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  1. #101
    vikinggreg's Avatar
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    Re: Pick 6 on Jackson

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1105523
    Quote Originally Posted by "vikinggreg" #1105514
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1105509
    Quote Originally Posted by "kevoncox" #1105507
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1105501
    Quote Originally Posted by "NodakPaul" #1105497
    And you can have combinations of the above too... IE, a bad throw that is tipped by a WR like we saw on Saturday.
    I have been hoping someone else would point it out (for obvious reasons) but even though I've brought EJs role in the play several times, it hasn't come out.

    So I will ask point blank.....

    Do you think TJ's throw was behind (off back shoulder) because of were EJ was position at the point of the throw? If so, do you also think that a more experienced WR would have read EJ (presnap) and maybe adjusted his route?

    If that is not the case, then the other point of discussion that hasn't come up either is that if TJ put the ball were everyone on here thinks it should have been place, it would have hung young Tate out for a heck of a hit, again, based on were EJ was at the point of impact.
    Marr you hit it on the head. TJ positioned the ball off center to allow the WR to shield the ball from EJ. To say the pass was a bad pass is lunacy. It would eithe rbe picked off by EJ or get the guy killed like guys were getting killed all last season.
    Thanks my friend. I've been hinting all day but no one wanted to take the bait.

    Truth of the matter is, when I first saw the clip I questioned why TJ was hanging a reciever like that.

    After re-watching it again, I think he was anticipating that Tate saw what he saw and would have adjusted his stem or possibly even "Sat" in the opening, even though the opening was pretty small.

    I didn't want to come right out and say it cause everyone would say I'm making excuses. Just couldn't wait anymore. Almost time to go home.

    On a side note (edit), EJ made one hell of a read on the play IMHO. He not only dropped into the right zone, he was in the right position to make sure Tate didn't catch it and might have even got the pick if TJ wouldn't have placed the ball were he did.
    If he was expecting him to sit why did he throw it at head/shoulder level in the middle of the field the safer area to help Tate shield the ball and protect his own body would be waist or lower even giving tate more of an option to get his body around it or a muffed catch would hit the tuff and be a dead play
    See, that is a great counter discussion point that keeps the discussion going.

    My answer would be, if he would have caught it, he still could have made a counter move (spin) in the opposite direction. At that point the DB's would have come into play with respect to making the tackle, but we've seen it alot of times, were they are in pursuit and can't stop to counter that move.

    Again, all speculation, but still interesting to look at none-the-less.

    Edit - As a point of clarification. The word "Sit" doesn't mean to actually sit. It means to find the hole and get ready for a pass.
    I hear you and know the term, got Kirwan's book too B)

    As for the move and DB's Tate was Bracketed by LBers and a safety at that point I view the attempt to get him the ball as a possession catch just to move the LOS and to protect the ball and the team mate. Also a lower throw would have give the only option to move forward a step as the Vikings were to his left, right and behind him.

  2. #102
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    Re: Pick 6 on Jackson

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1105501
    Quote Originally Posted by "NodakPaul" #1105497
    And you can have combinations of the above too... IE, a bad throw that is tipped by a WR like we saw on Saturday.
    I have been hoping someone else would point it out (for obvious reasons) but even though I've brought EJs role in the play several times, it hasn't come out.

    So I will ask point blank.....

    Do you think TJ's throw was behind (off back shoulder) because of were EJ was position at the point of the throw? If so, do you also think that a more experienced WR would have read EJ (presnap) and maybe adjusted his route?

    If that is not the case, then the other point of discussion that hasn't come up either is that if TJ put the ball were everyone on here thinks it should have been place, it would have hung young Tate out for a heck of a hit, again, based on were EJ was at the point of impact.
    Yes, you can obviously have combinations as Paul pointed out, but that's not what was being argued by the TJ lovers. They are saying it wasn't a bad pass and it was all on Tate.

  3. #103
    V4L's Avatar
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    Re: Pick 6 on Jackson

    Tate came running from the right on a slant.

    He sat in the hole for a split second

    The throw has a little high and behind. But not terrible

    Had he still been running full speed id say that was a terrible throw by Jackson

    This particular play I say is just a not very well placed ball.. But EASILY catchable and any NFL WR should have got it

    I don't really think there is any more to add to this "discussion"

  4. #104
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    Re: Pick 6 on Jackson

    Quote Originally Posted by "NodakPaul" #1105410
    Quote Originally Posted by "singersp" #1105387
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1105379
    Quote Originally Posted by "singersp" #1105199
    Yep ... Exactly like the old days.

