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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Yup...you're right. You're insight into the situation has pierced the veil of my shallow empty posturing.


    Oh...wait....no.....you haven't got a friggin clue.

    I'll take your blatherings one at a time....

    Jerry Jones is another example of a guy who doesn't know when to let go. He wasn't a "Football" guy, and he drove away the ones who were (Landry, Johnson, Parcells). As a result, he - like Al Davis before him - is constantly chasing what he won't likely see again...respect.

    Of course, pointing out Jones' failings as an owner doesn't validate Zygi. If anything, it damns him further by highlighting the fact that owners who meddle too much screw up their franchises. So, not really sure why you'd even toss Jones into the mix unless you haven't the foggiest notion of the complexities of the topic at hand.

    So, how has Zygi been a SUCCESSFUL owner? Do we have a Superbowl trophy? Nope. Winning franchise? nope. Strong prospects for building on? Not really. A strong front office with the ability to attract and sign and/or draft talent? No. A strong coaching staff with the ability tom develop talent or develop quality game plans? No.

    See a pattern?

    What did Zygi do wrong that lead to this? HE WANTED TO PLAY "FOOTBALL GUY"!!!!!! Then, to make matters worse, he hired his FEWKIN BROTHERS to be a part of the process!!!! He hired Childress because Childress was a newbie HC and didn't have the cred to tell Zygi to stay in the owner's suite (Same reason Childress hired Bevell). When THAT blew up in his face, he went and hired Leslie Frazier for the SAME REASON. He gave a nod to the notion of having a GM by hiring Spielman, but Spielman's track record is ABYSMAL, and he doesn't have the clout to tell Zygi to stay in the box either.

    In short, we will NEVER have a Cowher, Parcells, or a Holmgren here because a REAL HC wouldn't stand for Zygi keeping his fingers in the mix. Mostly because he doesn't have a friggin clue.

    Finally, you said I wouldn't do any better. I beg to differ. I am smart enough to know what I don't know...and what I don't know is the inner workings of an NFL franchise. THEREFORE, I would have sought the advice of the NFL home office, and compiled a list of possible GM names, interviewed them each while comparing their successes and failures. Finally, I would have hired the candidate I felt would give the franchise the greatest opportunity to succeed and I would have LET HIM DO WHAT HE'S PAID TO DO!!!!!! My Brother would NOT be the President of Football operations - mostly because he's a Packtard, but also because (like ME ) he's just a FAN!!!

    So, please tell me where I'm wrong. Please show me how Zygi has actually improved our situation (and don't even try to mention the new stadium ). If you knew my history, you'd see that from DAY ONE I was one of a handful here who was advocating a GM. I even specifically stated that my greatest fear was that our new owner would want to "play with his new toy"...which he's done.

    But, please, don't let my short condensed version of reality dissuade you from elaborating on just how "stupid" I am.

    I can hardly wait.

    Caine
    Holmgren has done a real good job in Cleveland now hasn't he? Parcells has done what since his glory days with the Giants? It took Cowher years to get his team to the promise land. These so called real head coaches had a bit of success and you crown them kings?

    I didnt call you stupid, what I called stupid was the fact that you honestly think you could do a better job. I understand you opinion but I disagree with it and that is my opinion.

    Go ahead and tell me I am wrong again if it makes you feel better.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Yup...you're right. You're insight into the situation has pierced the veil of my shallow empty posturing.


    Oh...wait....no.....you haven't got a friggin clue.

    I'll take your blatherings one at a time....

    Jerry Jones is another example of a guy who doesn't know when to let go. He wasn't a "Football" guy, and he drove away the ones who were (Landry, Johnson, Parcells). As a result, he - like Al Davis before him - is constantly chasing what he won't likely see again...respect.

    Of course, pointing out Jones' failings as an owner doesn't validate Zygi. If anything, it damns him further by highlighting the fact that owners who meddle too much screw up their franchises. So, not really sure why you'd even toss Jones into the mix unless you haven't the foggiest notion of the complexities of the topic at hand.

