Official Vikings vs. Bears postgame discussion

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Originally Posted by NodakPaul

I wish you would get over being so butt hurt over Jackson. There are just as many fans here clamoring to bench Ponder as there were for Jackson. Fact. And there were just as many fans (including you) who blamed the OL, WRs, playcalling, etc... Also Fact. It's over Johnny...

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My butt isn't hurt over it. Just replying honestly to the post. There are nowhere near the amount of fans here who want to bench Ponder. Only a handful. When Jackson was playing, those fans were chomping at the bit for Jackson to make a mistake & when he did, a thread bashing him for it was started. 2 years after he's gone, there's still threads being posted bashing him. There were only a handful of people here who wanted to see Jackson be allowed to finish the year in 2008. The majority wanted him gone & there were a lot more active members here in 2008 than there are now.

Not sure what you mean about it's over Johnny. Yep, I blamed part of the problem on poor receivers, play calling , OL play & coaching when Jackson played. I blamed part of the problem on poor receivers, play calling, OL play & coaching with Ponder playing too. So what's your point? Are you not seeing those posts or just ignoring them?

I'm one of the ones here who has criticized our entire receiving corp with the exception of Harvin, K-Rudd & Wright, criticized Frazier & Musgrave for poor game planning/calls, poor blocking & have stood fast on several occasions that Ponder should not be benched & should start the remainder of the year.

The only thing that Webb would prove at this point in the season is that if he started & was finding targets & hitting them (beyond 5 yards of the LOS) is that receivers were indeed getting open & Ponder wasn't finding them. I don't think putting in a new QB would miraculously make our receivers start getting open.

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Originally Posted by Purple Floyd

Yes. And at this point I am not convinced that Ponder is going to be that guy. I am also not convinced Webb is or hyphen man for that matter. What I do know is you will never really know if you keep doing the same thing and not trying something different if it isn't working.

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I don't disagree. But now isn't the right time to try something different.

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Originally Posted by Purple Floyd

I don't know if he is. I am not at practice every day to see what he has been doing or how his progress has improved, but being that they have Webb on the roster as the number 2 guy and didn't look to bring in anyone better then I will take the coaches action as an indication he can do what they need them to if asked. If you don't feel he can come in and run the offense then maybe you should question their judgement.

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Webb is a great backup. When he comes in to relieve a starter he will excel because his style of play is very different from that of a traditional QB. If teams prepare for him as a starter, he does not do very well. In a league where QBs are at a premium, a good back up is someone you like to hold on to, even if he is only a short term solution.

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Originally Posted by Purple Floyd

Just to see what happens? That is ridiculous. They have a guy as a backup that they have determined is capable of running the offense if Ponder goes down. If he can do that then he is capable enough to put out there to see if he can improve the production.

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See me previous comment about Webb's ability to run the offense.

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Originally Posted by Purple Floyd

I am sure harvin is shaking in his boots to think the coaches might replace a QB that had less than 70 yards passing in 2 games this year.

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Harvin has shown us that he doesn't want to stick around if the team isn't doing everything it can to win. We are 6-5 and well on the bubble for playoffs. Replacing the starting QB at this point is giving up, and I doubt that would fly with Harvin or many of the other players in the locker room.

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Originally Posted by Purple Floyd

Yeah, I suppose we could have a game with 40 yards passing and not 46.

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What game are you talking about? Ponder has never had a 46 yard passing game. He has had two games under 100 yards - 63 and 58. And yes, he sucked in those games. However, his average this year is 198 yards per game with a 63.5% completion percentage, 14 TDs and 9 INTs.

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Originally Posted by Purple Floyd

Let me point out that at this point Ponder is no Cutler. Maybe pick a better comparison. Look at what happened in SF when they went from Smith to Kaepernick.

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And Webb is no Kaepernick.

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Originally Posted by Purple Floyd

Hopefully they see enough in Webb to be confident he can run the offense if Ponder is injured. If not, maybe they should have gotten someone other than Webb as the backup. Or are you saying they are so incompetent that they could see webb every day in practice and miss the fact that he might not be good enough to play at this level?

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Again reference my previous.

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Originally Posted by Purple Floyd

Well, sub 50 yard passing games by the QB are going to do nothing for us in the playoffs anyway.

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What games are you talking about man? Ponder has not had a sub 50 yard game... Again, he is averaging 198+ yards per game this year.

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Originally Posted by Purple Floyd

And it isn't just to see what happens. It is to see if changing one player changes the dynamics of the team in a positive way. If it does great, if it doesn't then you know next year you also need to find another backup QB.

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Agreed, and if we are eliminated from playoff contention, or even realistically out of it, then I wouldn't argue a QB swap. I think it would be a mistake, but at that point it probably wouldn't hurt. This is NOT the time for it though. We aren't Philly - we shouldn't be having these conversations yet.

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Originally Posted by singersp

My butt isn't hurt over it. Just replying honestly to the post. There are nowhere near the amount of fans here who want to bench Ponder. Only a handful. When Jackson was playing, those fans were chomping at the bit for Jackson to make a mistake & when he did, a thread bashing him for it was started. 2 years after he's gone, there's still threads being posted bashing him. There were only a handful of people here who wanted to see Jackson be allowed to finish the year in 2008. The majority wanted him gone & there were a lot more active members here in 2008 than there are now.

Not sure what you mean about it's over Johnny. Yep, I blamed part of the problem on poor receivers, play calling , OL play & coaching when Jackson played. I blamed part of the problem on poor receivers, play calling, OL play & coaching with Ponder playing too. So what's your point? Are you not seeing those posts or just ignoring them?