    Double standards.

    Tell me again how tipped passes were the fault of the receivers & not Favre's.
    Let it go my friend. All they will say is that your making excuses. Its their answer when they know they are wrong. :laugh:
    A quick check in 2009 threads showed how some people here kept re-iterating how Favre had 6 INT's (at the time) but 3 were tipped, ergo he had only thrown 3 bad picks.
    Sigh...

    OK, just to be clear, it IS possible that a bad throw is also a tipped pass. And it is possible for a good throw to also be tipped. Just because it is tipped by the WR, or just because the WR probably should have caught it does not make it a good pass.

    It is a FACT that at least some of those INTs by Favre were good throws and poor receptions. IDK about 3 out of 6, but I can specifically think of one. And I do remember some fairly long conversations where some people (specifically you and Marty) tried to do everything in their power to blame that pick (and probably others) completely on Favre.

    It is also a FACT that some of Favre's throws were bad, and some of those were tipped too. Tipping the ball did not change this.

    And finally it is a FACT that TJack's INT on Saturday was a poor throw that Tate didn't do him any favors with. But just because Tate can't catch herpes from a hooker doesn't change the fact that it was a poor throw by TJack.

    I think I can count on one hand the number of people who can't or refuse to understand this.
    There's nothing to sigh about. The ball was very catchable by the receiver & it wasn't. No one hear claimed it was a perfect throw. Not me, nor anyone else that I recall.

    And if you recall the picks by Favre, Marty & I argued that we & others should be blaming Favre based on THEIR similar blame on TJ for tipped balls that were picked.

    The fact that your statement reiterates that there were some fairly long conversations about it proves that there were people blaming the receivers & not Favre for those picks.

    The general consensus was this;

    If TJ throws a ball that's tipped & intercepted, fault Jackson.

    If Favre throws a ball that's tipped & intercepted, fault receiver.

    BTW The pick that your referring to that I recall totally blaming on the receiver & not Favre was the INT in the endzone a year ago.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  5. #105
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Pick 6 on Jackson

    Quote Originally Posted by "vikinggreg" #1105554
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1105523
    Quote Originally Posted by "vikinggreg" #1105514
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1105509
    Quote Originally Posted by "kevoncox" #1105507
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1105501
    Quote Originally Posted by "NodakPaul" #1105497
    And you can have combinations of the above too... IE, a bad throw that is tipped by a WR like we saw on Saturday.
    I have been hoping someone else would point it out (for obvious reasons) but even though I've brought EJs role in the play several times, it hasn't come out.

    So I will ask point blank.....

    Do you think TJ's throw was behind (off back shoulder) because of were EJ was position at the point of the throw? If so, do you also think that a more experienced WR would have read EJ (presnap) and maybe adjusted his route?

    If that is not the case, then the other point of discussion that hasn't come up either is that if TJ put the ball were everyone on here thinks it should have been place, it would have hung young Tate out for a heck of a hit, again, based on were EJ was at the point of impact.
    Marr you hit it on the head. TJ positioned the ball off center to allow the WR to shield the ball from EJ. To say the pass was a bad pass is lunacy. It would eithe rbe picked off by EJ or get the guy killed like guys were getting killed all last season.
    Thanks my friend. I've been hinting all day but no one wanted to take the bait.

    Truth of the matter is, when I first saw the clip I questioned why TJ was hanging a reciever like that.

    After re-watching it again, I think he was anticipating that Tate saw what he saw and would have adjusted his stem or possibly even "Sat" in the opening, even though the opening was pretty small.

    I didn't want to come right out and say it cause everyone would say I'm making excuses. Just couldn't wait anymore. Almost time to go home.

    On a side note (edit), EJ made one hell of a read on the play IMHO. He not only dropped into the right zone, he was in the right position to make sure Tate didn't catch it and might have even got the pick if TJ wouldn't have placed the ball were he did.
    If he was expecting him to sit why did he throw it at head/shoulder level in the middle of the field the safer area to help Tate shield the ball and protect his own body would be waist or lower even giving tate more of an option to get his body around it or a muffed catch would hit the tuff and be a dead play
    See, that is a great counter discussion point that keeps the discussion going.

