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  1. #61
    Dibbzz is offline Starter
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    I don't blame Harvin one bit. Not because I'm a big fan of "whiners", but because I think our team is headed in the wrong direction in almost every conceivable way.

    1: I believe our Owner is one of the most moronic in sports - and is allowing himself and his brothers to destroy our franchise through their continued meddling.

    2: I have serious doubts about the quality of our New GM - I am leaning heavily towards the "What the floop were they thinking!!!" camp.

    3: I do NOT believe our HC is worth a turd. That goes double for his staff selections.

    4: I do not have great confidence in our current starting QB.

    5: I do not believe we have the foundation to build a successful team, nor do I believe we are even remotely close to getting even to that point.

    If Harvin wants out, I can't blame him. I would too.

    Caine
    Out of curiosity, Caine, what is it about Frazier that you have against him? Is it scheme? Attitude? How he carries about himself? Personnel moves? I'm not disagreeing (nor agreeing) with your opinion I just am curious as to what you have against Frazier.

  2. #62
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    ConnecticutViking is offline Pro-Bowler
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    Pay the Whore! Pay the Whore and he will put out!

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmcdon00 View Post
    Contract is always the issue. There might be others, but I'm sure Percy is aware that any team that would trade for him would give him a new contract.
    Obviously he's not happy about making a fraction of what his talent would dictate.
    Sure contract plays a bit of a factor, but I don't think it's th emain concern.

    If Percy were being paid like a top-10 WR, he'd be fine. He's not.

    If Percy were being paid as-is, but on a top-10 team, he'd be fine. He's not

    If Percy were being paid as-is, but were on a mediocre team built around him he'd be fine. He's not.

    Fix one of those aspects, and I'm sure Percy will be a happy camper. Obviously I don't know the guy, but based on my impression I get from his work ethic and play, he's the kind of guy to work his ass of for his new contract, not whine and complain. However, being paid like shit on a shit team doesn't sit well with many players.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibbzz View Post
    Out of curiosity, Caine, what is it about Frazier that you have against him? Is it scheme? Attitude? How he carries about himself? Personnel moves? I'm not disagreeing (nor agreeing) with your opinion I just am curious as to what you have against Frazier.
    I can't speak for caine, but I bet it has to do with:

    His absolute lack of emotion. It's fine not to get riled up or super excited, I'd rather have a Fraizer than a Rex Ryan any day. However, he needs to start instilling some discipline and establishing himself as the undisputed leader. Last season the team quit on him. Good coaches can avoid that.

    His inability to hire acceptable assistants. Musgrave is a joke, Pugac is a joke, I actually like Singletary as LB coach, but nothing more, other than that, not really any good coaches on roster.

    His insistence on sticking with Ponder. Nothing wrong with giving your first round guy a shot, but to say he's the unquestioned starter, when his ability is very much questioned is just wrong. Give Webb a shot, You never know, maybe we have two elite talents and competition will bring out the best in both. But to say Ponder starts regardless of how Joe plays is ridiculous.

    He's not been able to get a core group of players together. Right now, if I were to count our top 6 young players to build around it would consist of:
    Peterson
    Harvin
    Greenway
    Rudolph
    Kalil
    Smith

    We only have 3 youngish players that I would consider "core" players. Rudolph is still a development guy, who should join that list. Kalil and Smith are absolute questionmarks, considering they've never played a down in the NFL yet.

    I'm actually a bit more optimistic for the next few years, as I feel IF we get 3-4 guys from this draft to be good reliable starters. Maybe add in that fast corner and one of our receivers, then we MIGHT finally have a good solid core of players.

    Unfortunately, it will be at the point where AD is on the downside of his career, and Allen/KW might be gone.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibbzz View Post
    Out of curiosity, Caine, what is it about Frazier that you have against him? Is it scheme? Attitude? How he carries about himself? Personnel moves? I'm not disagreeing (nor agreeing) with your opinion I just am curious as to what you have against Frazier.
    IBP had a pretty good list going. Personally, I don't give a rip about his "emotion" or lack thereof. I'm more interested in results. And taht's what I don't see.

    I see Frazier as a Wilf puppet coach. He was given the job because he doesn't have enough NFL clout to tell Zygi and his idiot brothers to sit in the owner's box and shut the floop up. That means that the Wilf brothers get to continue to pretend that they have a clue about how to build a winning franchise...despite not having a clue.

    Then, as IBP mentions, there are the staff selections. Musgrave? Really? Look at his coaching history.....it doesn't read like a biography of triumph. Here's a small taste: "Musgrave left to be the offensive coordinator for the Jacksonville Jaguars (200304), and was released from that position". But I could have looked past that had the guy brought in a credible scheme....instead I see a pathetic version of Chillers KAO.

    Then there's utilization of talent. No clue there. Part of the problem is that there IS no talent to use...especially at WR...but even when it's on the field, it's misused.

    On the QB scene, I don't know if Ponder will become a great NFL QB...but he didn't look like one LAST SEASON. Webb looked stronger. So, by all means, anoint Ponder. Who does that remind me of? Hmmm.....can you say "CHILLER"?

    See, I see Leslie as a placeholder coach. He doesn't have the clout to force anyone to do anything. That means Wilf gets to keep screwing around with making decisions he shouldn't, Spielman gets to keep ignoring the fact that we have no WR talent to speak of, and the team gets to continue to spiral downwards.

    The whole thing makes me sick.

    Caine

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    IBP had a pretty good list going. Personally, I don't give a rip about his "emotion" or lack thereof. I'm more interested in results. And taht's what I don't see.

