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  1. #121
    smegmavike is offline Coordinator
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    You continually make that statement, yet Webb has only started 2 games where he has played significant time during those games. He listed as having started a 3rd time, but Ponder started & played the whole game & Webb threw 1 pass in a wildcat play which he completed.

    Of those two starts, Webb won 1 game & lost the other & in those two games completed 65.4% & 62.5% of his passes. 1 Loss out of 2 starts hardly seems like a decent sample size to base that kind of statement from. Especially coming from a guy who's stating Ponder needs 2 years of starts before he can be judged. Sorry, but two starts isn't adequate time given the fact we know he can come off the bench & play.
    I agree completely. Hard to draw definitive conclusions based on such limited opportunities. The staff didn't feel he was the answer and chose Ponder instead. The staff is probably right, but they certainly have been wrong before. The only way Webb gets a shot is if Ponder gets injured.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    I don't think putting in a new QB would miraculously make our receivers start getting open.
    You don't think that putting a running QB back there who is fairly inaccurate back there would make them focus even less on the longer balls? I suspect putting Webb back there WOULD make our receivers start getting open. Hell, only cover two of them, they still won't get hit.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_bleed_purple View Post
    You don't think that putting a running QB back there who is fairly inaccurate back there would make them focus even less on the longer balls? I suspect putting Webb back there WOULD make our receivers start getting open. Hell, only cover two of them, they still won't get hit.
    What I am saying is what Harvin was talking about. Receivers are already open now with Ponder. If they put Webb in they'll still be getting open.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by smegmavike View Post
    I agree completely. Hard to draw definitive conclusions based on such limited opportunities. The staff didn't feel he was the answer and chose Ponder instead. The staff is probably right, but they certainly have been wrong before. The only way Webb gets a shot is if Ponder gets injured.
    I don't think Webb should have started either. I'm simply stating to claim Webb doesn't play well when teams prepare for him is very premature based on two starts in his rookie year. THe win he did have was against a 10-4 Eagles team.

    When Ponder didn't do well last year fans were quick to point out that he was only a rookie.

    This year the hope was Ponder had more upside than Webb & was expected to improve, but we didn't see a whole lot of that. In some cases we saw regression rather than improvement, especially with his mechanics.
    Last edited by singersp; 11-30-2012 at 06:45 AM.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by i_bleed_purple View Post
    You don't think that putting a running QB back there who is fairly inaccurate back there would make them focus even less on the longer balls? I suspect putting Webb back there WOULD make our receivers start getting open. Hell, only cover two of them, they still won't get hit.
    What I am saying is what Harvin was talking about. Receivers are already open now with Ponder. If they put Webb in they'll still be getting open.
    Maybe Webb has matured. Maybe Webb can hit them. I am willing to see. He deserves a shot especially since Ponder has regressed.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by marstc09 View Post
    Maybe Webb has matured. Maybe Webb can hit them. I am willing to see. He deserves a shot especially since Ponder has regressed.
    You evaluate that in practices, not games. And the "regression" on Ponder is exaggerated. He has good games and bad games - more good than bad this year, although I admit that it has been more bad than good in the last six weeks. What that tells me is that he is inconsistent right now, not that he has regressed. It is important to find out what was the trend and what was the illusion. I agree with Singer on the important of finishing out the season.

    You don't bench your starting QB when your team is on the playoff bubble based on some "maybes" about a QB-turned-WR-turned-QB-again.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    What I am saying is what Harvin was talking about. Receivers are already open now with Ponder. If they put Webb in they'll still be getting open.
    OK, this has been brought up a few times, but I have to ask - has anyone else watched the coaches film and commented on this?

    Obviously I don't have access to the 22 film, but I do have all of the games recorded, and when I go back and watch, I have a hard time finding open receivers from the ones that are in the frame. I think we are taking Harvin's comments (which were made in frustration) and blowing them up a bit.

    There ARE two or three plays each game that I can pick out an open receiver that was not targeted, and I think that is what Harvin is talking about. Sometimes Ponder targets somebody else who may be more covered, sometimes he holds the ball, a few times there were defenders in the backfield quickly and Ponder is scrambling. FYI, if Ponder if being flushed to one side of the field, it doesn't matter is a WR is open on the other side - throwing across your body while being pressured is a great way to get picked off. Every pop warner QB (and Brett Favre after 2009) knows that lesson.

    It isn't like there are open receivers every down that Ponder is just missing. Referring again and again to Harvin's comments a few weeks ago as evidence that "Receivers are already open now with Ponder" is misleading at best. Our WR corp honestly is not very good outside a couple of individuals. And right now our QB isn't very good either. Either the QB or the WR corps needs to step up their games (preferably both).
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    OK, this has been brought up a few times, but I have to ask - has anyone else watched the coaches film and commented on this?

    Obviously I don't have access to the 22 film, but I do have all of the games recorded, and when I go back and watch, I have a hard time finding open receivers from the ones that are in the frame. I think we are taking Harvin's comments (which were made in frustration) and blowing them up a bit.

