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  1. #41
    Del Rio Guest

    Re: Pat Williams back to leading D-line

    "whackthepack" wrote:
    Del I don't think I am one of your favorite people on PPO, and that is OK.

    I do like to argue about DT's with you, but I think it kinda bothers you and i do not mean to piss you off!

    I am not a head coach or a D coordinator but I do understand how the game is played, and I do respect your knowledge of the game!

    I do like to argue with you about it tho, and we just have different opinions on what a DT should do! It doesn't mean I don't understand what gap philosophy is, I am just not a huge fan of it.

    When Keith Millard was playing should he have been a gapper and taken away one of the most explosive defense players the Vikings have ever had, to fill a hole!

    The same with John Randall? He should have been a team guy and not gone after plays aggresively and let his teammates be the playmakers?
    I think you misunderstand me there is a progression all lineman go through.

    Whack your one of my favorite people on here. I like arguing with everyone, your one of my favorite.

  2. #42
    whackthepack is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Pat Williams back to leading D-line

    "Rastak" wrote:
    This was from espn and the football scientest......



    "Defensive linemen have historically been one of the most underrepresented positional groups from a statistical standpoint. Sure, they get credit for sacks, but there are many other contributions they make that they don't get credit for, especially in the running game. One of my goals in researching Scientific Football 2006 was to create a series of metrics to try to help remedy this situation.

    After compiling a season's worth of these metrics, it was clear there are a number of defensive linemen who don't get the credit they deserve. Below is a list of some of these underappreciated linemen, along with some comments about them from Scientific Football 2006.

    • Pat Williams, DT, Vikings: Williams led all defensive tackles in the number of times he defeated an offensive lineman's block. In fact, Williams' 44 defeated blocks were nine more than the second-place finisher in that category. There were games when Williams was simply unblockable, yet he still didn't make the Pro Bowl.



    Scientific Football 2006 can be ordered now from KC Joyner's website.Williams claimed that part of the reason he didn't make the Pro Bowl was due to an effort by some offensive linemen to keep him out, a voting conspiracy of sorts. Part of this may have been due to Williams' way of approaching the game. Williams says he hates all centers and guards and wants to destroy all of them.

    I don't know about a conspiracy, but I will say this: The person or persons who pick the Pro Bowl injury replacements could have selected Williams to replace the injured Rod Coleman. Instead they picked La'Roi Glover, who had one of the worst success percentages of any defensive tackle. It makes you wonder about the entire selection process.

    • Kendrick Clancy, DT, Cardinals: Clancy ranked first among defensive tackles in yards per attempt allowed. He was also second in success percentage and first in the SYPA (success percentage times yards per attempt) metric. With the Giants last season, Clancy also ranked second in the league in total run blocks defeated. He was like Williams in that there were games when he was simply unstoppable (including a game against Dallas, when Clancy single-handedly caused a fumble that the Giants returned for the eventual game-winning touchdown).

    • Grant Wistrom, DE, Seahawks and Michael Strahan, DE, Giants: Wistrom and Strahan certainly aren't undervalued defensive linemen, but they deserve to be included on this list because of their ranking in the metric called pursuit plays. Pursuit plays are plays when a defensive lineman either chases a play down from the back side or runs at least 5 yards downfield to make a tackle. Wistrom led all defensive linemen with 20 pursuit plays and Strahan finished second with 19. These two are seen as exceptional pass rushers, but this metric proves that they do a whole lot more.

    Albert Haynesworth
    Defensive Tackle
    Tennessee Titans

    Profile
    2005 SEASON STATISTICS
    Tot Ast Solo FF Sack Int
    52 36 16 1 3 0

    • Albert Haynesworth, DT, Titans: Haynesworth may have been the most disruptive defensive lineman in the league outside of Williams and Clancy. Haynesworth defeated a ridiculous 43 percent of his point of attack blocks, which was the highest percentage in that category among defensive tackles. His specialty was exploding into the backfield, something clearly shown by the 13 penetration plays he made, which were tied for second in that category. One other incredibly surprising metric for Haynesworth is that he also had 19 pursuit plays, which is something one would not expect from a man of his size.

    • James Hall, DE, Lions: Hall is largely seen as a pass rusher but nearly all of his major run metrics were in the top four among defensive ends. Hall defeated over 35 percent of the run blocks directed at him. His 3.6 yards allowed per run attempt was good enough to rank him 11th in the league at his position.

