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  1. #101
    Del Rio Guest

    Re: Pass defense is not as bad as everyone thinks.

    "Storm" wrote:
    They can and they probably are. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

    Then again I think the only significant change the offense made was limit their mistakes. Which is not on coaching imo.
    ;D ;D ;D ;D

    Sure they moves Williamson down the depth chart, and Tomlin did the same with Smoot. Changes are being made, but I doubt we will find a solution as easy as jam a little more. (Not that you said that) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
    Emoticons might be your friend, but knowing when to use 'em is your friend too.

    Anyway, the point is that our pass D blows. I think we kinda agree on that. But for you Tomlin is some sort of a God walking among us, and his system and his variations of cover 2 shall not be questioned be mere mortals. I, on the other hand, think that his system is full of crap. Prevent big play mentality on pass D leads to rookies throwing for 400 yards. Jamming some more might not make us shut teams out, but it might be worth looking at. Same thing with LBs not really doing anything on pass plays, as mentioned before. See, its the coach who should fix this, not players themselves. I cant really point at some one on our D and say that he got owned badly one on one. We do make some mistakes, but nothing too huge. Which leads me to think that its not solely on players, its on the coach as well.
    Your assuming an awful lot by saying i think Tomlin is a god, lmao. Especially given the fact that I just got done telling you I was critisizing his defense week one and took a considerable ammount of heat for it.

    I do not think Tomlin is a God, I do however think he is a coach, and I do think I would take his word over a fellow fan any day of the week. Especially when fans want a quick fix, and fans are saying things like we do not jam and we blitz too much when I watch every single game and see the exact opposite.

  2. #102
    Del Rio Guest

    Re: Pass defense is not as bad as everyone thinks.

    "jargomcfargo" wrote:
    "Del" wrote:
    "Storm" wrote:
    "Del" wrote:
    "Storm" wrote:
    [quote author=Del Rio link=topic=29443.msg502517#msg502517 date=1164744137]
    [quote author=Storm link=topic=29443.msg502511#msg502511 date=1164742262]
    Well, whichever version of cover 2 he's running is obviously not working for us. So maybe he should start jamming WRs at the line to give rushers more time to get to QB. Assuming they can do it at all, of course.
    :
    I guess if it was that easy then we would win the SB every year.

    Yeah, lets keep doing the same thing on pass D because we're doing it so well. Changing things is bad, mmmkay.
    It really depends mmmmmmmmmmmkay.

    I mean you have a system you want to play, and everybody progresses differently. So what if half your team has it down a handful of players are on the verge and a few are struggling? You're not going to go in an entirely different direction, and confuse everyone.

    I love it, lets flip this switch and make it all better ;D

    If it was that easy of a fix what makes you think Tomlin wouldn't do it in a heartbeat. Yeah it is great for defensive cords to get lit up, works wonders for the career plan.
    What makes you think that jamming WRs at the line takes your diffence into entirely new direction? OH NOES, we have to stand two yards closer to recievers, call the police! Its still cover 2...

    And yeah, making changes and adjustments is soemtimes easy. It didnt take a rocket scientist to figure out that we needed to mix things up on offense with longer throws, TE involvement and some personal changes. And look, it worked!

    How about trying something new on pass D as well?
    It worked against the worst team in the NFL, that being said it had been working over time anyway, plus having a healthy Marcus Robinson helped.

    As you said how hard would it be to jam the WR? If it is easy then why not do it? Are you suggesting Tomlin is stubborn or are you suggesting he just doesn't know how to run a defense?

    Even so I would be willing to bet anyone here 20$ that if you tape the Bears Vikings game this week, you will see we blitz no more then they do and we jam just as often. We have been jamming all year and if someone wants to take me up on this that has TIVO we can go play by play and count who does what. Because I guarantee you we jam the WR's quite a bit.

    We all have our theory's as to why it isn't working and the truth is probably somewhere in between. I have been saying this pass defense was bad since week one when I saw NAPO running 30 yards downfield with a WR.

    I don't think the problem is the jaming, or the blitzing it is the large ammount of space Tomlin expects his LB's to be able to cover.
    [/quote]

    I agree. You could see it a bit more clearly when Dontarrius Thomas spelled Napo. Thomas played his heart out but didn't have the speed to quite get there on some coverages.
    I also blame the lack of a pass rush. No zone can stand up to a quarterback with no pressure on him.
    And yes we do jam receivers at times. More last week than before it seemed. Probably because there was nothing but passing.