    So, how has Zygi been a SUCCESSFUL owner? Do we have a Superbowl trophy? Nope. Winning franchise? nope. Strong prospects for building on? Not really. A strong front office with the ability to attract and sign and/or draft talent? No. A strong coaching staff with the ability tom develop talent or develop quality game plans? No.

    See a pattern?

    What did Zygi do wrong that lead to this? HE WANTED TO PLAY "FOOTBALL GUY"!!!!!! Then, to make matters worse, he hired his FEWKIN BROTHERS to be a part of the process!!!! He hired Childress because Childress was a newbie HC and didn't have the cred to tell Zygi to stay in the owner's suite (Same reason Childress hired Bevell). When THAT blew up in his face, he went and hired Leslie Frazier for the SAME REASON. He gave a nod to the notion of having a GM by hiring Spielman, but Spielman's track record is ABYSMAL, and he doesn't have the clout to tell Zygi to stay in the box either.

    In short, we will NEVER have a Cowher, Parcells, or a Holmgren here because a REAL HC wouldn't stand for Zygi keeping his fingers in the mix. Mostly because he doesn't have a friggin clue.

    Finally, you said I wouldn't do any better. I beg to differ. I am smart enough to know what I don't know...and what I don't know is the inner workings of an NFL franchise. THEREFORE, I would have sought the advice of the NFL home office, and compiled a list of possible GM names, interviewed them each while comparing their successes and failures. Finally, I would have hired the candidate I felt would give the franchise the greatest opportunity to succeed and I would have LET HIM DO WHAT HE'S PAID TO DO!!!!!! My Brother would NOT be the President of Football operations - mostly because he's a Packtard, but also because (like ME ) he's just a FAN!!!

    So, please tell me where I'm wrong. Please show me how Zygi has actually improved our situation (and don't even try to mention the new stadium ). If you knew my history, you'd see that from DAY ONE I was one of a handful here who was advocating a GM. I even specifically stated that my greatest fear was that our new owner would want to "play with his new toy"...which he's done.

    But, please, don't let my short condensed version of reality dissuade you from elaborating on just how "stupid" I am.

    I can hardly wait.

    Caine



    .......and there it is!

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by PackSux! View Post
    Holmgren has done a real good job in Cleveland now hasn't he? Parcells has done what since his glory days with the Giants? It took Cowher years to get his team to the promise land. These so called real head coaches had a bit of success and you crown them kings?

    I didnt call you stupid, what I called stupid was the fact that you honestly think you could do a better job. I understand you opinion but I disagree with it and that is my opinion.

    Go ahead and tell me I am wrong again if it makes you feel better.
    Nice rebuttal....

    I see, you didn't call ME stupid...just everything I said....

    ...and the difference is?

    Here's an idea, next time say "Hey, I disagree with your idea/opinion (Insert said idea/opinion here), and here's why (insert supporting reasons)". Then we get to start a DIALOGUE.

    But you didn't do that. Singer knew what was coming after your first post.

    So now, let me address your wonderfully insightful and dazzlingly thorough rebuttal.

    You NOW want to remove an element of my post and try and make it an Achilles's heel. You seem to believe that I have crowned Cowher, Parcels, and Holmgren as "kings"? I haven't. I simply held them up as examples of experienced HC's who WON'T coach here...and gave a reason why. Something you didn't refute.

    You stated that Cowher took "years to get his team to the promise land"...but he got TO the Superbowl in 4 years. Further, in his 15 years coaching, he won the Division 8 times, went to the Playoffs 10 times, and played in 2 Superbowls, winning 1. What he DIDN'T have was an OWNER riding his ass, telling him what to do, who to sign, and generally getting involved in the FOOTBALL aspects of the franchise. We have that.

    You tried to blast Holmgren for Cleveland's lack of success. Really? This is his SECOND year there. In his 17 years as a HC, Mike went to Playoffs 12 times, went to the Superbowl 3 times, and won once. What he DIDN'T have was an OWNER riding his ass, telling him what to do, who to sign, and generally getting involved in the FOOTBALL aspects of the franchise. We have that. (Sound familiar?)

