Thread: Ponder

TJack might be an upgrade at this point.......

Originally Posted by NodakPaul

The only thing worse than Ponder's play lately is constant posts like this.

Saying thins like "He's not even back up material" shows that you really can't look at Ponder with any kind of objectivity. You seem to have a good grasp of football, but are so blinded by your decision to hate Ponder that you have managed to take confirmation bias to an art form.

I don't hate Ponder. I wanted him to succeed as well as most Viking fans. The facts don't lie with this guy. I have said many times that defenses after a few weeks into the season realized he just does not have the arm to beat them down the field. It's as simple as that. Point in fact is the Peterson throw down the sidelines with no one in his face and able to step up to throw and throws it 5 yards short.

Not defending Ponder here, I think we go in a different direction this offseason, but some of your comments are off base. He does have a quick throw and decent timing. He does move well outside of the pocket. Yes, the negatives outweigh the positives, especially right now, but you have gone to an extreme here.

Decent timing? When? His own coach says he needs to let the ball go on time. He has not for 6 weeks. I can count on one hand how many times he's taken a 3 , 5 or 7 step drop and decisively delivered the ball without hesitating. He never gets the ball out on time unless it's behind the line of scrimmage or 3 yards down. Harvin took that away from him. It was his bread and butter and his injury also exposed Ponder because he has no one else he can throw that bubble screen to. He may move well outside the pocket but he makes just as many mistakes there as he does in it. I've seen no pocket presence from him. No side step, no moving up in the pocket to avoid the rush. That is not learned, it's a sense , and he surely does not have that.

Yes, he does not have the best receiving corp BUT don't tell me receivers getting man coverage do not get open. A slant is always there in man coverage. I remember a guy named Favre that came to a team that had zero number one receivers. Rice was considered a BUST. Harvin was a rookie. Shaincoe was regarded as a backup tight end. The cupboard was pretty bare. He made Rice a number one and Harvin the rookie of the year. He made Shaincoe a very good catching tight end. He took an offense that was almost unwatchable the previous year and made them one of the best in the league. I hate to say this but Trav Jackson has more upside then Ponder. He actually has an NFL arm. You cannot cover up a weak arm, and teams are exploiting that arm. Defenses figured it out and took his dink and dunk away. After Harvin went down Ponder was undressed and will continue to be. I wish I was wrong but you'll see more of it on Sunday against the Bears. It will be interesting to see if the Bears go away from the shell defense they usually employ and copy what the WEAK Packer pass defense did to Ponder.

We can debate the quality of our current QB without resorting to being asshats. I think you will find that many of us are off from the Ponder bandwagon at this point - but posts like that are going to put people on the defensive.

I watch and tell it like I see it. I'm not some purple shades wearing Viking fan. To me it's obvious that Ponder will never cut it in the NFL as a starting qb, and the main reason is the arm. To be able to overcome that you have to have the intangibles to succeed in this league. He has shown none when it comes to pocket presence, making his reads, letting the ball go instead of overthinking every pass. Get ready for hell Sunday if he is not able to move the ball through the air. Him and Frasier both deserve to be booed off the field at this point. Frasier talks of not wanting to have a qb controversy. Ponder is so bad that the dummy does not realize he already has one.

In closing I truly believe that if this brass would have given Webb the opportuntiy to play substantial time he coul be a very good starter in the league. The players love him, he's a freak athletically, and would give teams fits with him and Peterson back there with some Harvin mixed in. Why they waste this guy is beyond me when we have had to suffer watching a guy obviously in over his head after defenses have EXPOSED HIM.

found this on Yahoo...Ponder engaged to a ESPN reporter..

as usual, after the wedding, there will be NO RECEPTION!!!

Originally Posted by 2beersTommy

found this on Yahoo...Ponder engaged to a ESPN reporter..

as usual, after the wedding, there will be NO RECEPTION!!!

Quote of the night


I was going to go with he handed off the ring cause we all know he didn't throw it to her.