    There are key elements to every scheme. You need a middle linebacker with a lot of talent to run this type of defense.You need speed from your other linebackers as well. You also need a pocket disrupting line.Erasmus was a huge loss.They seemed to do much better at least with hurries when he was playing.


    [/quote]

    I agree with you.


    Furthermore I don't see how Tomlin can change the entire scheme at this point in the season and jamming WR's is not the problem.

    Too much field to cover. A LB will not outrun a WR, if he does he is in the Probowl.

  3. #103
    Storm's Avatar
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    Re: Pass defense is not as bad as everyone thinks.

    "Del" wrote:
    "Storm" wrote:
    They can and they probably are. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

    Then again I think the only significant change the offense made was limit their mistakes. Which is not on coaching imo.
    ;D ;D ;D ;D

    Sure they moves Williamson down the depth chart, and Tomlin did the same with Smoot. Changes are being made, but I doubt we will find a solution as easy as jam a little more. (Not that you said that) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
    Emoticons might be your friend, but knowing when to use 'em is your friend too.

    Anyway, the point is that our pass D blows. I think we kinda agree on that. But for you Tomlin is some sort of a God walking among us, and his system and his variations of cover 2 shall not be questioned be mere mortals. I, on the other hand, think that his system is full of crap. Prevent big play mentality on pass D leads to rookies throwing for 400 yards. Jamming some more might not make us shut teams out, but it might be worth looking at. Same thing with LBs not really doing anything on pass plays, as mentioned before. See, its the coach who should fix this, not players themselves. I cant really point at some one on our D and say that he got owned badly one on one. We do make some mistakes, but nothing too huge. Which leads me to think that its not solely on players, its on the coach as well.
    Your assuming an awful lot by saying i think Tomlin is a god, lmao. Especially given the fact that I just got done telling you I was critisizing his defense week one and took a considerable ammount of heat for it.

    I do not think Tomlin is a God, I do however think he is a coach, and I do think I would take his word over a fellow fan any day of the week. Especially when fans want a quick fix, and fans are saying things like we do not jam and we blitz too much when I watch every single game and see the exact opposite.
    Erm, nowhere did I write that we dont jam. We do jam sometimes, but not nearly enough for my liking. And we do line up an awful lot with big cushions to Wrs. As if we are afraid that they will run right past our backs and burn us for a big play. And that what ticks me off, because everytime we do that their QB throws for 10-15 yards almost at will.

  4. #104
    thevikingfan's Avatar
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    Re: Pass defense is not as bad as everyone thinks.

    "singersp" wrote:
    "thevikingfan" wrote:
    OK enough is enough.Our pass defense is not terrible so stop saying it over and over and over....The only reason teams rack up the passing yards on us is because they give up running the ball.Thats what you get when you are the top rushing defense in the league!The card ran in only 5 times today!Leinhart threw it FIFTY ONE TIMES! 51! OF COARSE HE IS GONNA GET A LOT OF YARDS!
    I'll say it again, our pass defense is terrible. We do not get enough pressure on the QB & teams seem to be successfully throwing 10-15 yard passes on us at will.

    Whether it's 20 or 50 times a game, they are moving the chains time & time again. I may be mistaken, but I believe the Cardinals never even punted yesterday.

    They don't seem to tighten up the coverage until our opponents are in the redzone.

    How often this year have we held a team to a 3 & out?
    they didnt punt because they had 5 turnovers

  5. #105
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    Re: Pass defense is not as bad as everyone thinks.

    i dont know if anybody has said this yet because i was too lazy to read all the relplies but i think the hole in our secondary is not the corners but is the fault of Dwight Smith

    Dont let the interceptions fool you he constantly gives up big plays


    and what happend to the pressure by our d-line some sacks please

  6. #106
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    Re: Pass defense is not as bad as everyone thinks.

    "thevikingfan" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:
    "thevikingfan" wrote:
    OK enough is enough.Our pass defense is not terrible so stop saying it over and over and over....The only reason teams rack up the passing yards on us is because they give up running the ball.Thats what you get when you are the top rushing defense in the league!The card ran in only 5 times today!Leinhart threw it FIFTY ONE TIMES! 51! OF COARSE HE IS GONNA GET A LOT OF YARDS!
    I'll say it again, our pass defense is terrible. We do not get enough pressure on the QB & teams seem to be successfully throwing 10-15 yard passes on us at will.

