Thread: Official Vikings vs. Bears postgame discussion

I still don't understand how Jackson keeps popping up like he was unfairly treated around here when he's in his 7th season, currently an inactive 3rd sting qb running the Bills scout team behind 2 7th round drafted qb's, the guys career is currently in a coma and he's not here.

As for Ponder, Spielman and Frazier have him in year 2 of a 3 year project, Bill Musgrave might be the fall guy at the end of the season for the lack of offense this season with Frazier on the hot seat the next year as the GM's next fall guy and then Spielman will get to pick his own guy to be coach (clean out Frazier staff) and it will be a few years before Spielman ends up on the hot seat.

Originally Posted by NodakPaul

Believe it or not, this was not one of Ponder's worst games IMHO. He played better against the Bears than he did against the Cardinals or the Seahawks. I would put both of those losses primarily on Ponder. Against the Bears, he had several balls that were right on target and simply dropped. I think we counted nine. Now I know what people will say - great QBs win games despite dropped balls - and they would be correct. But Ponder is not a great QB, at least not now. He needs the WRs to be on their game for us to win, just like the WRs need him to be on his game for us to win. Against the Bears, the WRs were way off. The only WR who did anything worth a crap was Wright. Not saying that Ponder was amazing, but just saying that the WRs were more of the problem against the Bears.

The critics are saying as many as 8 were dropped maximum. It's debatable of those 8, how many should & could have been dropped.

Of those 8, how many of them would have been game changers? I believe some of them, if caught, were short of the 1st down marker anyway. Those 3rd & long short dumps well short of the 1st down marker bug me as much as those definitely could & should have been caught passes do.

I agree, there were more passes dropped this game than any other this season that I recall, but that was only 1 game out of 11.

Originally Posted by NodakPaul

Leslie Frazier: Vikings drops “really unacceptable” | ProFootballTalk

Wow! Now there's an astounding observation & conclusion. We need to lock this guy up long term! What insight!

Originally Posted by NodakPaul

Actually no, TJack never had a game like Ponder did against Detroit. In fact, TJack has never passed 69% when attempting 25 or more passes.

Huh? He did just last year against the Steelers.

To be fair, I also don't recall a game where Jackson's has thrown as many bubble passes as Ponder does. Those caught bubble passes do a lot to boost a QB's completion %.

Originally Posted by vikinggreg

I still don't understand how Jackson keeps popping up like he was unfairly treated around here when he's in his 7th season, currently an inactive 3rd sting qb running the Bills scout team behind 2 7th round drafted qb's, the guys career is currently in a coma and he's not here

I think it has more to do with the way the two were treated differently. For instance, many fans here claimed Jackson had more than enough starts & didn't need any more chances & blaming drops by receivers, blaming poor receiving corps, blaming coaching/play calling & blaming a poor OL were nothing more than excuses.

Yet 4 years later, with Ponder having more starts than Jackson did, fans are claiming Ponder hasn't had enough starts, he needs more chances & are blaming drops by receivers, blaming poor receiving corps, blaming coaching/play calling & blaming a poor OL & calling those valid reasons for it. Not to mention, all Ponder's starts have been in succession & you don't hear how AD is carrying this team to any of our wins.

Both look bad. One is just worse than the other.

Originally Posted by singersp

The critics are saying as many as 8 were dropped maximum. It's debatable of those 8, how many should & could have been dropped.

Of those 8, how many of them would have been game changers? I believe some of them, if caught, were short of the 1st down marker anyway. Those 3rd & long short dumps well short of the 1st down marker bug me as much as those definitely could & should have been caught passes do.

I agree, there were more passes dropped this game than any other this season that I recall, but that was only 1 game out of 11.

Going back and rewatching the game, I counted 5 that were easy catches, three of them to Simpson and all were past the first down marker. I could only find one drop that was short of the first down marker, and that was to Carlson who had some running room. One was to Wright in the back of the endzone.

Anyway, I was only talking about this game - not the season. This game - specifically this game - the WRs take more credit for the loss than the QB should. So does the defense.

Originally Posted by singersp

Huh? He did just last year against the Steelers.

To be fair, I also don't recall a game where Jackson's has thrown as many bubble passes as Ponder does. Those caught bubble passes do a lot to boost a QB's completion %.

Well, no he didn't. He was 20/29 for 69% against the Steelers, so no, he didn't pass 69%. And that was the closest he ever came. But to be honest, I was referring to the time he played for the Vikings... you know, the time that is actually relevant to this discussion.

Originally Posted by singersp

I think it has more to do with the way the two were treated differently. For instance, many fans here claimed Jackson had more than enough starts & didn't need any more chances & blaming drops by receivers, blaming poor receiving corps, blaming coaching/play calling & blaming a poor OL were nothing more than excuses.