Originally Posted by kingpin9995

I watch and tell it like I see it. I'm not some purple shades wearing Viking fan. To me it's obvious that Ponder will never cut it in the NFL as a starting qb, and the main reason is the arm. To be able to overcome that you have to have the intangibles to succeed in this league. He has shown none when it comes to pocket presence, making his reads, letting the ball go instead of overthinking every pass. Get ready for hell Sunday if he is not able to move the ball through the air. Him and Frasier both deserve to be booed off the field at this point. Frasier talks of not wanting to have a qb controversy. Ponder is so bad that the dummy does not realize he already has one.

In closing I truly believe that if this brass would have given Webb the opportuntiy to play substantial time he coul be a very good starter in the league. The players love him, he's a freak athletically, and would give teams fits with him and Peterson back there with some Harvin mixed in. Why they waste this guy is beyond me when we have had to suffer watching a guy obviously in over his head after defenses have EXPOSED HIM.

The all bold is a little over the top... but I guess that is just your m/o.

Anyway, despite the dickish tone, I don't disagree about Ponder at this point, although I don't think I would apply the "never" label yet. What I don't understand is what you have seen out of Webb to believe that he would be a very good starter in the NFL. Yes, he beat Philly and Washington. But it seems that a lot of memories are conveniently short. The only thing he did in the Philly game was break off a couple of runs. His passing in that game was very poor, just like it was against the Bears the week before and against the Lions the following week. Against Washington, he threw a total of 5 passes. And did just enough to screw us out of RGIII. Do you remember how he played in the Detroit game before, or the Chicago game after?

Webb has had 5 games in which he has seen significant playing time, and in none of those games have I seen anything that would make me think he would be a successful starter in the NFL. In fact, what I see is a playing style that is fairly easy to defend against, especially if coupled with a weak WR corps.

If you want to play the I-told-you-so card with Ponder, fine. With benefit of hindsight I concede the point. I can certainly admit that I was wrong. But any football knowledge credibility you gain from being right with Ponder is being pissed away with your love of Webb. That kind of stubborn commitment to a player who has done nothing to date shows that you ARE just another purple shades wearing Viking fan...

Originally Posted by NodakPaul

The all bold is a little over the top... but I guess that is just your m/o.

Anyway, despite the dickish tone, I don't disagree about Ponder at this point, although I don't think I would apply the "never" label yet. What I don't understand is what you have seen out of Webb to believe that he would be a very good starter in the NFL. Yes, he beat Philly and Washington. But it seems that a lot of memories are conveniently short. The only thing he did in the Philly game was break off a couple of runs. His passing in that game was very poor, just like it was against the Bears the week before and against the Lions the following week. Against Washington, he threw a total of 5 passes. And did just enough to screw us out of RGIII. Do you remember how he played in the Detroit game before, or the Chicago game after?

Webb has had 5 games in which he has seen significant playing time, and in none of those games have I seen anything that would make me think he would be a successful starter in the NFL. In fact, what I see is a playing style that is fairly easy to defend against, especially if coupled with a weak WR corps.

If you want to play the I-told-you-so card with Ponder, fine. With benefit of hindsight I concede the point. I can certainly admit that I was wrong. But any football knowledge credibility you gain from being right with Ponder is being pissed away with your love of Webb. That kind of stubborn commitment to a player who has done nothing to date shows that you ARE just another purple shades wearing Viking fan...

When someone wants to insert asshats quotes into their responses then it's gloves off. I never said I loved Webb. I said the guy has potential and is a freak of an athlete that is intriguing. I wonder if he was given the same amount of time Ponder has had at starting how much he would have progressed. Your points about Webb and the action he has been in are remember a guy that had very little action with live bullets. You critique his play after that small of a sample but give Ponder a pass that he needs more time. I suggest to you that if Webb had as many starts as Ponder has I think you see a guy that is quite a bit more effective than Ponder is at this point.
;
Lets face the facts. The Vikings were desperate for a quarterback. The Titans were desperate for a quarterback. The Jaquars were desperate for a quarterback. The class was WEAK and propped up only because of such desperation of the top teams drafting. The Titans took Locker, he'd done zilch. The Jags too Gabbert, he sucks. The Vikings reached on Ponder. The book on him out of college is exactly as stated almost verbatim. All three with the exception of Locker who has been hurt alot will fail. We as fans always want to believe our guy will succeed. It's hard for us to admit he just can't do it. Ponder has established just that, and defenses will continue to expose him for what he is. A reach, with an arm that cannot make NFL throws, and thin skinned with zero confidence in his ability to play in this league. And dems da facts ...