    My answer would be, if he would have caught it, he still could have made a counter move (spin) in the opposite direction. At that point the DB's would have come into play with respect to making the tackle, but we've seen it alot of times, were they are in pursuit and can't stop to counter that move.

    Again, all speculation, but still interesting to look at none-the-less.

    Edit - As a point of clarification. The word "Sit" doesn't mean to actually sit. It means to find the hole and get ready for a pass.
    I hear you and know the term, got Kirwan's book too B)
    Good isn't it...... Love listening to those two on my way home at night.

    As for the move and DB's Tate was Bracketed by LBers and a safety at that point I view the attempt to get him the ball as a possession catch just to move the LOS and to protect the ball and the team mate. Also a lower throw would have give the only option to move forward a step as the Vikings were to his left, right and behind him.
    OK, I can see that. Re-air is on at midnight (EST). I will watch to see how it all played out with respect to down and distance but your assesment seems spot on.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  6. #106
    singersp's Avatar
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    Re: Pick 6 on Jackson

    Quote Originally Posted by "gamecocksbaseball31" #1105476
    I'm sure Whitehurst won't get his time in the upcoming preseason games because Jackson has been handed the starting job just like he has everywhere he's been even though he is unworthy of playing QB in the NFL.
    Ah, the ole conspiracy theory still abounds. LOL!

    Yep, the Vikings gave Sage a 3 yr. $9 mil contract to take a back seat to TJ no matter how well he played.

    Yep. It was all a huge facade just to give fans the appearance that they were actually bringing in legitimate competition for TJ, while the FO knew all along they would place him behind TJ on the depth chart.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  7. #107
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    Re: Pick 6 on Jackson

    Quote Originally Posted by "gamecocksbaseball31" #1105557
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1105501
    Quote Originally Posted by "NodakPaul" #1105497
    And you can have combinations of the above too... IE, a bad throw that is tipped by a WR like we saw on Saturday.
    I have been hoping someone else would point it out (for obvious reasons) but even though I've brought EJs role in the play several times, it hasn't come out.

    So I will ask point blank.....

    Do you think TJ's throw was behind (off back shoulder) because of were EJ was position at the point of the throw? If so, do you also think that a more experienced WR would have read EJ (presnap) and maybe adjusted his route?

    If that is not the case, then the other point of discussion that hasn't come up either is that if TJ put the ball were everyone on here thinks it should have been place, it would have hung young Tate out for a heck of a hit, again, based on were EJ was at the point of impact.
    Yes, you can obviously have combinations as Paul pointed out, but that's not what was being argued by the TJ lovers. They are saying it wasn't a bad pass and it was all on Tate.
    Why does it always resort back to TJ lovers/haters.

    Take alook at the nice discussion I had with our good friend Greg. No right, no wrong, just analyze the play for what it was looking at all the angles and possibilities.

    How about this approach.....

    a. What is the QB's first read/responsibility when he comes to the line? 90% of the time its the Mike.

    b. What is his second read/responsibility? 90% its the S as well as to listen to the C's line adjustments.

    c. What is the WR's read? 90% of the time is were his defender is as well as what the S is doing deep.

    Based on those reads adjustments are made. Is it to far out of the realm of possibility that the QB and WR were supposed to adjust were the route was to go?

    Truth of the matter is, all the WR's should have done that and the QB should have went to the best option.

    Again, all assumptions on my part, but still, a very good discussion nonetheless is did TJ and the WR make the right read (were they on the same page).

    Folding in those discussion points and them mixing in the great point Greg brougth up, it appears that TJ adjusted, the WR didn't and even though TJ adjusted he still threw the ball high.

    No love, no hate, no arguing, just good discussion my friend. Nothing more, nothing less.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  8. #108
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    Re: Pick 6 on Jackson

    Quote Originally Posted by "V4L" #1105563
    Tate came running from the right on a slant.

    He sat in the hole for a split second

    The throw has a little high and behind. But not terrible

    Had he still been running full speed id say that was a terrible throw by Jackson

    This particular play I say is just a not very well placed ball.. But EASILY catchable and any NFL WR should have got it

    I don't really think there is any more to add to this "discussion"
    It was still a good discussion for a few of us none the less. Especially like the inputs from our good friends Kevon and Greg.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  9. #109
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    Re: Pick 6 on Jackson

    Quote Originally Posted by "gamecocksbaseball31" #1105557
    Yes, you can obviously have combinations as Paul pointed out, but that's not what was being argued by the TJ lovers. They are saying it wasn't a bad pass and it was all on Tate.
    They are? Find me a quote where someone said it was a great pass. It has nothing to do with love for TJ.