    Then you demonstrated that you really have no knowledge about Bill Parcells. Here, save me some typing....go read this: Bill Parcells - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    These headcoaches all had TWO things in common. 1: They won Superbowls. 2: They DIDN'T have Owners who interfered (Except Parcells in Dallas).

    OUR Owner interferes. He is STILL interfering. He is making hiring decisions. He has installed his BROTHERS into authority positions within the organization so that they too can make decisions. This isn't my opinion, this is FACT.

    And, when you look at the situation our team is in, and you start tracing the line of responsibility, it all winds up smack dab in the lap of one Zygi Wilf. Something YOU haven't even remotely refuted...you simply said my opinion was "stupid".

    Could I do a better job? I have zero doubt of that - and I outlined exactly why in my previous post (a "why" that you conveniently ignored).

    Finally, you say you disagree with my opinion, but you don't say WHY. Step up, sunshine. You threw the gauntlet, I have now responded TWICE. Tell me WHY I'm wrong and why my opinion is "Stupid".

    I can hardly wait.

    Caine

  4. #14
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    Are owners at fault for Minnesota's unprecedented sports skid?

    I must say, this new iPhone app is really cool.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Nice rebuttal....

    I see, you didn't call ME stupid...just everything I said....

    ...and the difference is?
    Ok, well I admit that I haven't been reading this at all so I don't really know anything except you and PackSux are going back and forth. All I wanted to interject is that the only way that PackSux calling everything you said in a post stupid is the same as calling you stupid, is if that post encapsulated everything about you as a person. I'm sure you are a lot more than what you said in one post, and whether it was stupid or not, him calling it stupid doesn't mean he's defining you as stupid.

    That was the only thing I saw in your post and I will move on now. But you CAN think that what someone believe's about a topic can be stupid without calling them stupid. I've seen you countless times attack someone's beliefs on things (as we all do, it's a forum for cripes sake) and I know you don't think they're stupid for it.
    I am NOT here to provide good football insight or rational observations. I am an emotional 19 year old Viking fan and I expect you to adjust your expectations from my posts.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by 12purplepride28 View Post
    Ok, well I admit that I haven't been reading this at all so I don't really know anything except you and PackSux are going back and forth. All I wanted to interject is that the only way that PackSux calling everything you said in a post stupid is the same as calling you stupid, is if that post encapsulated everything about you as a person. I'm sure you are a lot more than what you said in one post, and whether it was stupid or not, him calling it stupid doesn't mean he's defining you as stupid.

    That was the only thing I saw in your post and I will move on now. But you CAN think that what someone believe's about a topic can be stupid without calling them stupid. I've seen you countless times attack someone's beliefs on things (as we all do, it's a forum for cripes sake) and I know you don't think they're stupid for it.

    Really? COUNTLESS times I've "Attacked" someone's beliefs? Are you SURE that's what i do? I mean, after all, you just stated that you didn't actually READ the posts here...you just caught something (out of context) and tried to make a profound point... Then you supported your motivations by claiming that I "countless times attack someone's beliefs on things"....

    Or have you seen me take an opposing position to something someone else posts and support my own position with facts? See, that's my typical response to things I disagree with - I tell you I disagree and WHY. I don't call you stupid (Unless you're Marrdro, and we're arguing the same thing for the thirtieth time, and you keep bringing up the same falsehoods over and over, etc). Now, if you FEEL stupid after I've gone over my position and why I feel that way, that's not my fault....I blame the public school system.

    Second, don't play semantic games by trying to pull the "if this encapsulates your totality of being" malarky. We're way past that. ESPECIALLY if, by your own admittance, you HAVEN'T EVEN READ THE POSTS!!!!!!!! Part of the point of my responses to PS was to not make unsupported comments without looking at the facts, and here you go and do JUST THAT!!!!