    • Mike Patterson, DT, Eagles: Patterson could easily make a case that he was the best rookie defensive lineman in the NFL last year. He defeated over 27 percent of his blocks (the 15th best percentage among defensive tackles) and he also allowed only 3.5 yards per attempt. If Patterson did this well last year when the Eagles were very thin on the defensive line due to injuries, he could be positively dominant if that unit stays healthy this year. "
    do they have a ranking of all DT's from last year?
    What we've got here is failure to communicate.

  3. #43
    whackthepack is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Pat Williams back to leading D-line

    "Del Rio" wrote:
    "whackthepack" wrote:
    Del I don't think I am one of your favorite people on PPO, and that is OK.

    I do like to argue about DT's with you, but I think it kinda bothers you and i do not mean to piss you off!

    I am not a head coach or a D coordinator but I do understand how the game is played, and I do respect your knowledge of the game!

    I do like to argue with you about it tho, and we just have different opinions on what a DT should do! It doesn't mean I don't understand what gap philosophy is, I am just not a huge fan of it.

    When Keith Millard was playing should he have been a gapper and taken away one of the most explosive defense players the Vikings have ever had, to fill a hole!

    The same with John Randall? He should have been a team guy and not gone after plays aggresively and let his teammates be the playmakers?
    I think you misunderstand me there is a progression all lineman go through.

    Whack your one of my favorite people on here. I like arguing with everyone, your one of my favorite.

    Ok then lets go!

    Just kidding!

    But did you see the post above you? And who they had as #1 DT?

    And if I was not mistaken I did not see them mention Hovan on that list.
    What we've got here is failure to communicate.

  4. #44
    Del Rio Guest

    Re: Pat Williams back to leading D-line

    "whackthepack" wrote:
    "Del Rio" wrote:
    "whackthepack" wrote:
    Del I don't think I am one of your favorite people on PPO, and that is OK.

    I do like to argue about DT's with you, but I think it kinda bothers you and i do not mean to piss you off!

    I am not a head coach or a D coordinator but I do understand how the game is played, and I do respect your knowledge of the game!

    I do like to argue with you about it tho, and we just have different opinions on what a DT should do! It doesn't mean I don't understand what gap philosophy is, I am just not a huge fan of it.

    When Keith Millard was playing should he have been a gapper and taken away one of the most explosive defense players the Vikings have ever had, to fill a hole!

    The same with John Randall? He should have been a team guy and not gone after plays aggresively and let his teammates be the playmakers?
    I think you misunderstand me there is a progression all lineman go through.

    Whack your one of my favorite people on here. I like arguing with everyone, your one of my favorite.

    Ok then lets go!

    Just kidding!

    But did you see the post above you? And who they had as #1 DT?

    And if I was not mistaken I did not see them mention Hovan on that list.
    I'm not paying that list much attention. I highly doubt he watched all defensive tackles EVERY play to see what blocks they beat lol. Even if he did it is a nearly worthless stat. Does he know the blocking assignments? How does determine a block has been beaten? I mean if my job is to scrape you and release does he count that as a broken block?

    Breaking a block is your job. Every D tackle should be able to do that. It is what you do after that counts. Weather that is maintaining a gap or making a play.

    So no I do not value his stats. Refreshing to see a different angle, but too many variable to make it worth anything.

  5. #45
    Rastak's Avatar
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    Re: Pat Williams back to leading D-line

    "Del Rio" wrote:
    "whackthepack" wrote:
    "Del Rio" wrote:
    "whackthepack" wrote:
    Del I don't think I am one of your favorite people on PPO, and that is OK.

    I do like to argue about DT's with you, but I think it kinda bothers you and i do not mean to piss you off!

    I am not a head coach or a D coordinator but I do understand how the game is played, and I do respect your knowledge of the game!

    I do like to argue with you about it tho, and we just have different opinions on what a DT should do! It doesn't mean I don't understand what gap philosophy is, I am just not a huge fan of it.

    When Keith Millard was playing should he have been a gapper and taken away one of the most explosive defense players the Vikings have ever had, to fill a hole!

    The same with John Randall? He should have been a team guy and not gone after plays aggresively and let his teammates be the playmakers?
    I think you misunderstand me there is a progression all lineman go through.

    Whack your one of my favorite people on here. I like arguing with everyone, your one of my favorite.

    Ok then lets go!

    Just kidding!

