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  1. #1471
    jargomcfargo's Avatar
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    Re: Pat and Kevin Williams possible suspension?

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "BloodyHorns82" wrote:
    In summary, Pat and Kevin are gol 'darnit near obvious to blame for this whole ordeal, and they should be lucky that a loophole was found that may prevent their suspension.
    Fair enough?
    Works for me.
    Me too. My head hurts!
    What takes a quarterback to the next level is not arm strength or mobility or any of that stuff. Its the ability to play on critical downs. Manage third downs, or red zones or four-minute or two-minute situations"
    Dilfer

  2. #1472
    Vikes's Avatar
    Vikes is offline Team Alumni
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    Re: Pat and Kevin Williams possible suspension?

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "BloodyHorns82" wrote:
    In summary, Pat and Kevin are gol 'darnit near obvious to blame for this whole ordeal, and they should be lucky that a loophole was found that may prevent their suspension.
    Fair enough?
    Works for me.
    You call it a loop hole I call it the LAW!
    300

    The rigors of Spartan life. Leonidas is cast out into the wild, and survives the harsh winter to return to his home, when he is crowned King ....a Viking!

    300

  3. #1473
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    jmcdon00 is offline Jersey Retired Snake Champion, Moto Trial Fest 2: Mountain Pack Champion, LL City Truck 2 Champion, Arithmetic sequence Champion, Troops Tower Defense Champion
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    Re: Pat and Kevin Williams possible suspension?

    "Vikes" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "BloodyHorns82" wrote:
    In summary, Pat and Kevin are gol 'darnit near obvious to blame for this whole ordeal, and they should be lucky that a loophole was found that may prevent their suspension.
    Fair enough?
    Works for me.
    You call it a loop hole I call it the LAW!
    +1

  4. #1474
    ejmat is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Pat and Kevin Williams possible suspension?

    I just heard on NFLN that Goodell is choosing to defer the suspensions of the Saint players because he doesn't think it is fair and he isn't prepared to treat players differently for the same conduct.
    This is actually smart and I agree with this decision by Goodell.
    Basically what he is saying is that there are no suspensions AT THIS TIME.
    However, it sounds like he is planning on pursuing the appeal process and if it is determined later on that the Williams' can be suspended then he would take the same action with Grant and Smith at that time.
    Therefore he is leaving his options open.
    I can't fault him for that.

  5. #1475
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    Re: Pat and Kevin Williams possible suspension?

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "gagarr" wrote:
    "josdin00" wrote:
    "gagarr" wrote:
    "Zeus" wrote:
    [quote author=gagarr link=topic=48758.msg994449#msg994449 date=1252710724]

    The CBA is clear that players are responsible for what they put in their bodies.

    If so why does the NFL have a list of approved substances?
    It's the players responsibility, by creating a list the NFL takes on the responsibility to have all approved substances on the list, including Cheetos and celery.
    What would have been nice is if the NFL had a list of products they tested that contained banned substances that were not listed on the products ingredients label.
    That would be a good list... short one... since Starcaps would be the only one on it.

    The NFL shouldn't have ever gotten involved in determining approved substances, if the player was going to be ultimately responsible for their choices.
    If the drug policy is that strictly enforced, what would happen if the NFL screwed up and put a product with a banned substance on their approved list.
    The NFL screws up, but it doesn't matter because the player is responsible PERIOD.

    Goodell should have used common sense from the beginning and this whole fiasco could have been avoided.
    As it is, Goodell has created a BIG mess that has affected the pro sports industry.
    The NFL tests certain supplements because of an agreement they have with the manufacturer (not sure who it is - EAS maybe?)
    They get to say they are the official supplements of the NFL and the NFL tells the players - "These are okay."
    That's why.

