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  1. #21
    i_bleed_purple's Avatar
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    Re: Pass Blocking Effciency: Tight Ends

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1098963
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1098961
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1098960
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1098958
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1098957
    Long story short, your Hybrid TE's are going to become a thing of the past and I give it 2 more years.

    I said you hybrid, light assed, no blocking, tipping the hand of the play when they come in, TE role had 2 more years.......
    That's all I'm talking about. Big, strong receivers who make the big catches. If you think I'm talking about little guys like Dallas Clark, then maybe. It takes a certain type of system for them to succeed. I'm talking about the pass-first TE's. Guys like Gates or Gonzales, who while yes, they can block, their biggest threat is as a receiver.
    Care to explain how that is NOT saying it's a dying position?
    Put them back together. I was talking about Inline and Hybrid TE's. Believe it or not, they are two different breeds...

    One, the Inline, is a cat the defense doesn't know what he is in there for....Run blocking/Pass catching.....

    The other, the hybrid, is in there for one reason, to run a route (in almost every circumstance) and he tips your hand on what you are going to do.
    Ok, what would you classify Dallas Clark as? Definitely not a blocker. He's a pure speed/receiving TE. However, he plays most downs, and him being in there does not necessarily mean they're passing (Their lack of run game, however does mean that)
    I qualify Dallas Clark as a Hybrid on a team that teams know are coming in to pass first.

    Quick question, when Clark comes out and what are they going to do when their new guy (Brody can't remember his last name) comes in?
    Did you really ask me what they'll do when they take out possibly one of the more dangerous receiving TE/QB duos, and replace it with a run blocking 5th round TE who never really did much receiving?

    What do you think? That's like saying what will defenses do against the Vikings if we take Harvin and Rice out and replace them with Lewis and Berrian. Focus on the run. Not necessarily because it means we're running, but because the threat of a pass is gone.
    Do you really believe that teams don't rotate stars in and out?
    That really wasn't the point of what I said, now is it?

    Point in case, we rotate Peterson in and out. Take Peterson out, and teams play the pass a little more, even though we might run, Gerhart/Booker/CTaylor is/was not nearly the rushing threat that AP is.

  2. #22
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Pass Blocking Effciency: Tight Ends

    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1098973
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1098963
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1098961
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1098960
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1098958
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1098957
    Long story short, your Hybrid TE's are going to become a thing of the past and I give it 2 more years.

    I said you hybrid, light assed, no blocking, tipping the hand of the play when they come in, TE role had 2 more years.......
    That's all I'm talking about. Big, strong receivers who make the big catches. If you think I'm talking about little guys like Dallas Clark, then maybe. It takes a certain type of system for them to succeed. I'm talking about the pass-first TE's. Guys like Gates or Gonzales, who while yes, they can block, their biggest threat is as a receiver.
    Care to explain how that is NOT saying it's a dying position?
    Put them back together. I was talking about Inline and Hybrid TE's. Believe it or not, they are two different breeds...

    One, the Inline, is a cat the defense doesn't know what he is in there for....Run blocking/Pass catching.....

    The other, the hybrid, is in there for one reason, to run a route (in almost every circumstance) and he tips your hand on what you are going to do.
    Ok, what would you classify Dallas Clark as? Definitely not a blocker. He's a pure speed/receiving TE. However, he plays most downs, and him being in there does not necessarily mean they're passing (Their lack of run game, however does mean that)
    I qualify Dallas Clark as a Hybrid on a team that teams know are coming in to pass first.

    Quick question, when Clark comes out and what are they going to do when their new guy (Brody can't remember his last name) comes in?
    Did you really ask me what they'll do when they take out possibly one of the more dangerous receiving TE/QB duos, and replace it with a run blocking 5th round TE who never really did much receiving?

    What do you think? That's like saying what will defenses do against the Vikings if we take Harvin and Rice out and replace them with Lewis and Berrian. Focus on the run. Not necessarily because it means we're running, but because the threat of a pass is gone.
    Do you really believe that teams don't rotate stars in and out?
    That really wasn't the point of what I said, now is it?

    Point in case, we rotate Peterson in and out. Take Peterson out, and teams play the pass a little more, even though we might run, Gerhart/Booker/CTaylor is/was not nearly the rushing threat that AP is.
    I am aware of your point, just wanted you to make it a bit clearer so you understand this......

    a. Your saying AD makes us predictable.

    b. I say a Hybrid TE makes teams predictable.

    c. Being predictable is bad.

    d. Teams will do everything to fix predictability.

    Answer for this discussion is to find "Inline TE's" that can not only block but run a route, not add more Hybrids to the roster.