    But did you see the post above you? And who they had as #1 DT?

    And if I was not mistaken I did not see them mention Hovan on that list.
    I'm not paying that list much attention. I highly doubt he watched all defensive tackles EVERY play to see what blocks they beat lol. Even if he did it is a nearly worthless stat. Does he know the blocking assignments? How does determine a block has been beaten? I mean if my job is to scrape you and release does he count that as a broken block?

    Breaking a block is your job. Every D tackle should be able to do that. It is what you do after that counts. Weather that is maintaining a gap or making a play.

    So no I do not value his stats. Refreshing to see a different angle, but too many variable to make it worth anything.

    Del, that's EXACTLY what he did...he evaluated every single play run from scrimmage. He's kind of the Bill James of football. He ranks all kinds of stuff. By the way, I'm not knocking you, I appreceate your opinions and knowledge.

  6. #46
    cogitans is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Pat Williams back to leading D-line

    [size=18px]Williams not declared game-ready[/size]
    [size=9px]Judd Zulgad, Star Tribune[/size]

    MANKATO - Although Pat Williams went through a second day of practice Tuesday after being activated from the physically unable to perform list, coach Brad Childress would not say whether the nose tackle will play in the preseason opener Monday night against Oakland.

    "I'm going to share that with you guys probably when we get done with the mock game on Sunday," Childress said. "We'll talk to you about playing time for everybody and how long you can expect to see them. He's got to play through this week, too. Different things happen."

    The Vikings were unhappy with Williams' weight and conditioning when he reported to camp. However, Childress said Tuesday that Williams had not failed the Vikings' conditioning test July 31. In fact, Childress was so concerned about Williams that he didn't even have him take the test.

    "He had to condition cardiovascular-wise," Childress said. "I felt that the mix of the weight, his age [33] and the heat is a bad mix. I'm going to use discretion in terms of when he practices. He's back and he's done everything we've asked him to do. He didn't like [being out]; I didn't like it."

    Asked if Williams had reached the target weight set for him, Childress said, "that's between Pat and I. He's working on his girlish figure."

    Childress also would not say if the 6-3 Williams was near the 317-pound mark at which the Vikings have him listed. "That would be a competitive disadvantage for me to tell you that so I'm not going to disclose that," Childress said. "That [weight is from] when he came out of college so you can surmise whatever you want about whether he's come back a pound lighter or whether he's come back a pound heavier every year."

    Kevin Williams returns

    Defensive tackle Kevin Williams was back on the field Tuesday. He had sat out the previous two days because of swelling in his troublesome right knee.

    Childress had earlier described Williams' knee problems as "chronic." He did not back away from that Tuesday but said, "It is a chronic problem, but there are a lot of those guys out there we're not advertising that have chronic, degenerative arthritis in there."

    Etc.

    • Chester Taylor, slowed in recent days because of a groin strain, had back-to-back rushes of about 20 yards when the Vikings' first-team offense went against the second-team defense.

    • Cornerback Dovonte Edwards returned after missing one day because of a strained right thigh.

    • Noted surgeon James Andrews operated on the fractured left kneecap of safety Tank Williams on Tuesday in Birmingham, Ala. The surgery was considered successful and no additional damage was found. Childress said he expects Williams' leg to be immobilized for four to six weeks. Williams will spend a week in Birmingham and is expected to return to the Vikings' Winter Park facility later this month.

    Thanks to PPE for the sig.

  7. #47
    Del Rio Guest

    Re: Pat Williams back to leading D-line

    "Rastak" wrote:
    "Del Rio" wrote:
    "whackthepack" wrote:
    "Del Rio" wrote:
    "whackthepack" wrote:
    Del I don't think I am one of your favorite people on PPO, and that is OK.

    I do like to argue about DT's with you, but I think it kinda bothers you and i do not mean to piss you off!

    I am not a head coach or a D coordinator but I do understand how the game is played, and I do respect your knowledge of the game!

    I do like to argue with you about it tho, and we just have different opinions on what a DT should do! It doesn't mean I don't understand what gap philosophy is, I am just not a huge fan of it.

    When Keith Millard was playing should he have been a gapper and taken away one of the most explosive defense players the Vikings have ever had, to fill a hole!

    The same with John Randall? He should have been a team guy and not gone after plays aggresively and let his teammates be the playmakers?
    I think you misunderstand me there is a progression all lineman go through.