    =Z=
    So why did the NFL test Starcaps?
    The lab told NFL that Starcaps contained a undisclosed banned substance. Knowing this the NFL didn't tell anyone, not the FDA (who the lab recommended they inform), not the NFLPA, nor any players. All they did was tell players not to ENDORSE the company that made Starcaps, but no mention of the lab results of Starcaps.
    Why?
    If the NFL knew, WHY didn't they let the players know?

    1. The NFL has an agreement with EAS where EAS says that nothing on the NFL's banned substances list is in the EAS Supplements. EAS products then get put on the 'approved supplement list'. To my knowledge, the NFL does not actually test these supplements, instead relying on EAS to hold true to their contracted word.

    2. The NFL had StarCaps in response to either a player's request, or a player's positive test result. I am unclear on those details.

    3. As Nodak and I have mentioned, and you can read for yourself below (I'm posting it again for clarity's sake, but Nodak already posted this exact quote), the NFLPA did tell the players' agents that the players were not to use anything by BHP.

    "josdin00" wrote:
    "gagarr" wrote:
    You wrote:
    "What they [NFL] did do was inform all players and the NFLPA not to endorse or use any supplement made by Balanced Health Products (the makers of Starcaps).
    "

    I can't find anything that indicates the NFL said not to USE supplements from BHP, only not to ENDORSE.
    If you do please provide the link.
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/15976006/N...mmary-Judgment

    That is a link to the actual court document. If you look at page 7 of the doc, it states that:

    Discovery also revealed a memorandum from the NFLPA to players’ agents regarding the distributor of StarCaps.
    In that memorandum, the NFLPA informed the agents that“Balanced Health Products, which distributes StarCaps, has been added to the list ofprohibited dietary supplement companies.
    Players are prohibited from participating in anyendorsement agreement with this company or using any of their products.”
    I wrote:
    All they [NFL] did was tell players not to ENDORSE the company that made Starcaps, but no mention of the lab results of Starcaps.
    Why?
    If the NFL knew, WHY didn't they let the players know?
    I refer to page 4 of said document:
    Neither Lombardo nor Birch, however, told the teams, trainers, agents, or players that StarCaps contained bumetanide or any banned substance. Moreover, despite the lab director’s request that the NFL report the information about StarCaps to the Food & Drug Administration (“FDA”), Birch declined to do so.
    You found that the NFLPA informed the players agents not to endorse or use products from BHP, with no specific reference to Starcaps.

    Thus, my original statement stands, the NFL never informed the players, it went like this

    Lab: "Starcaps contains bumetanide" >> Lombardo: ??? >> NFL offical: "Players shouldn't endores BHP products" >> NFLPA: "Players shouldn't endorse or use BHP products" >> Agents: ??? >> Players: Need to check
    manufacturer, not just the ingredients list

    You have to wonder why it couldn't just go: Lab: "Starcaps contains bumetanide" >> Lombardo: "Don't take Starcaps" >> Player: throw out Starcaps

    I think K&P would have chosen "eat right and exercise" instead of Starcaps to lose the wait.


    Just think of the savings:
    Mailing 2000 letters ($2000) or paying lawyers, court time, etc. can't be less than $200,000, probably if you take all the time and effort of everyone involved $1 mill easy.
    Balanced Health Products makes Starcaps.
    It would be the same as saying that Players couldn't endorse or consume any products made by Kraft - that would mean no Mac and Cheese, no California Pizza, etc.

    Plus the umbrella ban SHOULD have extended to all products, not just Star Caps.
    The lab found that it illegally contained a banned, prescription ingredient.
    What is easier? Banning all BHP products or just the one that they caught?

    Should the NFL have informed the FDA? Yes.
    Should the NFL have been more clear in WHY players were prohibited from using products by BHP?
    Yes.
    But did the NFL inform the players that they could not use any product made by BHP, including Starcaps? Yes.