    Furthermore, if you read the entirety of his first post, the TONE is dismissive and demeaning. he said, in a nutshell, "Your opinion is stupid, you couldn't do any better". In short, it was offensive. In fact, Singer knew IMMEDIATELY how I would respond. I responded in a very thorough fashion, detailing why I was NOT stupid, and outlining how I COULD do better and his response was - in a nutshell - "yeah, well, I still say you're wrong"

    Now, if you really want to go round and round on this little off-shoot, fine. I'm bored and have some time to kill. But NEXT time, read the posts. Find out what's being discussed, WHY it's being discussed, and what the salient points are. In the meantime, interjection rejected.

    Caine

  7. #17
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    I wasn't trying to make a profound point. I was simply saying, in more words, "Don't be a bitch. This is a forum and just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean you think they are stupid as a person."
    I am NOT here to provide good football insight or rational observations. I am an emotional 19 year old Viking fan and I expect you to adjust your expectations from my posts.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    .......and there it is!

    Quite a surprise too. Never saw this before.
    Why must you defend everything this FO does....to the point of making your self look like a yes man.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Nice rebuttal....

    I see, you didn't call ME stupid...just everything I said....

    ...and the difference is?

    Here's an idea, next time say "Hey, I disagree with your idea/opinion (Insert said idea/opinion here), and here's why (insert supporting reasons)". Then we get to start a DIALOGUE.

    But you didn't do that. Singer knew what was coming after your first post.

    So now, let me address your wonderfully insightful and dazzlingly thorough rebuttal.

    You NOW want to remove an element of my post and try and make it an Achilles's heel. You seem to believe that I have crowned Cowher, Parcels, and Holmgren as "kings"? I haven't. I simply held them up as examples of experienced HC's who WON'T coach here...and gave a reason why. Something you didn't refute.

    You stated that Cowher took "years to get his team to the promise land"...but he got TO the Superbowl in 4 years. Further, in his 15 years coaching, he won the Division 8 times, went to the Playoffs 10 times, and played in 2 Superbowls, winning 1. What he DIDN'T have was an OWNER riding his ass, telling him what to do, who to sign, and generally getting involved in the FOOTBALL aspects of the franchise. We have that.

    You tried to blast Holmgren for Cleveland's lack of success. Really? This is his SECOND year there. In his 17 years as a HC, Mike went to Playoffs 12 times, went to the Superbowl 3 times, and won once. What he DIDN'T have was an OWNER riding his ass, telling him what to do, who to sign, and generally getting involved in the FOOTBALL aspects of the franchise. We have that. (Sound familiar?)

    Then you demonstrated that you really have no knowledge about Bill Parcells. Here, save me some typing....go read this: Bill Parcells - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    These headcoaches all had TWO things in common. 1: They won Superbowls. 2: They DIDN'T have Owners who interfered (Except Parcells in Dallas).

    OUR Owner interferes. He is STILL interfering. He is making hiring decisions. He has installed his BROTHERS into authority positions within the organization so that they too can make decisions. This isn't my opinion, this is FACT.

    And, when you look at the situation our team is in, and you start tracing the line of responsibility, it all winds up smack dab in the lap of one Zygi Wilf. Something YOU haven't even remotely refuted...you simply said my opinion was "stupid".

    Could I do a better job? I have zero doubt of that - and I outlined exactly why in my previous post (a "why" that you conveniently ignored).

    Finally, you say you disagree with my opinion, but you don't say WHY. Step up, sunshine. You threw the gauntlet, I have now responded TWICE. Tell me WHY I'm wrong and why my opinion is "Stupid".

    I can hardly wait.

    Caine
    Next time I will simple say I disagree with you and not say the word stupid, I dont want you thinking that I think you are stupid.

    You think Ziggy is a bad owner and I disagree.

    Here is why I disagree. I will try to be short and sweet about it.

    In 2005 Ziggy buys A Vikings team that had made it to the playoffs once since 2000, and that was in 2004 with a 8-8 record.

    In 2006 Ziggy hires a coach named Brad Childress and the team was basically gutted and changed.