    Whack your one of my favorite people on here. I like arguing with everyone, your one of my favorite.

    Ok then lets go!

    Just kidding!

    But did you see the post above you? And who they had as #1 DT?

    And if I was not mistaken I did not see them mention Hovan on that list.
    I'm not paying that list much attention. I highly doubt he watched all defensive tackles EVERY play to see what blocks they beat lol. Even if he did it is a nearly worthless stat. Does he know the blocking assignments? How does determine a block has been beaten? I mean if my job is to scrape you and release does he count that as a broken block?

    Breaking a block is your job. Every D tackle should be able to do that. It is what you do after that counts. Weather that is maintaining a gap or making a play.

    So no I do not value his stats. Refreshing to see a different angle, but too many variable to make it worth anything.

    Del, that's EXACTLY what he did...he evaluated every single play run from scrimmage. He's kind of the Bill James of football. He ranks all kinds of stuff. By the way, I'm not knocking you, I appreceate your opinions and knowledge.
    So he watched ~64 guys for every single snap of every single game of the season?

    Like I said (to me anyway) even if he did do that the stats he focused on are damn near useless.

  8. #48
    VikesfaninWis's Avatar
    VikesfaninWis is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Pat Williams back to leading D-line

    "cogitans" wrote:
    [size=18px]Williams not declared game-ready[/size]
    [size=9px]Judd Zulgad, Star Tribune[/size]

    MANKATO - Although Pat Williams went through a second day of practice Tuesday after being activated from the physically unable to perform list, coach Brad Childress would not say whether the nose tackle will play in the preseason opener Monday night against Oakland.

    "I'm going to share that with you guys probably when we get done with the mock game on Sunday," Childress said. "We'll talk to you about playing time for everybody and how long you can expect to see them. He's got to play through this week, too. Different things happen."

    The Vikings were unhappy with Williams' weight and conditioning when he reported to camp. However, Childress said Tuesday that Williams had not failed the Vikings' conditioning test July 31. In fact, Childress was so concerned about Williams that he didn't even have him take the test.

    "He had to condition cardiovascular-wise," Childress said. "I felt that the mix of the weight, his age [33] and the heat is a bad mix. I'm going to use discretion in terms of when he practices. He's back and he's done everything we've asked him to do. He didn't like [being out]; I didn't like it."

    Asked if Williams had reached the target weight set for him, Childress said, "that's between Pat and I. He's working on his girlish figure."

    Childress also would not say if the 6-3 Williams was near the 317-pound mark at which the Vikings have him listed. "That would be a competitive disadvantage for me to tell you that so I'm not going to disclose that," Childress said. "That [weight is from] when he came out of college so you can surmise whatever you want about whether he's come back a pound lighter or whether he's come back a pound heavier every year."

    Kevin Williams returns

    Defensive tackle Kevin Williams was back on the field Tuesday. He had sat out the previous two days because of swelling in his troublesome right knee.

    Childress had earlier described Williams' knee problems as "chronic." He did not back away from that Tuesday but said, "It is a chronic problem, but there are a lot of those guys out there we're not advertising that have chronic, degenerative arthritis in there."

    Etc.

    • Chester Taylor, slowed in recent days because of a groin strain, had back-to-back rushes of about 20 yards when the Vikings' first-team offense went against the second-team defense.

    • Cornerback Dovonte Edwards returned after missing one day because of a strained right thigh.

    • Noted surgeon James Andrews operated on the fractured left kneecap of safety Tank Williams on Tuesday in Birmingham, Ala. The surgery was considered successful and no additional damage was found. Childress said he expects Williams' leg to be immobilized for four to six weeks. Williams will spend a week in Birmingham and is expected to return to the Vikings' Winter Park facility later this month.

    By the looks of this artice, it seems like we are getting some of our health back.. That is a good thing..

  9. #49
    Rastak's Avatar
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    Re: Pat Williams back to leading D-line

    "Del Rio" wrote:
    "Rastak" wrote:
    "Del Rio" wrote:
    "whackthepack" wrote:
    "Del Rio" wrote:
    Quote Originally Posted by whackthepack
    Del I don't think I am one of your favorite people on PPO, and that is OK.

    I do like to argue about DT's with you, but I think it kinda bothers you and i do not mean to piss you off!

    I am not a head coach or a D coordinator but I do understand how the game is played, and I do respect your knowledge of the game!