    The federal court already ruled that the NFL was not legally culpable to tell them anything else.
    The Williams aren't going to win this case because of any wrongdoing on the part of the NFL. They are going to win because of a loophole that they exploited.
    If the NFL chooses not to enforce the suspensions on the players who aren't protected by the loophole, then the league is making a fair decision to treat all of its players equally.
    [/quote]

    I totally agree "NFL was not legally culpable to tell them anything else".
    My issue is this whole thing could have been avoided. The NFL failed to realize they were partially at fault, because Lombardo gave a pass on the first group, tested Starcaps, and then didn't clearly tell the players about Starcaps.
    Thus, the NFL should have considered their actions, applied a little common sense and also gave these players a pass,
    AND THEN make it VERY CLEAR that Starcaps are BAD.
    Then they should either establish a system which clearly discloses findings of the NFL or don't muddy the waters by having approved and not approved lists.

    Regardless of the legal issue, the NFL behaved poorly during this whole fiasco.
    The potential ramifications of this ruling is not K&P's fault, it's the NFL's fault.
    It could have been avoided with a little common sense.
    [size=12pt]
    Page 148.5 **Doleman 150.5 **Randle 137.5 **Allen 73+
    [/size]

  6. #1476
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    Re: Pat and Kevin Williams possible suspension?

    I think the pics below sum up my thoughts on this entire situation:

    [size=46pt]=[/size]
    Skol!
    Go Vikings!

  7. #1477
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
    Purple Floyd is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Pat and Kevin Williams possible suspension?

    "gagarr" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "gagarr" wrote:
    "josdin00" wrote:
    "gagarr" wrote:
    [quote author=Zeus link=topic=48758.msg995389#msg995389 date=1252962413]
    [quote author=gagarr link=topic=48758.msg994449#msg994449 date=1252710724]

    The CBA is clear that players are responsible for what they put in their bodies.

    If so why does the NFL have a list of approved substances?
    It's the players responsibility, by creating a list the NFL takes on the responsibility to have all approved substances on the list, including Cheetos and celery.
    What would have been nice is if the NFL had a list of products they tested that contained banned substances that were not listed on the products ingredients label.
    That would be a good list... short one... since Starcaps would be the only one on it.

    The NFL shouldn't have ever gotten involved in determining approved substances, if the player was going to be ultimately responsible for their choices.
    If the drug policy is that strictly enforced, what would happen if the NFL screwed up and put a product with a banned substance on their approved list.
    The NFL screws up, but it doesn't matter because the player is responsible PERIOD.

    Goodell should have used common sense from the beginning and this whole fiasco could have been avoided.
    As it is, Goodell has created a BIG mess that has affected the pro sports industry.
    The NFL tests certain supplements because of an agreement they have with the manufacturer (not sure who it is - EAS maybe?)
    They get to say they are the official supplements of the NFL and the NFL tells the players - "These are okay."
    That's why.

    =Z=
    So why did the NFL test Starcaps?
    The lab told NFL that Starcaps contained a undisclosed banned substance. Knowing this the NFL didn't tell anyone, not the FDA (who the lab recommended they inform), not the NFLPA, nor any players. All they did was tell players not to ENDORSE the company that made Starcaps, but no mention of the lab results of Starcaps.
    Why?
    If the NFL knew, WHY didn't they let the players know?

    1. The NFL has an agreement with EAS where EAS says that nothing on the NFL's banned substances list is in the EAS Supplements. EAS products then get put on the 'approved supplement list'. To my knowledge, the NFL does not actually test these supplements, instead relying on EAS to hold true to their contracted word.

    2. The NFL had StarCaps in response to either a player's request, or a player's positive test result. I am unclear on those details.

    3. As Nodak and I have mentioned, and you can read for yourself below (I'm posting it again for clarity's sake, but Nodak already posted this exact quote), the NFLPA did tell the players' agents that the players were not to use anything by BHP.

