmann (Broncos) 1.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
    9. Jeff Faine (Bucs) 1.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
    9. Jonathan Goodwin (Saints) 1.0 sacks allowed (13 starts)
    12. Nick Mangold (Jets) 2.0 sacks allowed (16 starts) *PRO-BOWL*
    12. Andre Gurode (Cowboys) 2.0 sacks allowed (16 starts) *PRO-BOWL*
    12. Shaun O?Hara (Giants) 2.0 sacks allowed (16 starts) *PRO-BOWL*
    12. Matt Birk (Vikings) 2.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
    12. Jeff Saturday (Colts) 2.0 sacks allowed (12 starts)
    12. Dominic Raiola (Lions) 2.0 sacks allowed (12 starts)
    12. Nick Leckey (Rams) 2.0 sacks allowed (10 starts)
    19. Jason Brown (Ravens) 2.25 sacks allowed (16 starts)
    19. Jamaal Jackson (Eagles) 2.25 sacks allowed (16 starts)
    21. Hank Fraley (Browns) 2.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
    21. Nick Hardwick (Chargers) 2.5 sacks allowed (13 starts)
    21. Jake Grove (Raiders) 2.5 sacks allowed (12 starts)
    21. Chris Spencer (Seahawks) 2.5 sacks allowed (11 starts)
    25. Rudy Niswanger (Chiefs) 3.5 sacks allowed (15 starts)
    25. Scott Wells (Packers) 3.5 sacks allowed (13 starts)
    27. Eric Heitmann (49ers) 4.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
    27. Eric Ghaiciuc (Bengals) 4.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
    29. Samson Satele (Dolphins) 4.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
    29. Dan Koppen (Pats) 4.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
    31. Casey Rabach (Redskins) 5.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
    32. Justin Harwig (Steelers) 6.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)

    Can't believe anyone would try to use this as a means to prove our C doesn't have issues......
    My guess is that the statistics taken on a C giving up a stack are flawed anyway.
    The sack given up by a C is more difficult to discern than a sack given up by a tackle.
    The 'stat guy' that records this is not privy to the o-line assignments on a zone scheme based on the play, so, it only makes sense that some sacks are debited to the wrong lineman.
    The only way to use these statistics in a logical sense is to use the number of sacks given up by the o-line as a whole.
    I mean, come on, when you are playing C it is more difficult to give up a sack than when you play G or T, you are surrounded by 600+lbs of beef on either side of you.
    Even if you make the assumption that the statistics are valid, then, how does 2 sacks in 16 starts make you think that you have reason to say that Birk has issues.
    That makes no sense.

    Now, if you want to look at some of the blocking assignments on a straight ahead run, I saw a few times where he didn't get off his first block quickly enough to block downfield (either that or AD was gunning it too fast).
    I suffer from the same lack of knowledge regarding their assignments as the hack that keeps those stats, so, it has to be taken lightly.


    Overall, he is still one of the best Cs in the game, even if he is in the denouement of his career.
    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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