    From 2006 to 2009 the team made strides and got better on the football field each and every year as our records indicate. Also the team made the playoffs in 2008, and made it to the NFC championship game in 2009.

    In 2010 the Brett Favre experiment backfired completely. The Randy Moss thing in my mind was to create ticket sales and try to salvage a lost season. Go ahead and blame Ziggy for that mess if you will, but the man needed to sell tickets. Childress was fired finally and the fans were happy. Frazier is head coach the rest of the season and got the team to show some spark( The Philly game is my example). Oh yeah and the Metrodump roof collapses and the lease expires in 2011.

    I believe the first 4 games of the 2011 season killed the teams confidence completely, the way we lost them games was heartbreaking. It didnt get any better when we lost Peterson to a terrible injury. We got to see some of our younger players get on the field mainly our quarterback of the future. The season turned out to be a rebuilding year.

    Since ziggy has owned the team I have seen a owner open up the pocket books and try to assemble a championship team which we had in 2009. There is no doubt in my mind that if we would of killed the Colts in the superbowl if we wouldn't of shot ourselves in the foot during the Championship game. That is just my opinion on that.

    People often bitch about not bringing in a big named head coach and the lack of spending in free agency the last couple of years, but I believe it is a direct result of the stadium issue. Why would any owner go and spend a bunch of money when they don't know the future of the franchise?

    I noticed before you said not to mention the stadium. Why is that? I give Ziggy a ass load of credit for getting the deal done and keeping my families beloved Vikings in the state of Minnesota. In the end Ziggy didn't want to hold out and decided to pony up an extra 50mil.

    I have never had a problem with Ziggy as a owner and I thank him for being the owner he is. I believe the best years are to come now that the stadium issue is resolved and Ziggy can go back to spending some coin(which I believe he will).

    You asked Why and now you have it. You will never change my mind on this topic and I dont expect to change yours.

    I dont believe I ever said you were wrong by the way, I am pretty sure I only called your opinion on you doing a better job than Ziggy stupid. Again, I am not calling you stupid as a person by any means, I just dont agree with your opinion on the subject.

    Have a nice day Sunshine.
    Last edited by PackSux!; 05-27-2012 at 11:53 AM.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by PackSux! View Post
    Next time I will simple say I disagree with you and not say the word stupid, I dont want you thinking that I think you are stupid.

    You think Ziggy is a bad owner and I disagree.

    Here is why I disagree. I will try to be short and sweet about it.

    In 2005 Ziggy buys A Vikings team that had made it to the playoffs once since 2000, and that was in 2004 with a 8-8 record.

    In 2006 Ziggy hires a coach named Brad Childress and the team was basically gutted and changed.

    From 2006 to 2009 the team made strides and got better on the football field each and every year as our records indicate. Also the team made the playoffs in 2008, and made it to the NFC championship game in 2009.

    In 2010 the Brett Favre experiment backfired completely. The Randy Moss thing in my mind was to create ticket sales and try to salvage a lost season. Go ahead and blame Ziggy for that mess if you will, but the man needed to sell tickets. Childress was fired finally and the fans were happy. Frazier is head coach the rest of the season and got the team to show some spark( The Philly game is my example). Oh yeah and the Metrodump roof collapses and the lease expires in 2011.

    I believe the first 4 games of the 2011 season killed the teams confidence completely, the way we lost them games was heartbreaking. It didnt get any better when we lost Peterson to a terrible injury. We got to see some of our younger players get on the field mainly our quarterback of the future. The season turned out to be a rebuilding year.

    Since ziggy has owned the team I have seen a owner open up the pocket books and try to assemble a championship team which we had in 2009. There is no doubt in my mind that if we would of killed the Colts in the superbowl if we wouldn't of shot ourselves in the foot during the Championship game. That is just my opinion on that.

    People often bitch about not bringing in a big named head coach and the lack of spending in free agency the last couple of years, but I believe it is a direct result of the stadium issue. Why would any owner go and spend a bunch of money when they don't know the future of the franchise?