    "josdin00" wrote:
    "gagarr" wrote:
    You wrote:
    "What they [NFL] did do was inform all players and the NFLPA not to endorse or use any supplement made by Balanced Health Products (the makers of Starcaps).
    "

    I can't find anything that indicates the NFL said not to USE supplements from BHP, only not to ENDORSE.
    If you do please provide the link.
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/15976006/N...mmary-Judgment

    That is a link to the actual court document. If you look at page 7 of the doc, it states that:

    Discovery also revealed a memorandum from the NFLPA to players’ agents regarding the distributor of StarCaps.
    In that memorandum, the NFLPA informed the agents that“Balanced Health Products, which distributes StarCaps, has been added to the list ofprohibited dietary supplement companies.
    Players are prohibited from participating in anyendorsement agreement with this company or using any of their products.”
    I wrote:
    All they [NFL] did was tell players not to ENDORSE the company that made Starcaps, but no mention of the lab results of Starcaps.
    Why?
    If the NFL knew, WHY didn't they let the players know?
    I refer to page 4 of said document:
    Neither Lombardo nor Birch, however, told the teams, trainers, agents, or players that StarCaps contained bumetanide or any banned substance. Moreover, despite the lab director’s request that the NFL report the information about StarCaps to the Food & Drug Administration (“FDA”), Birch declined to do so.
    You found that the NFLPA informed the players agents not to endorse or use products from BHP, with no specific reference to Starcaps.

    Thus, my original statement stands, the NFL never informed the players, it went like this

    Lab: "Starcaps contains bumetanide" >> Lombardo: ??? >> NFL offical: "Players shouldn't endores BHP products" >> NFLPA: "Players shouldn't endorse or use BHP products" >> Agents: ??? >> Players: Need to check
    manufacturer, not just the ingredients list

    You have to wonder why it couldn't just go: Lab: "Starcaps contains bumetanide" >> Lombardo: "Don't take Starcaps" >> Player: throw out Starcaps

    I think K&P would have chosen "eat right and exercise" instead of Starcaps to lose the wait.


    Just think of the savings:
    Mailing 2000 letters ($2000) or paying lawyers, court time, etc. can't be less than $200,000, probably if you take all the time and effort of everyone involved $1 mill easy.
    Balanced Health Products makes Starcaps.
    It would be the same as saying that Players couldn't endorse or consume any products made by Kraft - that would mean no Mac and Cheese, no California Pizza, etc.

    Plus the umbrella ban SHOULD have extended to all products, not just Star Caps.
    The lab found that it illegally contained a banned, prescription ingredient.
    What is easier? Banning all BHP products or just the one that they caught?

    Should the NFL have informed the FDA? Yes.
    Should the NFL have been more clear in WHY players were prohibited from using products by BHP?
    Yes.
    But did the NFL inform the players that they could not use any product made by BHP, including Starcaps? Yes.


    The federal court already ruled that the NFL was not legally culpable to tell them anything else.
    The Williams aren't going to win this case because of any wrongdoing on the part of the NFL. They are going to win because of a loophole that they exploited.
    If the NFL chooses not to enforce the suspensions on the players who aren't protected by the loophole, then the league is making a fair decision to treat all of its players equally.
    [/quote]

    I totally agree "NFL was not legally culpable to tell them anything else".
    My issue is this whole thing could have been avoided. The NFL failed to realize they were partially at fault, because Lombardo gave a pass on the first group, tested Starcaps, and then didn't clearly tell the players about Starcaps.
    Thus, the NFL should have considered their actions, applied a little common sense and also gave these players a pass,
    AND THEN make it VERY CLEAR that Starcaps are BAD.
    Then they should either establish a system which clearly discloses findings of the NFL or don't muddy the waters by having approved and not approved lists.

    Regardless of the legal issue, the NFL behaved poorly during this whole fiasco.
    The potential ramifications of this ruling is not K&P's fault, it's the NFL's fault.
    It could have been avoided with a little common sense.
    [/quote]

    As you said. It's sad when lawyers have to take the place of common sense.

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