    Whether it's 20 or 50 times a game, they are moving the chains time & time again. I may be mistaken, but I believe the Cardinals never even punted yesterday.

    They don't seem to tighten up the coverage until our opponents are in the redzone.

    How often this year have we held a team to a 3 & out?
    they didnt punt because they had 5 turnovers
    Sweet, you did finally have balls enough to come back.

    Now, how about that pass D?
    Not so good is it?

    Also, not all of the fumbles came from the offense.
    Better check on that.

  7. #107
    cajunvike's Avatar
    cajunvike is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Pass defense is not as bad as everyone thinks.

    "jargomcfargo" wrote:
    "Del" wrote:
    "Storm" wrote:
    "Del" wrote:
    "Storm" wrote:
    [quote author=Del Rio link=topic=29443.msg502517#msg502517 date=1164744137]
    [quote author=Storm link=topic=29443.msg502511#msg502511 date=1164742262]
    Well, whichever version of cover 2 he's running is obviously not working for us. So maybe he should start jamming WRs at the line to give rushers more time to get to QB. Assuming they can do it at all, of course.
    :
    I guess if it was that easy then we would win the SB every year.

    Yeah, lets keep doing the same thing on pass D because we're doing it so well. Changing things is bad, mmmkay.
    It really depends mmmmmmmmmmmkay.

    I mean you have a system you want to play, and everybody progresses differently. So what if half your team has it down a handful of players are on the verge and a few are struggling? You're not going to go in an entirely different direction, and confuse everyone.

    I love it, lets flip this switch and make it all better ;D

    If it was that easy of a fix what makes you think Tomlin wouldn't do it in a heartbeat. Yeah it is great for defensive cords to get lit up, works wonders for the career plan.
    What makes you think that jamming WRs at the line takes your diffence into entirely new direction? OH NOES, we have to stand two yards closer to recievers, call the police! Its still cover 2...

    And yeah, making changes and adjustments is soemtimes easy. It didnt take a rocket scientist to figure out that we needed to mix things up on offense with longer throws, TE involvement and some personal changes. And look, it worked!

    How about trying something new on pass D as well?
    It worked against the worst team in the NFL, that being said it had been working over time anyway, plus having a healthy Marcus Robinson helped.

    As you said how hard would it be to jam the WR? If it is easy then why not do it? Are you suggesting Tomlin is stubborn or are you suggesting he just doesn't know how to run a defense?

    Even so I would be willing to bet anyone here 20$ that if you tape the Bears Vikings game this week, you will see we blitz no more then they do and we jam just as often. We have been jamming all year and if someone wants to take me up on this that has TIVO we can go play by play and count who does what. Because I guarantee you we jam the WR's quite a bit.

    We all have our theory's as to why it isn't working and the truth is probably somewhere in between. I have been saying this pass defense was bad since week one when I saw NAPO running 30 yards downfield with a WR.

    I don't think the problem is the jaming, or the blitzing it is the large ammount of space Tomlin expects his LB's to be able to cover.
    [/quote]

    I agree. You could see it a bit more clearly when Dontarrius Thomas spelled Napo. Thomas played his heart out but didn't have the speed to quite get there on some coverages.
    I also blame the lack of a pass rush. No zone can stand up to a quarterback with no pressure on him.
    And yes we do jam receivers at times. More last week than before it seemed. Probably because there was nothing but passing.

    There are key elements to every scheme. You need a middle linebacker with a lot of talent to run this type of defense.You need speed from your other linebackers as well. You also need a pocket disrupting line.Erasmus was a huge loss.They seemed to do much better at least with hurries when he was playing.


    [/quote]

    DT runs a 4.4...how much faster does he need to be?
    It was probably more a problem with his reads than his speed.
    BANNED OR DEAD...I'LL TAKE EITHER ONE

  8. #108
    whackthepack is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Pass defense is not as bad as everyone thinks.

