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  1. #21
    Minniman's Avatar
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    Why pick on Toby Gerhart? The Vikings offensive line blocks poorly for Adrian Peterson, and Peterson gets yards where many backs cannot. Gerhart is capable enough if the blocks are there. He is no AD, but we may be asking too much to think Gerhart will be. That stated, the second best running back the Vikings have is Percy Harvin.

    If the Vikings would actually run a Bill Walsh style WCO with both Gerhart and Peterson in the game as weapons, I suspect we would see better results for both Gerhart and Peterson. Gerhart would make a pretty good Tom Rathman type player. Then again, the Vikings backs and TE's are woeful blockers, so one has to ask if it would make any difference if the coaching stays the same.

    As far as running backs are concerned, I am still PO'd that the Vikings drafted Ciatrick Fason over Darren Sproles. The Vikings would likely have let Sproles go in free agency anyway, but the memory of watching Rodgers, Barber, and then Sproles not get drafted by the Vikings in 2005 still upsets me. Troy Williamson? Dustin Fox? Ciatrick Fason? All three were reaches on my board, and Erasmus James had been injured in college. When Rodgers went to the arch-rival Packers, I was livid. Over the next few years I had hoped that I was wrong about him. It is too bad I wasn't wrong about him, or Sproles, or a bunch of offensive linemen that fell into the Vikings drafting slot only to have the Vikings braintrust draft another stiff.

    The Packers are where they are because they draft well, are coached well, and know that the offensive line and DB's are worth more than they are given credit for in the NFL. The Vikings have neglected both areas, and they have paid the price. The Packers also got lucky enough to have a Hall of Fame quarterback show a young quarterback how to play in the NFL, but that was after they were smart enough to know that that young player was good enough to be drafted even though they already had a star player at that position.

    The loss to the Raiders was more than the game day preparation. It was more than the gameplan drawn up on Monday. It is a culmination of mistake the Vikings have made over several years, and there is not much the Vikings can do in the short run to change it. They cannot redraft or resign players missed. They cannot change out coaches at this point in the season. They cannot bring in a young quarterback ready for the NFL, an offensive line to block for him, and receivers to catch passes from him.

  2. #22
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    It wasnt my intention to say Gerhart is a bad player, but he came at a pretty big price in my eyes and he hasnt proven enough to warant that and if its because blocking is poor, maybe the front office should have used the pick on an offensive lineman instead..

    Runningbacks can be found anywhere at this point, im sure that if we plugged a guy like my boy Caleb King of the PS he would produce just as much as Toby is doing right now and he was an undrafted free agent..

    We have invested our picks is wrong players and wrong position these past few years and thats why we are losing right now.


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  3. #23
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    I actually have no grudge with Gerhardt. I think he's a tough runner who plays a solid game.

    He's no Peterson, but then no one is.

    That said, I like Toby in the game, but would like to see more 2-back combo's versus the "Either or" style our brain trust runs...

    Caine

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by skum View Post
    We would have won today had Adrian played 4 quarters.. I think thats pretty safe to say..
    I don't think it's safe to say that at all & disagree with it.

    Oakland scored 10 points off of Ponder's interceptions, another 7 after Booker fumbled a KO return and another 7 after Kluwe/Longwell botched the FG try.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  5. #25
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    Same old, Same old.... The secondary, linebackers, o-line, d-line, injuries, rookie QB, turnovers, receivers, coaching, second half adjustments... What it really comes down to is, we are not that good. Plain and simple.

  6. #26
    Minniman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skum View Post
    It wasnt my intention to say Gerhart is a bad player, but he came at a pretty big price in my eyes and he hasnt proven enough to warant that and if its because blocking is poor, maybe the front office should have used the pick on an offensive lineman instead..

    Runningbacks can be found anywhere at this point, im sure that if we plugged a guy like my boy Caleb King of the PS he would produce just as much as Toby is doing right now and he was an undrafted free agent..