    If Whitehurst throws that pass, it's still a very catchable ball & the receiver should have caught it.

    If Portis throws that pass, it's still a very catchable ball & the receiver should have caught it.

    If McNabb throws that pass, it's still a very catchable ball & the receiver should have caught it.

    If Ponder throws that pass, it's still a very catchable ball & the receiver should have caught it.

    If Webb throws that pass, it's still a very catchable ball & the receiver should have caught it.

    Get it yet!

    If Bomar throws that pass, I'm just impressed that he even threw a pass in a NFL game.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  10. #110
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    Re: Pick 6 on Jackson

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1105521
    Quote Originally Posted by "midgensa" #1105513
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1105509
    Quote Originally Posted by "kevoncox" #1105507
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1105501
    Quote Originally Posted by "NodakPaul" #1105497
    And you can have combinations of the above too... IE, a bad throw that is tipped by a WR like we saw on Saturday.
    I have been hoping someone else would point it out (for obvious reasons) but even though I've brought EJs role in the play several times, it hasn't come out.

    So I will ask point blank.....

    Do you think TJ's throw was behind (off back shoulder) because of were EJ was position at the point of the throw? If so, do you also think that a more experienced WR would have read EJ (presnap) and maybe adjusted his route?

    If that is not the case, then the other point of discussion that hasn't come up either is that if TJ put the ball were everyone on here thinks it should have been place, it would have hung young Tate out for a heck of a hit, again, based on were EJ was at the point of impact.
    Marr you hit it on the head. TJ positioned the ball off center to allow the WR to shield the ball from EJ. To say the pass was a bad pass is lunacy. It would eithe rbe picked off by EJ or get the guy killed like guys were getting killed all last season.
    Thanks my friend. I've been hinting all day but no one wanted to take the bait.

    Truth of the matter is, when I first saw the clip I questioned why TJ was hanging a reciever like that.

    After re-watching it again, I think he was anticipating that Tate saw what he saw and would have adjusted his stem or possibly even "Sat" in the opening, even though the opening was pretty small.

    I didn't want to come right out and say it cause everyone would say I'm making excuses. Just couldn't wait anymore. Almost time to go home.

    On a side note (edit), EJ made one hell of a read on the play IMHO. He not only dropped into the right zone, he was in the right position to make sure Tate didn't catch it and might have even got the pick if TJ wouldn't have placed the ball were he did.
    You can watch that play all day long and let T-Jack's father continue to talk in your ear. But throwing it to the other team is no excuse to "not hang your receiver out."

    By the way, it hardly would have been leaving him out to dry to throw on target. Not only was the ball not on target it was LATE. Should it have been caught? Probably. Should it have been on target? Probably. Should it have even been thrown? That is a fair question as well for a quarterback who has never been accurate with those kind of throws.

    It was a poor play by the receiver, no doubt. But to act in any way that Tarvaris had nothing to do with the result of this play is blind love of No. 7.
    It was simply a bad play, and the quarterback was at the epicenter of it. But we all know it does not matter around here. T-Jack will likely play four or five games before hitting the IR. He will likely have a rating in the area of 67-73 and will likely be throwing for somewhere in the area of 125 yards a game.

    And he will still be not getting a fair shake. I am shocked this crowd is not crying for Jamarcus Russell, Drew Henson, Tim Couch and Ryan Leaf to all get one more chance.
    Exactly why I refrained from saying it.

    Again, if that was a throw by Peyton, would you say the following:

    a. The WR and QB didn't read the play the same.
    b. The WR didn't adjust his stem.
    c. The QB threw it to that spot so he didn't hang his WR.
    d. The QB threw the a bad pass behind the reciever
    e. MLB read the play perfectly.

    In the end, it was a bad play but you can't say the QB handed the ball to the defense.

    One, or both (The WR and QB) read the play wrong if the throw was intended to hit the reciever in stride cause EJ did read it perfectly and would have killed Tate if he wouldn't have stopped to try to catch the ball thrown off his back shoulder.
    You forgot.

    f. The QB threw the ball into the spot where the receiver was supposed to be. Fault receiver (we've heard that one before to)

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

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