    I do like to argue with you about it tho, and we just have different opinions on what a DT should do! It doesn't mean I don't understand what gap philosophy is, I am just not a huge fan of it.

    When Keith Millard was playing should he have been a gapper and taken away one of the most explosive defense players the Vikings have ever had, to fill a hole!

    The same with John Randall? He should have been a team guy and not gone after plays aggresively and let his teammates be the playmakers?
    I think you misunderstand me there is a progression all lineman go through.

    Whack your one of my favorite people on here. I like arguing with everyone, your one of my favorite.

    Ok then lets go!

    Just kidding!

    But did you see the post above you? And who they had as #1 DT?

    And if I was not mistaken I did not see them mention Hovan on that list.
    I'm not paying that list much attention. I highly doubt he watched all defensive tackles EVERY play to see what blocks they beat lol. Even if he did it is a nearly worthless stat. Does he know the blocking assignments? How does determine a block has been beaten? I mean if my job is to scrape you and release does he count that as a broken block?

    Breaking a block is your job. Every D tackle should be able to do that. It is what you do after that counts. Weather that is maintaining a gap or making a play.

    So no I do not value his stats. Refreshing to see a different angle, but too many variable to make it worth anything.

    Del, that's EXACTLY what he did...he evaluated every single play run from scrimmage. He's kind of the Bill James of football. He ranks all kinds of stuff. By the way, I'm not knocking you, I appreceate your opinions and knowledge.
    So he watched ~64 guys for every single snap of every single game of the season?

    Like I said (to me anyway) even if he did do that the stats he focused on are gol 'darnit near useless.

    Yea, that's what he did, he quit his job and watched every play and every player and came up with all kinds of Bill James like stats that don't show up in box scores. Anyway, you certainly could argue his criteria or his judgement since it's STILL subjective when evaluating lineman play.


    Hey it's all good, let's hope Pat impresses the hell out of you this year.

  10. #50
    Del Rio Guest

    Re: Pat Williams back to leading D-line

    "Rastak" wrote:
    "Del Rio" wrote:
    "Rastak" wrote:
    "Del Rio" wrote:
    "whackthepack" wrote:
    Quote Originally Posted by Del Rio
    Quote Originally Posted by whackthepack
    Del I don't think I am one of your favorite people on PPO, and that is OK.

    I do like to argue about DT's with you, but I think it kinda bothers you and i do not mean to piss you off!

    I am not a head coach or a D coordinator but I do understand how the game is played, and I do respect your knowledge of the game!

    I do like to argue with you about it tho, and we just have different opinions on what a DT should do! It doesn't mean I don't understand what gap philosophy is, I am just not a huge fan of it.

    When Keith Millard was playing should he have been a gapper and taken away one of the most explosive defense players the Vikings have ever had, to fill a hole!

    The same with John Randall? He should have been a team guy and not gone after plays aggresively and let his teammates be the playmakers?
    I think you misunderstand me there is a progression all lineman go through.

    Whack your one of my favorite people on here. I like arguing with everyone, your one of my favorite.

    Ok then lets go!

    Just kidding!

    But did you see the post above you? And who they had as #1 DT?

    And if I was not mistaken I did not see them mention Hovan on that list.
    I'm not paying that list much attention. I highly doubt he watched all defensive tackles EVERY play to see what blocks they beat lol. Even if he did it is a nearly worthless stat. Does he know the blocking assignments? How does determine a block has been beaten? I mean if my job is to scrape you and release does he count that as a broken block?

    Breaking a block is your job. Every D tackle should be able to do that. It is what you do after that counts. Weather that is maintaining a gap or making a play.

    So no I do not value his stats. Refreshing to see a different angle, but too many variable to make it worth anything.

    Del, that's EXACTLY what he did...he evaluated every single play run from scrimmage. He's kind of the Bill James of football. He ranks all kinds of stuff. By the way, I'm not knocking you, I appreceate your opinions and knowledge.
    So he watched ~64 guys for every single snap of every single game of the season?

    Like I said (to me anyway) even if he did do that the stats he focused on are gol 'darnit near useless.

    Yea, that's what he did, he quit his job and watched every play and every player and came up with all kinds of Bill James like stats that don't show up in box scores. Anyway, you certainly could argue his criteria or his judgement since it's STILL subjective when evaluating lineman play.


    Hey it's all good, let's hope Pat impresses the hell out of you this year.
    That is awesome. What a lucky guy. I wish I could quit my job and do what he does!

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