Spielman and Frazier are stuck with Ponder, so they have to ride him for the duration. I agree with NPaul, it's a bit too early to say Ponder will NEVER become a viable NFL QB. Not sure where the love for Webb is coming from- he just hasn't shown himself to a starting caliber QB. The point that's being misssed is the coaches see both these guys everyday and know the capabilities of both. You can argue that the coaching staff is dense, but they want to win and they are going to go with who they feel is the best option to do that. At this time I agree Ponder is our best option to win and while we have a glint of a chance to make the playoffs, he should play. But once we're eleminated, then Webb should have the opportunity to show what he can do.

Originally Posted by kingpin9995

When someone wants to insert asshats quotes into their responses then it's gloves off. I never said I loved Webb. I said the guy has potential and is a freak of an athlete that is intriguing. I wonder if he was given the same amount of time Ponder has had at starting how much he would have progressed. Your points about Webb and the action he has been in are remember a guy that had very little action with live bullets. You critique his play after that small of a sample but give Ponder a pass that he needs more time. I suggest to you that if Webb had as many starts as Ponder has I think you see a guy that is quite a bit more effective than Ponder is at this point.
;
Lets face the facts. The Vikings were desperate for a quarterback. The Titans were desperate for a quarterback. The Jaquars were desperate for a quarterback. The class was WEAK and propped up only because of such desperation of the top teams drafting. The Titans took Locker, he'd done zilch. The Jags too Gabbert, he sucks. The Vikings reached on Ponder. The book on him out of college is exactly as stated almost verbatim. All three with the exception of Locker who has been hurt alot will fail. We as fans always want to believe our guy will succeed. It's hard for us to admit he just can't do it. Ponder has established just that, and defenses will continue to expose him for what he is. A reach, with an arm that cannot make NFL throws, and thin skinned with zero confidence in his ability to play in this league. And dems da facts ...

lol - the asshats comments was directed at everyone who was starting to get chippy here... but I guess I can understand why you would think it was directed at you personally. I assure you it was not - it was directed at all of us, including me, who are likely to start getting into pissing contests and insult wars as this QB situation plays itself out. This isn't my first time through this rodeo...

I am not giving Ponder a pass at this point. I do feel that we have seen enough. Nothing short of brilliant play in these last four games could change my mind on that, but I do recognize that there is a chance.

I also don't give Webb a pass simply because we haven't seen what he can do. We also haven't see what MBT can do. Nor have we seen what Jared Allen could do if put in position of QB. Should we demand that they all get chances before forming an opinion? I don't think so. I think we can form opinions based on many things - game play being one of them. What little I have seen of Webb's game play has not impressed me. I could be wrong, but until we are eliminated from playoff contention, I don't think that he has earned the right to start just to see what happens.

To be fair, if the coaches DO decide to switch to Webb (hell, or MBT for that matter), I won't be crying into my beer either. It just isn't a decision I would make now if I was in a position to make those decisions.

I will agree with your last paragraph. One of the very big reasons that we took Ponder where we did was because we were just one of several teams that were desperate for a QB. That pushed their stock up considerably, and the Vikings were forced to take a QB higher than he was worth. You call it a reach, I call it necessity. There WERE better players on the board still, but we needed a QB, and we rolled the dice with Ponder. I don't think it was a bad decision at the time.

I do think it is time to admit that Ponder can't do it, and I am OK with that. I think it is time to go in a different direction. I have serious reservations about Webb being the direction we should go, and would rather position ourselves so we can go after Geno Smith or Matt Barkley.

Originally Posted by NodakPaul

I will agree with your last paragraph. One of the very big reasons that we took Ponder where we did was because we were just one of several teams that were desperate for a QB. That pushed their stock up considerably, and the Vikings were forced to take a QB higher than he was worth. You call it a reach, I call it necessity. There WERE better players on the board still, but we needed a QB, and we rolled the dice with Ponder. I don't think it was a bad decision at the time.