    I see Frazier as a Wilf puppet coach. He was given the job because he doesn't have enough NFL clout to tell Zygi and his idiot brothers to sit in the owner's box and shut the floop up. That means that the Wilf brothers get to continue to pretend that they have a clue about how to build a winning franchise...despite not having a clue.

    Then, as IBP mentions, there are the staff selections. Musgrave? Really? Look at his coaching history.....it doesn't read like a biography of triumph. Here's a small taste: "Musgrave left to be the offensive coordinator for the Jacksonville Jaguars (200304), and was released from that position". But I could have looked past that had the guy brought in a credible scheme....instead I see a pathetic version of Chillers KAO.

    Then there's utilization of talent. No clue there. Part of the problem is that there IS no talent to use...especially at WR...but even when it's on the field, it's misused.

    On the QB scene, I don't know if Ponder will become a great NFL QB...but he didn't look like one LAST SEASON. Webb looked stronger. So, by all means, anoint Ponder. Who does that remind me of? Hmmm.....can you say "CHILLER"?

    See, I see Leslie as a placeholder coach. He doesn't have the clout to force anyone to do anything. That means Wilf gets to keep screwing around with making decisions he shouldn't, Spielman gets to keep ignoring the fact that we have no WR talent to speak of, and the team gets to continue to spiral downwards.

    The whole thing makes me sick.

    Caine
    I agree Frazier was hired as a placeholder coach who could easily be told what to do. I just hope he turns out to be a good head coach. Haven't seen it yet.
    I believe Musgrave was Spielmans choice as OC, not Leslies.
    As far as Ponder, I do not mind them naming him the starter. I just hope they keep him in there all season and find out if he has what it takes. I really do not want to see another round of QB yo-yo. If he doesn't show significant improvement this year, we know we have to go in another direction.
    Agree with the under utilization of talent so far.
    Why must you defend everything this FO does....to the point of making your self look like a yes man.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    When you're continually out performing your rookie contract, your team should pony up & recognize that & adjust your contract accordingly & not wait until the final year of contract. If they wait until the final year of a players contract, there isn't much incentive for a player to resign before reaching & testing the FA market. Especially if you're good. It could cost a team a lot more in the final year of a players contact to lock him up than it would if they lock him up earlier.

    Did the Vikings wait until the 6th year of AD's contract before locking him down? Nope, they locked him up after completing year 4 of a 6 year contract.
    Get the man a prize!

  8. #68
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    I feel like some of you guys are yelling, "The Sky is Falling, the Sky is Falling!"

    I just don't think Frazier and company have had much of a chance yet. No offseason last year with a new scheme, new coaches, rookie/late round developmental QBs playing in what I believe is the best division in football etc etc. And then we had nearly every CB on the roster get injured on top of that. I know, thats a lot of excuses, but its also all truth.

    I'm willing to give this regime one more year to see what level of progress is accomplished. The OL should be better, the secondary should be better (and healthier, I HOPE!) and our young QBs and their young weapons finally get a whole offseason, training camp etc to get their Poop-In-A-Group! We should see significant progress pretty much everywhere, and if our secondary can even play mediocre, our NFL sack leading front seven should be able to wreak some havoc and cause some turnovers.

    If we can get mediocre play in both sides of the passing game, our defense and running attack should win 6 or 8 games for us. On the other hand, IF we struggle in the same areas and end up with another top five pick, by all means, fire the whole fucking mess and start over.
    Control the line, control the time, and give your D a chance to shine!!

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  9. #69
    smegmavike is offline Coach
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainviking View Post
    I feel like some of you guys are yelling, "The Sky is Falling, the Sky is Falling!"

    I just don't think Frazier and company have had much of a chance yet. No offseason last year with a new scheme, new coaches, rookie/late round developmental QBs playing in what I believe is the best division in football etc etc. And then we had nearly every CB on the roster get injured on top of that. I know, thats a lot of excuses, but its also all truth.

    I'm willing to give this regime one more year to see what level of progress is accomplished. The OL should be better, the secondary should be better (and healthier, I HOPE!) and our young QBs and their young weapons finally get a whole offseason, training camp etc to get their Poop-In-A-Group! We should see significant progress pretty much everywhere, and if our secondary can even play mediocre, our NFL sack leading front seven should be able to wreak some havoc and cause some turnovers.

    If we can get mediocre play in both sides of the passing game, our defense and running attack should win 6 or 8 games for us. On the other hand, IF we struggle in the same areas and end up with another top five pick, by all means, fire the whole fucking mess and start over.
    I think the sky has already fallen!
    Reality is, the future is based on hope and a lot of ifs. The past performance carries a lot of excuses. I see those words in your post.
    From this point on most of us are trying to be optomistic that the organization is moving in the right direction and the team will improve,
    But optomism is tempered by a team that appears to be a long way away from competitive.
    Until the team actually starts winning again, I suspect pessimism will be a common theme on PP.O.
    From this point on, everything SHOUD improve.Until that happens, we will see a lot of suspected scapegoats as responsible.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    When you're continually out performing your rookie contract, your team should pony up & recognize that & adjust your contract accordingly & not wait until the final year of contract. If they wait until the final year of a players contract, there isn't much incentive for a player to resign before reaching & testing the FA market. Especially if you're good. It could cost a team a lot more in the final year of a players contact to lock him up than it would if they lock him up earlier.

    Did the Vikings wait until the 6th year of AD's contract before locking him down? Nope, they locked him up after completing year 4 of a 6 year contract.
    well going on figures AD had completed approx 66% of his contract whereas Harvin has only completed 60% of his contract. Harvin has played well but I don't consider that he has overperfomed to the extent that he deserves a contract extension earlier than Peterson did.
    Time spent annoying a Packer fan is never time wasted...


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