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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by midgensa View Post
    A long time since we have had average QB play? A long time since we got a 81.75 rating? Hell, you are predicting a whole 77.71 rating. Hardly very different.

    Not like we are predicting big numbers.

    I would say we had better play from Culpepper in 2004, Johnson in 2005, Frerotte and Jackson in 2008 and (obviously) Favre in 2009. I guess maybe you see those as a long time ago. But even if you got back to Culpepper, it was just 8 seasons ago.

    I think these numbers are very realistic if he starts 14-16 games. As they are pretty similar to yours just prorated out.
    You don't think 8 seasons and 5-6 different Qbs is a long time? 8 seasons?
    I think 3000 yards is a magic number for a QB. If you can get pass that 3000 yard mark, you are having an ok season. Anything less than 3000 yards is a bad season.

    Also I never said he was going to have a disaster of a season, I said he would be plagued by injuries and will miss games or be knocked out of others.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    You don't think 8 seasons and 5-6 different Qbs is a long time? 8 seasons?
    I think 3000 yards is a magic number for a QB. If you can get pass that 3000 yard mark, you are having an ok season. Anything less than 3000 yards is a bad season.

    Also I never said he was going to have a disaster of a season, I said he would be plagued by injuries and will miss games or be knocked out of others.
    Then how many bad seasons did Vick have before he got put away? (Hint: All of them)
    Weren't you his #1 supporter then?

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_bleed_purple View Post
    Then how many bad seasons did Vick have before he got put away? (Hint: All of them)
    Weren't you his #1 supporter then?
    I am... and I believe he came back and got tossed into discussion for league MVP. I don't get what you are trying to prove.
    You are trying to compare a rushing QB like Vick's passing figures? In his 2nd season Vick threw for 2900 yds AND rushed for 777.
    You aren't going to get a rushing QB (not a mobile QB) to throw for 5000 yards and rush for 750. It doesn't work like that. Some of the rushing yards and attempts take yards and attempts away from the passing game. It would be better to combine those yards and take away approx 200 (average for a modern QB) for a complete picture.

    Notice as his rushing attempts have gone down the passing numbers have gone up. What this has to do with Ponder, I don't know but I feel like arguing.

  4. #24
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    [QUOTE=kevoncox;1125571]
    You aren't going to get a rushing QB (not a mobile QB) to throw for 5000 yards and rush for 750. It doesn't work like that. Some of the rushing yards and attempts take yards and attempts away from the passing game. It would be better to combine those yards and take away approx 200 (average for a modern QB) for a complete picture. /QUOTE]

    Ah, right. Rushing QB's can't have impressive passing stats AND rushing stats:

    2002: 3853 pass yards, 609 rush yards.
    2004: 4717 pass yards, 406 rush yards.

    League MVP discussion is a joke. All it means is you stood out. The reason Vick stood out is because he had a piss-poor career statwise as a QP, and came back under special circumstances to have a decent season. Not even great, but decent.

    Point is, prior to going to Jail, he hasn't had a GOOD season as a QB. Last I checked, that's what he is, a QB. We don't have enough talent on this team that will allow Vick to take us to a superbowl. I'd still rather ride it out with Ponder and see what we have than go all-in for Vick and wind up with mid-round draft picks at best.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    I am... and I believe he came back and got tossed into discussion for league MVP. I don't get what you are trying to prove.
    You are trying to compare a rushing QB like Vick's passing figures? In his 2nd season Vick threw for 2900 yds AND rushed for 777.
    You aren't going to get a rushing QB (not a mobile QB) to throw for 5000 yards and rush for 750. It doesn't work like that. Some of the rushing yards and attempts take yards and attempts away from the passing game. It would be better to combine those yards and take away approx 200 (average for a modern QB) for a complete picture.

    Notice as his rushing attempts have gone down the passing numbers have gone up. What this has to do with Ponder, I don't know but I feel like arguing.
    made me laugh with that one.
    Why must you defend everything this FO does....to the point of making your self look like a yes man.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    If only there was some kind of body of evidence that the coaches could look at other than starts when they evaluate players... something like a practice or maybe some kind of Organized Team Activities... but alas - the one and only thing the coaching staff and fans have to look at is starts.

    Yes, if we saw multiple back to back starts by Webb, we would have a larger body of evidence to judge him. But he isn't going to get multiple back to back starts. If and when the time comes that he does get to start more often, I reserve the option to reevaluate my opinion of him.

    Ponder is going to see more starts - therefore the jury is still out on him IMHO.
    Sure there are things like practice, OTA's & minicamps to evaluate players, but performance in practice is not the same thing as performance in real games. Hell, even preseason game performances are dismissed. How many times have we heard here after a QB had a good preseason showing that it's been rebuffed by many here as "It's only preseason"? Troy Williamson had some good OTA's & TC's. How did that work out.

    But we aren't talking about coaches here, we are talking about fans who are calling players busts or nothing more than a viable back up after watching them play a handful of starts/regular season playing time. Fans who didn't watch those OTA's, those minicamps, those practices & at most watched a session or two of training camp practices.

    What we have here is some fans claiming one player to be a bust/back up after a small body of evidence, but claiming another player with similar play to need more time to evaluate, even though they saw a larger body of evidence.

    Yes, if we saw multiple back to back starts by Webb, we would have a larger body of evidence to judge him. But he isn't going to get multiple back to back starts. If and when the time comes that he does get to start more often, I reserve the option to reevaluate my opinion of him.

    Ponder is going to see more starts - therefore the jury is still out on him IMHO.
    So, since you've only seen a small body of evidence of Webb & you don't think he's going to get multiple back to back starts, you believe it's fair to label him nothing more than a viable backup, yet Ponder, whom you have seen a larger body of evidence of & will get more starts, you feel you can't label him until you see more playing time?

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by C Mac D View Post
    Interesting snipit:
    I've actually listened to both of them on the radio talk about things they missed in their first assessment of young Ponder.

    I for one loved what I saw with the exception of a few throws especially when you watched for other attributes like pocket awareness, getting rattled etc.

    I wonder what it would have been like if they would have just started him last year instead of wasting practice reps on D-nabb.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by midgensa View Post
    I think CMAC is pretty dead on. Though I was a little lower on the spectrum on things. I was leaning more toward 3,500 yards, 22 TDs, 15 INTs, 58% or so. But I am banking on him missing a couple of games.

    Either way ... I would not hate those numbers and would see them as reason to hope for a big jump in year 3.
    Hey Midg, why do you think he will miss games this year?

    I kindof think he will make it through the whole season.

    Most of the time last year he seemed to hold it way to long and assumption on my part is that was because he had only one target and that target didn't always get open which resulted in him taking hits he really shouldn't have had to.

    Granted, the OL will be better, but it will still be a work in progress, but I think wat will really help is (assumption on my part) Musgrove will move back to the use of more traditional player packages that will allow Ponder to have more options to throw to.

    That alone will help him when it comes to being able to stay healthy.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    +1

    What I can't believe is how some people can claim Webb is nothing more than backup material after 3 NFL starts, but claim Ponder needs more time before he can be judged.
    Comeon my friend.

    Even though I agree that it is way to soon to judge Webb, it is painfully obvious that young Webb is a runner rather than a thrower.

    Besides, he was projected to be a WR at the next level. Not alot of us would say that was to far off of a projection. The only ones that would disagree with that are the ones that are convinced that just because he won a game or two with his feet he is now a true QB the organization should bank the future (and practice time) on.

    Webb, will be a good backup QB who can squeak a win or two out for you if needed, but he wouldn't last a full year the way he plays either.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

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