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Thread: Penalties

  1. #61
    Del Rio is offline Coordinator
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    Re: Penalties

    I'm just trying to understand this, because a lot of my life is consumed sitting around with other coaches looking at numbers. Figuring out why? Why did we have more penalties, why did he miss his block......

    I look at the Redskins game.

    Quarter 1 we had 2 penalties in 30 plays so one in every 15 plays

    Quarter 2 we had 5 penalties in 46 plays so one in every 9.6 plays


    I will work on the rest for shits and giggles but I am just not seeing this.
    If you promise to be smarter, I will promise to be nicer.

    My posts are worth 6 of yours.

  2. #62
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    Re: Penalties

    "Del" wrote:
    Have you calculated the number of plays that occured in the second quarter?

    And if you have, have you compared wether the penalties were offensive or defensive? Because if the majority of your second quarter penalties are offensive it doesn't matter how many plays the other team ran only you.

    Point being in statistics and mathmatics it may not be significant, in football it is very significant. Because it is never ok to do regardless of the number of plays ran.
    Are you implying the only penalties the Vikings committed were on their offensive players? i.e. no offsides, no PI, no defensive holding by DBs or LBs covering pass receivers?
    Or are you implying that the key concern is only on offensive penalties?

    And why are (penalty counts, or ratios of penalties-to-plays-run) very significant in football but not so in numerical analysis ?
    How would 'significance' of penalties be determined in football without counts or ratios ( other than lost opportunities to win )?

    What we also need to look at are mistakes which are not deemed to be 'penalties'.
    Examples are fumbles, dropped passes, and, perhaps, punters kicking a ball into the endzone rather than OB insider the 20 yd line.
    They should be added to penalties, with some appropriate weighting scheme, to get a better grasp of the issues that the Vikings coaches need to address in 2007.
    When we stop to think about it, most folks behavior isn't perplexing after all !

  3. #63
    Del Rio is offline Coordinator
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    Re: Penalties

    "Purplexing" wrote:
    "Del" wrote:
    Have you calculated the number of plays that occured in the second quarter?

    And if you have, have you compared wether the penalties were offensive or defensive? Because if the majority of your second quarter penalties are offensive it doesn't matter how many plays the other team ran only you.

    Point being in statistics and mathmatics it may not be significant, in football it is very significant. Because it is never ok to do regardless of the number of plays ran.
    Are you implying the only penalties the Vikings committed were on their offensive players? i.e. no offsides, no PI, no defensive holding by DBs or LBs covering pass receivers?

    Or are you implying that the key concern is only on offensive penalties?

    And why are (penalty counts, or ratios of penalties-to-plays-run) very significant in football but not so in numerical analysis ?
    How would 'significance' of penalties be determined in football without counts or ratios ( other than lost opportunities to win )?

    What we also need to look at are mistakes which are not deemed to be 'penalties'.
    Examples are fumbles, dropped passes, and, perhaps, punters kicking a ball into the endzone rather than OB insider the 20 yd line.
    They should be added to penalties, with some appropriate weighting scheme, to get a better grasp of the issues that the Vikings coaches need to address in 2007.
    No I am saying that if you want to look at numbers you are going to have to break it down into two sides. You are implying that there are more plays ran in the second quarter which equals out the disparity in total penalties.

    Well an offensive/defensive play doesnt effect a special teams penalty. An offensive play by the Rediskins doesn't effect an offensive penalty by us.

    If we have 5 offensive penalties in the second quarter and you divide by the total number of plays that is not an accurate assesment. You would need to find out the total number of plays our offense had because the plays they ran on offense would have no effect on our offensive penalties.

    It is significant in football because it effects the result of the game. You applying incomplete statistics to a 21 to 42 ratio is not significant. If I as a coach look at the sheet and see I average 2:1 penalties going into the half as opposed to the start of the game I need to address that weather it is my staff not keeping my players focused, fatigue, or what have you.

    You saying it is insignificant does not make it go away at the end of the day my team has made twice as many penalties in the 2nd quarter then the first and that is an issue.

    And from the looks of the way my work on counting just the total number of plays in each quarter is going, I think the point is moot.
    If you promise to be smarter, I will promise to be nicer.

    My posts are worth 6 of yours.

  4. #64
    josdin00's Avatar
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    Re: Penalties

    Just to throw more fuel on the fire.

    In the first two quarters, the split between offensive and defensive penalties (ignoring the special teams) is vitually identical. The offense had 61.1% and 61.3% of the penalties in the first two quarters, leaving the defense with 38.9% and 38.7%.

    In the second half, the splits were much closer. The offense had 47.8% (11/23) of the penalties in the 3rd, and the split was exactly 50/50 (11/22) in the 4th.

    Now, if someone has the numbers for how many plays we ran on either side of the ball for each quarter, we might have something to look at.

  5. #65
    Del Rio is offline Coordinator
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    Re: Penalties

    "josdin00" wrote:
    Just to throw more fuel on the fire.

    In the first two quarters, the split between offensive and defensive penalties (ignoring the special teams) is vitually identical. The offense had 61.1% and 61.3% of the penalties in the first two quarters, leaving the defense with 38.9% and 38.7%.

    In the second half, the splits were much closer. The offense had 47.8% (11/23) of the penalties in the 3rd, and the split was exactly 50/50 (11/22) in the 4th.

    Now, if someone has the numbers for how many plays we ran on either side of the ball for each quarter, we might have something to look at.
    I'm working on that right now using NFL.com
    If you promise to be smarter, I will promise to be nicer.

    My posts are worth 6 of yours.

  6. #66
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    Re: Penalties

    OK, I agree with DelRio on subdividing the penalties and plays into offensive, defensive and special teams groups, by quarter, and 'looking at' the result.


    However, subdividing 123 penalties two ways yields much lower numbers in each cell, yielding a reduction in the credibilty of (the data in each cell for) an analysis thereon.

    If you want to subdivide between O, D and ST penalties and plays, I argue against looking at those stats BY QTR.

    If you are concerned with qtrly penalties incurred, I would argue against subdividing that data into O, D and ST cells.

    I don't argue against anyone doing two separate analyses.... but I don't have the time to assemble those stats.

    I hope the Viking coaches are looking at the situations that resulted in penalties, and devise solutions to reduce penalties to(ward) the low end of the league stats.
    That is why the info on TYPE of penalty; e.g. false start, offsides, etc. and perpetrator; e.g. M.Johnson, K.Williams, etc. is more important than quarterly splits.
    When we stop to think about it, most folks behavior isn't perplexing after all !

  7. #67
    renovikesfan is offline Coordinator
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    Re: Penalties

    "josdin00" wrote:
    "renovikesfan" wrote:

    AWESOME work, josdin!!!
    Kudos for the work you must have put into this.
    If you don't mind...can I post this on a Vikings Email list I'm on?
    Sure, go ahead. I'd appreciate it if you'd include a link to the post, just in case anyone on that list doesn't know about this site yet.
    Thanks!!!
    Sure thing!



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