    There ARE two or three plays each game that I can pick out an open receiver that was not targeted, and I think that is what Harvin is talking about. Sometimes Ponder targets somebody else who may be more covered, sometimes he holds the ball, a few times there were defenders in the backfield quickly and Ponder is scrambling. FYI, if Ponder if being flushed to one side of the field, it doesn't matter is a WR is open on the other side - throwing across your body while being pressured is a great way to get picked off. Every pop warner QB (and Brett Favre after 2009) knows that lesson.

    It isn't like there are open receivers every down that Ponder is just missing. Referring again and again to Harvin's comments a few weeks ago as evidence that "Receivers are already open now with Ponder" is misleading at best. Our WR corp honestly is not very good outside a couple of individuals. And right now our QB isn't very good either. Either the QB or the WR corps needs to step up their games (preferably both).
    Wright comes in last week and gets 7 catches. Why is that? The other receivers on the team (outside of Harvin), have had more than ample opportunity to get similar production, yet game after game, they come up damned near empty.

    My guess is that Wright actually was getting open and Ponder felt comfortable throwing to him.

    On most any play in any game in the NFL there will be receivers who think they are open. In some cases they are right and the QB doesn't find them and other cases the coverage is setup to make a play that the reciever is unaware of, and in most cases the receiver thinks that no matter how well he is covered, he can still make the play.

    Ponder does miss open receivers no doubt, especially when pressured. One of the announcers on a game or so back (Steve Young maybe), mentioned how a lot of west coast QB's are taught to focus on half of the field as it is too difficult to take in the whole field on precise timing patterns. This is especially true for young QB's. This could still be an emphasis with Ponder at this point in his career, don't know, but the point is, there is a lot more to the concept of open recievers than a comment made by a disgruntled receiver.

    I'm not sure I would throw it to Simpson right now if he was wide open if he can't figure out how to use his hands to catch the ball.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    I do expect fans to at least be somewhat similar in their standards rather than than differ so greatly from one QB to the next. I don't expect fans to claim they only need to see 2 games to rule them a bust or back up at best & then demand they need to see 30+ out of another & claim maybe they're just young & starting off slow. Lets not forget those same 2 starts are behind the same starters on the OL & receiving corp that was blamed for another QB's failure to succeed.

    I don't expect fans to claim a QB sucks because he can't take the team on his back & overcome bad receiving corps & a bad OL & to blame the latter is making excuses for bad QB play, but then claim another QB's play is due to bad receiving corps & a bad OL, it's not fair to judge him based on those reasons & he needs more time behind a good receiving corp & a good OL before a decision can be made.

    If they are going to state certain reasons hold no validity for poor/mediocre play & are mere excuses, then I expect them to apply that same claim to all players rather than make the claim that they are valid reasons for a player they like.

    My opinion on Ponder is I've seen things I like & things I don't. Just like Jackson, he'll do things that make you a believer in him & then turn right around & disappoint you. That's what makes it such a tough call. Will he or won't he?

    I love his "take charge" attitude, but am growing weary of his multitude of LOS passes & 5 yard dumps. Is that the play that was called or is it he isn't looking or able to find open receivers or is hesitant to throw due to coverage. At first I was believing it was because of our receiving corp, but after reading Harvin stating film showed receivers are getting open but not being thrown to, I question QB play more.

    Outside of 10 yards I don't have a lot of confidence in his passing & judging by our opponents, they don't either. Sometimes he's spot on, other times way off. If the ball is 5 yards off target, it really doesn't matter how good that receivers hands are.

    He also tends to hold on to the ball to long.

    We are facing some tough opponents so it will give him an opportunity to show us what he can do or can't do.

    You also can't simply state you either believe in Ponder or you don't, Several fans like me are on the fence & could go either way.

    Many fans have said they want to continually see progress out of a young player. With Ponder, 21 games in, I don't see hardly any progress, if any from game 1 of the season. The Detroit game with him passing to 9 different receivers gave me hope, but last week, even minus the drops, I was disappointed.
    Very constructive post. I agree with a lot of it and I think many posters would as well.

    And your right, many folks are still on the fence with Ponder and not necessarily for or against him at this point.

    One big exception I do make to the post however, is that I don't think every player should necessarily be given the same treatment to form an opinion on his worthiness. Player evaluation is very subjective, both by coaches and by fans. In many cases, it is hard to completely qualify in words exactly what you like or dislike about a player, but if the guy doesn't pass the eye test to a particular individual, then he will lose faith in them. Many times the eye test is more accurate than any other analysis you try to make on a player. But again, it is very subjective.

  10. #130
    smegmavike is offline Coordinator
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    I'm simply stating to claim Webb doesn't play well when teams prepare for him is very premature based on two starts in his rookie year.
    This is where we agree 100%. In fact, the same thing could be said about Ponder. When teams prepare for him he doesn't play as well. Ponder played better early in the season.

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