    We have invested our picks is wrong players and wrong position these past few years and thats why we are losing right now.
    I agree. Paying a third rounder to move up in the second round to draft Gerhart was madness. Paying to move up for Jackson was not a great move. Paying a third round with no conditions pick for Moss was foolery.

    The first round picks get all the attention, and late round sleepers get some press, but great teams are often built in the second and third rounds. Those picks have much more value than the Vikings have given them. The Vikings personnel guys refuse to let sleepers sleep until later rounds or even move up for reaches because the player was overvalued on the Vikings' board.

    The Vikings traded up for Gerhart, who would likely have been there later. The Packers traded into the first round to pick up Clay Matthews, and the Lions traded up to pick up Jahvid Best. Both players had fallen, and were good value, whereas Gerhart was not.

    The Vikings did get draft value in 2009 with Harvin and Loadholt, but they have made strange moves in other drafts including a trade that allowed a division rival, Detroit, to draft into the first round to pick up Best.

  7. #27
    Minniman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skum View Post
    We have invested our picks is wrong players and wrong position these past few years and thats why we are losing right now.
    Consider this, Jared Veldheer, the OT that shut down Jared Allen and has only given up two sacks this season, was drafted by the Raiders in round three. If the Vikings had stayed put, they could have drafted Veldheer and may have had Gerhart still on the board in round three or would have been able to use less valuable picks to move up for him if they still wanted to.

    Of course, the draft is a crapshoot, and the Raiders got great value with Veldheer, but it shows that one team did their homework and the other did not.

    Recall that the Vikings had already lost out on the players that they thought would fall to them in the first round and had moved out of that round because they failed to make a move early on. They were played like a bad poker player trying to get back into the game by making the move for Gerhart. Drafting Gerhart some place in the draft wasn't a bad move, but giving up so much for him was.

    With Veldheer, the Vikings also failed to see that McKinnie was not a great player, so it is unlikely they would have drafted Veldheer anyway - no matter how he had been graded. The Vikings have done far too much drafting for position rather than drafting the best player available. In the long run, that is a losing formula.

    As I stated above, the Raiders game was, in some part, lost because of those draft moves two years ago.
    Last edited by Minniman; 11-21-2011 at 10:06 AM.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_bleed_purple View Post
    Two end-arounds to Harvin in a row?
    I'll take "Things that piss me off when announcers say them" for $800, Alex.

    Dear God, the next time I hear an announcer call an end-around a "reverse" I'm going to pop a vein in my forehead.

    =Z=

    Thanks to Josdin for the awesome sig!

  9. #29
    Minniman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus View Post
    I'll take "Things that piss me off when announcers say them" for $800, Alex.

    Dear God, the next time I hear an announcer call an end-around a "reverse" I'm going to pop a vein in my forehead.
    I agree.

    Some of the announcers never played, coached, or really know the game as much as they pretend they do. For former players or coaches, there is no excuse.

  10. #30
    smegmavike is offline Coordinator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minniman View Post
    Consider this, Jared Veldheer, the OT that shut down Jared Allen and has only given up two sacks this season, was drafted by the Raiders in round three. If the Vikings had stayed put, they could have drafted Veldheer and may have had Gerhart still on the board in round three or would have been able to use less valuable picks to move up for him if they still wanted to.

    Of course, the draft is a crapshoot, and the Raiders got great value with Veldheer, but it shows that one team did their homework and the other did not.

    Recall that the Vikings had already lost out on the players that they thought would fall to them in the first round and had moved out of that round because they failed to make a move early on. They were played like a bad poker player trying to get back into the game by making the move for Gerhart. Drafting Gerhart some place in the draft wasn't a bad move, but giving up so much for him was.

    With Veldheer, the Vikings also failed to see that McKinnie was not a great player, so it is unlikely they would have drafted Veldheer anyway - no matter how he had been graded. The Vikings have done far too much drafting for position rather than drafting the best player available. In the long run, that is a losing formula.

    As I stated above, the Raiders game was, in some part, lost because of those draft moves two years ago.
    Great post. Not exactly a ringing endorsement for Spielman who should have exited along with Childress.

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