Yet 4 years later, with Ponder having more starts than Jackson did, fans are claiming Ponder hasn't had enough starts, he needs more chances & are blaming drops by receivers, blaming poor receiving corps, blaming coaching/play calling & blaming a poor OL & calling those valid reasons for it. Not to mention, all Ponder's starts have been in succession & you don't hear how AD is carrying this team to any of our wins.

Both look bad. One is just worse than the other.

I wish you would get over being so butt hurt over Jackson. There are just as many fans here clamoring to bench Ponder as there were for Jackson. Fact. And there were just as many fans (including you) who blamed the OL, WRs, playcalling, etc... Also Fact. It's over Johnny...

Originally Posted by NodakPaul

You are right, there are others who are being evaluated. So to be fair to them, don't you think they would like to have the player on the field who gives them the best chance to perform and win?

Yes. And at this point I am not convinced that Ponder is going to be that guy. I am also not convinced Webb is or hyphen man for that matter. What I do know is you will never really know if you keep doing the same thing and not trying something different if it isn't working.

If you think that player is Webb, then I can understand you wanting to put him in. I disagree, but understand.

I don't know if he is. I am not at practice every day to see what he has been doing or how his progress has improved, but being that they have Webb on the roster as the number 2 guy and didn't look to bring in anyone better then I will take the coaches action as an indication he can do what they need them to if asked. If you don't feel he can come in and run the offense then maybe you should question their judgement.

If you just want to put someone else in to see what happens... well then I disagree completely. You are screwing with people's careers then just to see what happens. Harvin is nearing the end of his contract, remember? I would like him to come back...

Just to see what happens? That is ridiculous. They have a guy as a backup that they have determined is capable of running the offense if Ponder goes down. If he can do that then he is capable enough to put out there to see if he can improve the production.

I am sure harvin is shaking in his boots to think the coaches might replace a QB that had less than 70 yards passing in 2 games this year.

You listed two possible outcomes from putting Webb in - everything stays the same or things get better. What about the third possibility - things get worse. And no smart ass comments about how things can't get worse because we all know that they can.

Yeah, I suppose we could have a game with 40 yards passing and not 46.

Look at Cambell's play when he came in for Cutler. Things can get a LOT worse. What message are you sending to the team then? "Hey guys - I really don't give a shit about you or your careers, I just want to see what happens with a different QB... maybe we'll win, maybe we won't..." That is a great way to lose your locker room.

Let me point out that at this point Ponder is no Cutler. Maybe pick a better comparison. Look at what happened in SF when they went from Smith to Kaepernick.

You and I only have games to evaluate Webb and how he interacts with the other players. The coaches also have practices. Before they do anything like swapping starting QBs "just to see what happens" they will start installing Webb in with more of the starter packages. Honestly, I would be surprised if they haven't already. They can use that additional time to evaluate him and how he works with the other players without risking the season or other players futures. If they haven't seen anything that would make them comfortable with making the switch, why on earth would they do it anyway?

Hopefully they see enough in Webb to be confident he can run the offense if Ponder is injured. If not, maybe they should have gotten someone other than Webb as the backup. Or are you saying they are so incompetent that they could see webb every day in practice and miss the fact that he might not be good enough to play at this level?

Finally, we need to keep in mind that we aren't out of the playoff picture yet. Yes, it is a long shot, but while we are still in the hunt (and right now we are solidly in the hunt) we need to do everything possible to win. Swapping out your starting QB just to see what happens is a sign of desperation, and NOT something you do until you are eliminated from the playoffs. Putting in Webb now would be giving up on the season.

Well, sub 50 yard passing games by the QB are going to do nothing for us in the playoffs anyway.

And it isn't just to see what happens. It is to see if changing one player changes the dynamics of the team in a positive way. If it does great, if it doesn't then you know next year you also need to find another backup QB.

Originally Posted by NodakPaul

Well, no he didn't. He was 20/29 for 69% against the Steelers, so no, he didn't pass 69%. And that was the closest he ever came. But to be honest, I was referring to the time he played for the Vikings... you know, the time that is actually relevant to this discussion.

Well yes he did. I may be wrong, but I do believe 29 pass attempts is greater than 25 pass attempts.

Maybe you need to re-read what you originally posted.

Originally Posted by NodakPaul

Actually no, TJack never had a game like Ponder did against Detroit. In fact, TJack has never passed 69% when attempting 25 or more passes.

As for when he played for the Vikings he did have a game where he attempted 24 (1 short of 25) for I believe 75%.