    "Storm" wrote:
    "Del" wrote:
    "Storm" wrote:
    They can and they probably are. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

    Then again I think the only significant change the offense made was limit their mistakes. Which is not on coaching imo.
    ;D ;D ;D ;D

    Sure they moves Williamson down the depth chart, and Tomlin did the same with Smoot. Changes are being made, but I doubt we will find a solution as easy as jam a little more. (Not that you said that) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
    Emoticons might be your friend, but knowing when to use 'em is your friend too.

    Anyway, the point is that our pass D blows. I think we kinda agree on that. But for you Tomlin is some sort of a God walking among us, and his system and his variations of cover 2 shall not be questioned be mere mortals. I, on the other hand, think that his system is full of crap. Prevent big play mentality on pass D leads to rookies throwing for 400 yards. Jamming some more might not make us shut teams out, but it might be worth looking at. Same thing with LBs not really doing anything on pass plays, as mentioned before. See, its the coach who should fix this, not players themselves. I cant really point at some one on our D and say that he got owned badly one on one. We do make some mistakes, but nothing too huge. Which leads me to think that its not solely on players, its on the coach as well.
    Your assuming an awful lot by saying i think Tomlin is a god, lmao. Especially given the fact that I just got done telling you I was critisizing his defense week one and took a considerable ammount of heat for it.

    I do not think Tomlin is a God, I do however think he is a coach, and I do think I would take his word over a fellow fan any day of the week. Especially when fans want a quick fix, and fans are saying things like we do not jam and we blitz too much when I watch every single game and see the exact opposite.
    Erm, nowhere did I write that we dont jam. We do jam sometimes, but not nearly enough for my liking. And we do line up an awful lot with big cushions to Wrs. As if we are afraid that they will run right past our backs and burn us for a big play. And that what ticks me off, because everytime we do that their QB throws for 10-15 yards almost at will.


    It all comes back to Smoot eventually he is terrible at jamming and plays off to far on the receivers and that is that.
    I am sorry if somebody disagrees but after watching him for a season and a half with the Vikes he is not worth the money we are paying him and should be traded (don't think we would get much) or released after this season.

    If you watch Griffin he has an instinct for jamming and bumming a receiver and by next year with him Winfield and Devonte Edwards and a new CB added in the offseason we will have an improved backfield.

    I think Sharper will still be at the top of his game and with Tank back and Blue and Smith we should be set at safety.

    Plus I really like Gordon and think he will be a great reserve for our CB's.
    What we've got here is failure to communicate.

  9. #109
    Mr Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: Pass defense is not as bad as everyone thinks.

    "Del" wrote:
    I have a hard time believing that Tomlin who coached LB's for a truely dominant cover two team doesn't know how to run a cover two.

    I have never played in the NFL so I have no idea how it works but in college, in HS, in pee-wee.......if you do not do what the coach asks you to do then you do not play. I assume if in the NFL Tomlin is telling his CB's to JAM then they will Jam and if he tells his LB's to cover then they cover.

    So it must be on him, and the only solution I can think of (If everything you have said is true) is he isn't playing the traditional cover two at all.
    It's 100% true according to Sports Illustrated.

    And yes linebackers do blitz in the cover 2, but very rarely overload blitzes like we have been showing, and it usually is not the MLB, which is the most important position in the system, we need to keep Harris or DT back, whoever is in there and they need to stop that post route or we will never stop any passing teams.


    I am truly scared when we play the Rams at the end of the year, Bulger has been picking zones apart all season, and if we don't step it up he might have 500 yards. Leinart had 51 attempts yesterday, last year against the giants Bulger had 63..... 63!!!!

  10. #110
    sleepagent is offline Hall of Famer
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    Re: Pass defense is not as bad as everyone thinks.

    "thevikingfan" wrote:
    OK enough is enough.Our pass defense is not terrible so stop saying it over and over and over....The only reason teams rack up the passing yards on us is because they give up running the ball.Thats what you get when you are the top rushing defense in the league!The card ran in only 5 times today!Leinhart threw it FIFTY ONE TIMES! 51! OF COARSE HE IS GONNA GET A LOT OF YARDS!
    I am not gonna read 10 pages of responses, so I'll give you mine.

    WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING?

    We got shredded.
    The reason he passed 51 times is because we couldn't stop them!
    If we could stop a passing game, there would be under 200 yards regardless of the rushing.

    Our pass defense stinks to high heaven and we need 2 shutdown cover corners for starters!

    Not that bad?
    :

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