I do think it is time to admit that Ponder can't do it, and I am OK with that. I think it is time to go in a different direction. I have serious reservations about Webb being the direction we should go, and would rather position ourselves so we can go after Geno Smith or Matt Barkley.

That right there is a terrible way to draft.
The fact remains that every year there is a finite amount of nFL caliber players at all positions.
Good teams realize that by the 15th pick, the 5th best player at 1 particular position should not be off the board. We used to see it with DEs, then we started seeing it with OTs, now we are seeing it with QBs. At # 12 the top DTs, CBs, and players at other positions were there.

Nick Fairley
Robert Quinn
Mike Pouncey
Ryan Kerrigan
Nate Solder
Prince Amukamara
Adrian Clayborn
Jimmy Smith
Torrey Smith
Randall Cobb

Are all players that were available at the 12 pick or could have been traded back for. Under no circumstances do you reach for a QB that is not available. Wait until next season. Qb is the most important position in all of sports, you don't go QB shopping on a whim. A team should approach QB shopping like house hunting. I would rather sign a Vet on a 1 year deal than to draft the wrong guy and kill my franchise for 5 years. You don't role the dice on QBs. You trade up and get YOUR GUY! YOu jump up into the top 3 if have to to get your guy. Once you have that guy, the picks you spent getting him are moot. WRs are found in the 2nd or signed. Thinkabout it like this, because we paniced and wasted a pick on Pondexter, we missed out on 2 of the best QB prospects in the last 10 years. Its time to take a sure fire thing. Aren't you tired of the Booty's Jacksons and Ponders? The only reason we are talking about this guy is because we drafted him high. If he was Cardinals QB, we would be talking about how terrible he is and laughing at them. Stop defending a guy that is facing man to man coverage and is under throwing everyone. The under throw to AP has to be the worst i have ever seen. It hit the defender in the fucking back like it was a comeback route. The only reason I tolerated him was because he wasn't turning over the ball. Now he has developed a habit of doing it at the worst fucking time. If we cut him tomorrow, I would rejoice, because it means 2 less years of being in the hunt and seeing him shit it away. I don't care if he has a 100 QB rating the next 4 games. He is going to piss it away.
Ask yourself... how many Pro bowl Qb throw for consecutive sub 100 yard games. He is the reason Harvin wants a trade. He's the reason Harvin gets traded next season. Put money on it.

Originally Posted by kevoncox

That right there is a terrible way to draft.
The fact remains that every year there is a finite amount of nFL caliber players at all positions.
Good teams realize that by the 15th pick, the 5th best player at 1 particular position should not be off the board. We used to see it with DEs, then we started seeing it with OTs, now we are seeing it with QBs. At # 12 the top DTs, CBs, and players at other positions were there.

Nick Fairley
Robert Quinn
Mike Pouncey
Ryan Kerrigan
Nate Solder
Prince Amukamara
Adrian Clayborn
Jimmy Smith
Torrey Smith
Randall Cobb

Are all players that were available at the 12 pick or could have been traded back for. Under no circumstances do you reach for a QB that is not available. Wait until next season. Qb is the most important position in all of sports, you don't go QB shopping on a whim. A team should approach QB shopping like house hunting. I would rather sign a Vet on a 1 year deal than to draft the wrong guy and kill my franchise for 5 years. You don't role the dice on QBs. You trade up and get YOUR GUY!

The sad thing, is I think Ponder was, OUR GUY. We've done it for the past 10 years.

With the exception of the first round, and with the exception of this years draft, what we've done is:

Draft slow corners "Cover 2" (AKA, can't cover worth a crap) corners
Draft unimpressive linemen
Draft unimpressive safeties
Draft a slow, not very powerful powerback early
Trade out of the first round, and after all is said and done, wind up with LESS picks than you started with
Draft slow, mediocre linebackers.

I'd just like us in the late round take a gamble on the stupidly fast, but flawed DB, or the powerful, but dumb as a rock lineman. They at least have a chance of turning around. You can't make bad athletes into great ones, but you can fix character flaws.