    Again, a breed thats end is near, much the same as a FB that only comes in to block on running plays.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  3. #23
    i_bleed_purple's Avatar
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    Re: Pass Blocking Effciency: Tight Ends

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1098974
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1098973
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1098963
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1098961
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1098960
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1098958
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1098957
    Long story short, your Hybrid TE's are going to become a thing of the past and I give it 2 more years.

    I said you hybrid, light assed, no blocking, tipping the hand of the play when they come in, TE role had 2 more years.......
    That's all I'm talking about. Big, strong receivers who make the big catches. If you think I'm talking about little guys like Dallas Clark, then maybe. It takes a certain type of system for them to succeed. I'm talking about the pass-first TE's. Guys like Gates or Gonzales, who while yes, they can block, their biggest threat is as a receiver.
    Care to explain how that is NOT saying it's a dying position?
    Put them back together. I was talking about Inline and Hybrid TE's. Believe it or not, they are two different breeds...

    One, the Inline, is a cat the defense doesn't know what he is in there for....Run blocking/Pass catching.....

    The other, the hybrid, is in there for one reason, to run a route (in almost every circumstance) and he tips your hand on what you are going to do.
    Ok, what would you classify Dallas Clark as? Definitely not a blocker. He's a pure speed/receiving TE. However, he plays most downs, and him being in there does not necessarily mean they're passing (Their lack of run game, however does mean that)
    I qualify Dallas Clark as a Hybrid on a team that teams know are coming in to pass first.

    Quick question, when Clark comes out and what are they going to do when their new guy (Brody can't remember his last name) comes in?
    Did you really ask me what they'll do when they take out possibly one of the more dangerous receiving TE/QB duos, and replace it with a run blocking 5th round TE who never really did much receiving?

    What do you think? That's like saying what will defenses do against the Vikings if we take Harvin and Rice out and replace them with Lewis and Berrian. Focus on the run. Not necessarily because it means we're running, but because the threat of a pass is gone.
    Do you really believe that teams don't rotate stars in and out?
    That really wasn't the point of what I said, now is it?

    Point in case, we rotate Peterson in and out. Take Peterson out, and teams play the pass a little more, even though we might run, Gerhart/Booker/CTaylor is/was not nearly the rushing threat that AP is.
    I am aware of your point, just wanted you to make it a bit clearer so you understand this......

    a. Your saying AD makes us predictable.
    Apparantly, I'm not making myself clear.

    If we take out Shank and put in Kliensasser, odds are we're using him to block. If we take out AP to rest and put in Gerhart, we still very much might run, but we're just less of a threat to hurt them with a big play.

  4. #24
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    Re: Pass Blocking Effciency: Tight Ends

    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1098977
    Apparantly, I'm not making myself clear.

    If we take out Shank and put in Kliensasser, odds are we're using him to block. If we take out AP to rest and put in Gerhart, we still very much might run, but we're just less of a threat to hurt them with a big play.
    Ohhhh no, your clear. You have realized, about 4 posts ago, that your point wasn't valid.

    First you strayed to the 310lbr and I would let you, then you went down the Clark thing and I wouldn't let you, now your steering away from the predictability point by swinging to the "Big Play" spin.

    Focus my friend. This thread is about Blocking efficiency. The ones that suck are hybrids. The ones that don't aren't.

    One makes you predictable, one doesn't.

    Teams are moving away from the ones that can't block and make you predictable. No matter how you try to spin it, I won't let you get to far away from that discussion point.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  5. #25
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    Re: Pass Blocking Effciency: Tight Ends

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1098991
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1098977
    Apparantly, I'm not making myself clear.

    If we take out Shank and put in Kliensasser, odds are we're using him to block. If we take out AP to rest and put in Gerhart, we still very much might run, but we're just less of a threat to hurt them with a big play.
    Ohhhh no, your clear. You have realized, about 4 posts ago, that your point wasn't valid.

    First you strayed to the 310lbr and I would let you, then you went down the Clark thing and I wouldn't let you, now your steering away from the predictability point by swinging to the "Big Play" spin.

    Focus my friend. This thread is about Blocking efficiency. The ones that suck are hybrids. The ones that don't aren't.

    One makes you predictable, one doesn't.

    Teams are moving away from the ones that can't block and make you predictable. No matter how you try to spin it, I won't let you get to far away from that discussion point.
    hardly. You tried to make the point that taking dallas Clark out for that rookie run blocker means they're not passing anymore. Not the case.. Odds just ar that they might not pass to him.

  6. #26
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    Re: Pass Blocking Effciency: Tight Ends

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1098956
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1098952
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1098940
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1098921
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1098912
    Funny how we hack all over the OL for their inability to pass block, but when some actual data is provided, to counter that, we don't see a word out of the "Our OL sucks" crowd.

