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  1. #1
    singersp's Avatar
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    Plaza land becomes latest dispute

    Plaza land becomes latest dispute involving new Vikings stadium

    Plaza land becomes latest dispute involving new Vikings stadium | Star Tribune

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

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    Lol.

    I guess it was too practical to figure out what needed to be done to push this through before they decided against the last site and ramrodded the bill through the legislature.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Floyd View Post
    Lol.

    I guess it was too practical to figure out what needed to be done to push this through before they decided against the last site and ramrodded the bill through the legislature.
    That is what happens when the legislature waits until the very last moment (literally) to get off their asses and do anything.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

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    Oh please.

    I am not sure how much of a bleeding heart you are but it isn't the job of the government to do the legwork for the private sector and if the Vikings had their crap together and put together a decent proposal that was thought out, had things accounted for and made sense then it would have been a better and shorter process. If you can't understand that many legislators saw this for what it was and didn't feel compelled to throw money at a plan that was half baked at best I don't know what to say. I have been saying all along there was no incentive for the state to do anything as long as the lease they signed was in place and if the team wanted to expedite things it was up to them to do the heavy lifting.

    I am sure glad there aren't a majority of people with your attitude running the state who are that willing to just throw money at a weak proposal with no questions asked and no solid cost estimates for what it takes or even what it will look like before the bill is even passed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Floyd View Post
    Oh please.

    I am not sure how much of a bleeding heart you are but it isn't the job of the government to do the legwork for the private sector and if the Vikings had their crap together and put together a decent proposal that was thought out, had things accounted for and made sense then it would have been a better and shorter process. If you can't understand that many legislators saw this for what it was and didn't feel compelled to throw money at a plan that was half baked at best I don't know what to say. I have been saying all along there was no incentive for the state to do anything as long as the lease they signed was in place and if the team wanted to expedite things it was up to them to do the heavy lifting.

    I am sure glad there aren't a majority of people with your attitude running the state who are that willing to just throw money at a weak proposal with no questions asked and no solid cost estimates for what it takes or even what it will look like before the bill is even passed.
    The Vikings put together proposals year after year after year. The last time the Vikings did all the heavy lifting (including signing letters of intent to purchase land in Anoka County), the state f'ed it up.

    The State waited until the last possible year (last possible night in fact) to get their act together. There was plenty of time for the state AND the Vikings AND the City of Minneapolis to do the legwork TOGETHER, and only one of the three parties were interested in doing anything.

    You can try and attack me all you want, calling me a bleeding heart and accusing me of wanting to throw money at a weak plan. I guess when your argument consists of trying to blame the Vikings for everything, you have to resort to that.

    Want to know how a state legislature works with people "like me" in it? Right now North Dakota has a $1.6 BILLION surplus. Yes, it helps to have an energy and argicultural boom in the region, but it also helps that we don't sit on our ass and wait for the very last minute to do things. When you do that, you rarely get the best price on anything. Instead I think you should buy when the price is good, not when the demand forces you to.

    But please, continue to educate me on those legislatures who saw this "for what it is" and felt that there was "no incentive for the state to do anything as long as the lease was in place". Boy, it is a good thing they were there. I mean their decision to wait ended up with the state getting a great deal on a well planned out bill that has no finance issues, right? right??? Well done legislatures. It's no wonder that your state is broke.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

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    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    The Vikings put together proposals year after year after year. The last time the Vikings did all the heavy lifting (including signing letters of intent to purchase land in Anoka County), the state f'ed it up.
    No, they put together requests for money year after year and produced a few glossy renderings that had squat to do with waht the final product and final cost would end up at.

    The State waited until the last possible year (last possible night in fact) to get their act together. There was plenty of time for the state AND the Vikings AND the City of Minneapolis to do the legwork TOGETHER, and only one of the three parties were interested in doing anything.
    Have you ever gone to a government agency and worked on planning and financing a project? if so you would understand that they don't come running to you with the blueprints and an open checkbook.

    First thing that needs to be done is to have a plan, to calculate how much you can afford, what revenue the project will bring in and what the costs are. If there is land that needs to be purchased those agreements are to be made and finalized before everything is signed off on by the government.

    You can try and attack me all you want, calling me a bleeding heart and accusing me of wanting to throw money at a weak plan. I guess when your argument consists of trying to blame the Vikings for everything, you have to resort to that.
    I am merely calling a spade a spade. all along you have been pushing for a plan- any plan- as long as they got a new stadium regardless of whether it made sense or not. You have that record and it isn't something that I made up.