    I noticed before you said not to mention the stadium. Why is that? I give Ziggy a ass load of credit for getting the deal done and keeping my families beloved Vikings in the state of Minnesota. In the end Ziggy didn't want to hold out and decided to pony up an extra 50mil.

    I have never had a problem with Ziggy as a owner and I thank him for being the owner he is. I believe the best years are to come now that the stadium issue is resolved and Ziggy can go back to spending some coin(which I believe he will).

    You asked Why and now you have it. You will never change my mind on this topic and I dont expect to change yours.

    I dont believe I ever said you were wrong by the way, I am pretty sure I only called your opinion on you doing a better job than Ziggy stupid. Again, I am not calling you stupid as a person by any means, I just dont agree with your opinion on the subject.

    Have a nice day Sunshine.
    Atta boy, Peaches!!! You finally got it!!!

    You're a bit off in your interpretation of history - leaving out some fundamental points which place us in the position we are now - but you showed a solid effort there.

    See, starting in 2005, we were also at the tail end of a rebuilding phase which had seen Mike Tice hamstrung financially by Red *screws squirrels* McCombs. When Wilf bought the team, the nucleus of a successful franchise existed. Of course, that was eliminated in '06 with the hiring of Childress.

    Now that in itself wasn't bad - many people were tired of Tice and felt the team needed a new direction. What raised hackles, however, was Childress' track record of NEVER having been the play caller and his hiring of Darrel Bevell as his OC. I was one of the first to predict bad things from this combination.

    Where you point to annual improvements, I instead see dumb luck smiling on Childress. Childress' KAO quickly showed itself to be a joke, and it was only the selection of Adrian Peterson in '07 that allowed Childress to salvage his hold on the team - and his job IMO.

    The Offense continued to sputter as we continued to be told by Childress that Jackson was ready to step up....wait...not yet....next year....ooops....maybe not.....next year for SURE.....I mean, how about NEXT year.......screw it, I'm getting Favre.

    This culminates in Childress getting a big fat contract extension....

    Now, you must be wondering how this reflects on Zygi? Throughout this entire process, many of us were calling for Childress' head. Zygi didn't pull the trigger. And, I will admit, there were some indicators that MAYBE things would turn around. Some of us, myself being one, didn't think they would, and clamored for Childress' removal.

    Finally, the '10 meltdown occurs. Favre's ankle can't stand up, his penis can - in an allged text - but taht doesn't save the team. And, FINALLY, Childress is fired.

    At THIS point, we are still waiting to see what type of owner we have. Is he going to repeat the mistakes of his early years and keep playing "Football Guy", or is he going to recognize that he is simply a rich fan, and remove himself and his family from day-to-day involvement?

    And Wilf hires Leslie Frazier. Another "No Experience" coach so that HE - Zygi Wilf - and his family can continue to stay in the decision making loop on football matters.

    If this were a property development conglomerate, I'd have no issue - that's what the Wilfs DO.....but this is FOOTBALL, something the Wilfs have only WATCHED.

    The hiring of Frazier, and then the hiring and promotion of Spielman - all the while KEEPING Zygi, Mark, and Lester Wilf in the decision making loop - simply indicates to me that Zygi hasn't figured out what Bob Kraft knows so well. His role isn't to make football decisions...his role is to hire football people to do that.

    As for the stadium....that's pure economics. Almost every academic economist agrees that the real winners in publicly funded stadiums are the team owners. That's been proven time and time again. What is almost NEVER proven is that the States benefit from these deals in the long run.

    At the end of the day, I am not a big fan right now of Zygi and the Wilf family. I think their continued involvement in the day-to-day FOOTBALL end of things will continue to slow our teams growth. I think that their desire to remain "in the mix" has limited our applicant pool, and will result in the continued hiring of coaches with little to no clout who will try to work a miracle while carrying the Wilfs on their back.

    Hell, we're 7 years into the Wilfs reign, and we're STILL rebuilding....and, worse, we're just now starting over AGAIN.

    And we will again in 2 years when Frazier gets fired....

    Caine

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