    Sad day on PPO my friends. .........snicker........

    Long story short, if you look at our pass blocking we have issues that are more glaring than our OL my friends.

    Pass Blocking Efficiency, Running Backs, Bottom 15, 2010
    Rank Name Team Pass Blocking Snaps Pressures PBE
    1 Ray Rice BLT 132 17 10.61
    2 Adrian L. Peterson MIN 76 9 9.21
    Pass Blocking Efficiency: Running Backs

    Thank the good lord for Ray Rice or AD would be at the bottom of the list.
    Riiight...because Kleinsasser and Peterson were in to block on every down....

    Funny how whenever the word "Block" is used in a positive light, you immediately attribute it to the O-Line.

    Fact is, Kleinsasser is a fantastic blocking TE...no one disputes that.

    The other truth, however, is that our O-Line (LT, LG, C, RG, RT) sucked. And, yes, 16th place is another way of statistically saying "Sucked".

    Caine
    I agree with you on Sauce. Were was Shanc? How about Dugan? Sauce isn't the only TE blocking on this staff.

    By the way, you keep throwing 16th out there. Seems to me they were 13th in a couple of areas. Regardless, if that sucks, I wonder what you call 32nd.

    By the way, what happened to the Caine who posted a few posts back, that I lauded by the way, who said it was a bigger issue than our OL?
    1: Kleinie isn't the only TE, but he's the most effective blocker...that's been true for a LONG time. Shiancoe is primarily a big receiver.

    2: 13th still sucks. FYI, 32nd = "Sucks almost as bad as Packer fans"

    3: What did I say was a bigger issue than the O-Line?

    Caine
    If my memory servers, you said what I've been saying, blocking as a whole by all parts, to include QB play was the issue, not just the OL.
    Yes, I stated that there were issues on the entire offense that made the O-line's job that much harder.

    Let's face it, there wasn't one "failure point" on our team last season. There wasn't one thing we could have replaced and had a dramatically different result.

    Not Favre.

    Not McKinnie.

    Not Rice, or Berrian, or Harvin.

    It was all of those elements failing at the same time that caused our problems.

    And as they started to fall apart, each one dragged the others that much further down, until the whole thing snowballed. Each part got progressively worse as the season wore on.

    Doesn't change the fact that each part did indeed suck.

    Doesn't alter the fact that each piece has to take responsibility for the elements that it CAN address and do so.

    But it also doesn't mean it was all Favre (as some have been trying to insist) as Jackson would have done no better (Let's not kid ourselves on that point anymore), and didn't.

    It also wasn't ALL the O-Line. But consistent poor play from McKinnie over the years has made many of us very quick to single him out. Loadholt's level of play fell off - or so it seemed - and the comparisons to Mckinnie began to extend beyond the height thing.

    So, yes, I agree that there were a lot of contributing factors that lead to a heightened impression of poor Line play...but I also believe that there WAS poor line play. And no matter who else screwed up, at no point did the line suck it up and play through it.

    Just because no one else did either doesn't change the fact that they didn't.

    And that's where I stand on that.

    Caine

  7. #27
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    Re: Pass Blocking Effciency: Tight Ends

    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1098996
    Yes, I stated that there were issues on the entire offense that made the O-line's job that much harder.

    Let's face it, there wasn't one "failure point" on our team last season. There wasn't one thing we could have replaced and had a dramatically different result.

    Not Favre.

    Not McKinnie.

    Not Rice, or Berrian, or Harvin.

    It was all of those elements failing at the same time that caused our problems.

    And as they started to fall apart, each one dragged the others that much further down, until the whole thing snowballed. Each part got progressively worse as the season wore on.

    Doesn't change the fact that each part did indeed suck.

    Doesn't alter the fact that each piece has to take responsibility for the elements that it CAN address and do so.

    But it also doesn't mean it was all Favre (as some have been trying to insist) as Jackson would have done no better (Let's not kid ourselves on that point anymore), and didn't.

    It also wasn't ALL the O-Line. But consistent poor play from McKinnie over the years has made many of us very quick to single him out. Loadholt's level of play fell off - or so it seemed - and the comparisons to Mckinnie began to extend beyond the height thing.

    So, yes, I agree that there were a lot of contributing factors that lead to a heightened impression of poor Line play...but I also believe that there WAS poor line play. And no matter who else screwed up, at no point did the line suck it up and play through it.

    Just because no one else did either doesn't change the fact that they didn't.

    And that's where I stand on that.
    Caine
    We stand united then......
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

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