    And remember- you made a point of attacking me every single time I made a post stating that I didn't like the way they were putting together the proposal and always jump in on any post that says the team did a bad job of putting this thing together, which as time goes by is harder for anyone to dispute. But I fully expect you to blame the government for not doing everything for the team instead of asking them to do what every other entity that requests funding has to do.

    Want to know how a state legislature works with people "like me" in it? Right now North Dakota has a $1.6 BILLION surplus. Yes, it helps to have an energy and agricultural boom in the region, but it also helps that we don't sit on our ass and wait for the very last minute to do things. When you do that, you rarely get the best price on anything. Instead I think you should buy when the price is good, not when the demand forces you to.
    You just defeated your own argument. your state is not doing well because it is building stadiums for sports teams and taxing the bejeezus out of it's residents to pay for it. They have been fortunate to discover vast reserves of petroleum that they are extracting from the ground and selling all over the world. If building Pro Sports stadiums is such a great idea then a state like yours with a 1.6 billion surplus should be building lots of them so they make even more money right?

    But please, continue to educate me on those legislatures who saw this "for what it is" and felt that there was "no incentive for the state to do anything as long as the lease was in place". Boy, it is a good thing they were there. I mean their decision to wait ended up with the state getting a great deal on a well planned out bill that has no finance issues, right? right??? Well done legislatures. It's no wonder that your state is broke.
    Actually if it were up to them the team would have paid more or left. Notice the deals that have been done after the Vikings got theirs and see how much the governments are sticking into those stadiums. Then get back to me.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Floyd View Post
    Actually if it were up to them the team would have paid more or left. Notice the deals that have been done after the Vikings got theirs and see how much the governments are sticking into those stadiums. Then get back to me.
    Not going to bother with the other stuff, as you seem to have an axe to grind, and I would rather let it lie.

    But this last statement is the key here. This is exactly the attitude that was taken by Baltimore in '84, LA in '94, Cleveland in '96, and Houston in '00. The fact is, teams can and will move. Give a team a take it or leave it deal, and they will leave it. While you may have considered that a victory, few would have shared that view.

    Now let's bury the hatchet here because in the end we aren't that far apart in our views. We can both agree that this deal was not well planned out.

    I think a lot of these issues should have been worked out before a bill was introduced, and I think they could have been worked out had the team and state been at the negotiation table BEFORE the issue was forced into a vote. You think that the team should have put together a financing plan for the state, while I don't think that a private entity has any right in telling a state what taxes it should levy and how. I think this should have been a partnership from the beginning.

    And that is where the problem lies. There simply was no partnership between the Vikings and the state legislature throughout this process, and when it came down to crunch time, the legislature was forced to accept whatever bill was presented. The take it or leave power shifted to the Vikings instead of the state. This is a failure on the legislature in my opinion, because they were not working in the interest of their constituents. While I think that both the Vikings and the state could have done more to work together up to this point, the state literally did nothing.

    I am not saying that the Vikings are blameless in this. But I would hope by now that you can see that the state certainly isn't either.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    Want to know how a state legislature works with people "like me" in it? Right now North Dakota has a $1.6 BILLION surplus. Yes, it helps to have an energy and agricultural boom in the region, but it also helps that we don't sit on our ass and wait for the very last minute to do things. When you do that, you rarely get the best price on anything. Instead I think you should buy when the price is good, not when the demand forces you to.
    Please do not go there. The North Dakota economy has EVERYTHING to do with the oil. Do not worry, North Dakota will pay for it when the oil runs dry and the only thing left is polluted groundwater and ghost towns.

    While I agree that stadium issues needed to be addressed long ago, stating that North Dakotans are better on economic issues than Minnesotans is not a valid premise.
    Last edited by Minniman; 08-25-2013 at 06:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minniman View Post
    Please do not go there. The North Dakota economy has EVERYTHING to do with the oil. Do not worry, North Dakota will pay for it when the oil runs dry and the only thing left is polluted groundwater and ghost towns.

    While I agree that stadium issues needed to be addressed long ago, stating that North Dakotans are better on economic issues than Minnesotans is not a valid premise.
    Weird how we had a surplus BEFORE the current oil boom... And the technology explosion has been fueling the Fargo economy, which started with the Microsoft campus moving here (again before the oil boom)... Nice try though.

    Regardless, I never said that North Dakotans were better on economic issues. That was a direct response to a post that said something about how bad it would be if there were people "like me" in the legislature. I didn't go there, I merely responded.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  10. #10
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    Architectural renderings of the glassy sports facility depict the light-rail stop and a plaza on the property that Minneapolis Venture purchased from the city of Minneapolis in 2007, part of a $65 million deal that included five parking ramps.
    That is what happens with privatization of public assets. Somebody gets rich, and it is not often the public.

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