I'm one of the ones here who has criticized our entire receiving corp with the exception of Harvin, K-Rudd & Wright, criticized Frazier & Musgrave for poor game planning/calls, poor blocking & have stood fast on several occasions that Ponder should not be benched & should start the remainder of the year.

The only thing that Webb would prove at this point in the season is that if he started & was finding targets & hitting them (beyond 5 yards of the LOS) is that receivers were indeed getting open & Ponder wasn't finding them. I don't think putting in a new QB would miraculously make our receivers start getting open.

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Why is it important to you that every athlete is treated by your standards equally by the fans? Isn't the point of these boards to express your opinions about the Vikings, whether they follow what you perceive as the same set of standards or not.

Either you believe in Ponder or you don't. Whatever happened with TJack should have no relevance. Either you believe Ponder should get more time behind center or you don't. Tjack and how people felt about him should have no relevance. If one person bailed on Tjack early but see something in Ponder that wants them to give them more time, why is that so hard for you to take in?

I think the thing you struggle with the most, is that you want everyone to look at the game the same way that you do and struggle when they don't.

Look beyond the stats and watch the player. Make your opinion on the player and go with it. Speaking of which, what is your opinion on Ponder? I know you want him to finish out the year, but where do you fall on his chances of making it as a long term starter for the Vikings?

1) No chance, the guy just doesn't have what it takes.
2) I've seen some things I like and need more time to decide.
3) I think he has a good chance of being the franchise guy we are looking for.
4) I have no opinion at all, since I am merely a fan, I prefer to leave those decisions up to the coaching staff.

If you fall into #1, then you should be calling for him to be benched right now. Since you're not, I have to assume that you are in #2 or #4, but your posts do everything you can to point out his deficiencies, so hard to get a read from you. Your posts about Ponder seem to only relate to TJack comparisons. How about giving us your thoughts on Ponder without the comparisons.

[QUOTE=NodakPaul;1131982


Webb is a great backup. When he comes in to relieve a starter he will excel because his style of play is very different from that of a traditional QB.

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Well, why will he excel? Is it because he is a running back and finds the holes or is it because he is making WR's better by getting them the ball? That is the thing I was talking about. If he does make the rest of the team look better then it helps the evaluation process of those players and my point it reinforced.

As far as his yards per game average, if you are happy with the sub 70 yard passing games then by all means sit back and enjoy. And no where did i say I was calling for anything to be done immediately. I do, however feel if the coaches think it is time that i would be fine with that rather than just keeping him on the field for all 16 games and then going into next year without knowing how a change in QB's is going to make the rest of the offense look.

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Originally Posted by Purple Floyd

Well, why will he excel? Is it because he is a running back and finds the holes or is it because he is making WR's better by getting them the ball? That is the thing I was talking about. If he does make the rest of the team look better then it helps the evaluation process of those players and my point it reinforced.

As far as his yards per game average, if you are happy with the sub 70 yard passing games then by all means sit back and enjoy. And no where did i say I was calling for anything to be done immediately. I do, however feel if the coaches think it is time that i would be fine with that rather than just keeping him on the field for all 16 games and then going into next year without knowing how a change in QB's is going to make the rest of the offense look.

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Fair questions. I think that Webb excels primarily because he is so mobile. While he does have a hell of an arm, his accuracy, especially deep, is pretty bad. Certainly worse than Ponders. If I was a DC prepping for Webb, I would go to a single safety look and spy the QB the whole time. Obviously that is a lot different than what we would normally see - so when Webb comes in relief it takes the defenses a little while to adjust.

And no, I am not happy with sub 70 passing games - in fact I believe I said that Ponder sucked during those games. But you are acting like that is every game, and not just 2 out of the 11 we have played. I am happier with 200+ yard passing games, which is what we see more often out of Ponder.

In the end I agree with you. If the coaches decided that it is time to pull Ponder, I won't be upset. They have a bigger body of work than I do to evaluate both him and Webb and make that decision. Similarly, I am not going to get worked up by the coaching staff's decision to continue to start Ponder. Some people here are acting like Ponder can barely flick a booger without getting it picked off, and that is more than a bit ridiculous. I think that everything we have seen from Ponder so far this season - both the good and the bad - warrants keeping him in as starter... for now.

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Originally Posted by singersp

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Originally Posted by vikinggreg

I still don't understand how Jackson keeps popping up like he was unfairly treated around here when he's in his 7th season, currently an inactive 3rd sting qb running the Bills scout team behind 2 7th round drafted qb's, the guys career is currently in a coma and he's not here

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I think it has more to do with the way the two were treated differently. For instance, many fans here claimed Jackson had more than enough starts & didn't need any more chances & blaming drops by receivers, blaming poor receiving corps, blaming coaching/play calling & blaming a poor OL were nothing more than excuses.

Yet 4 years later, with Ponder having more starts than Jackson did, fans are claiming Ponder hasn't had enough starts, he needs more chances & are blaming drops by receivers, blaming poor receiving corps, blaming coaching/play calling & blaming a poor OL & calling those valid reasons for it. Not to mention, all Ponder's starts have been in succession & you don't hear how AD is carrying this team to any of our wins.

Both look bad. One is just worse than the other.

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Exactly!!!!

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Originally Posted by singersp

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Originally Posted by NodakPaul

Well, no he didn't. He was 20/29 for 69% against the Steelers, so no, he didn't pass 69%. And that was the closest he ever came. But to be honest, I was referring to the time he played for the Vikings... you know, the time that is actually relevant to this discussion.

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Well yes he did. I may be wrong, but I do believe 29 pass attempts is greater than 25 pass attempts.

Maybe you need to re-read what you originally posted.

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Originally Posted by NodakPaul

Actually no, TJack never had a game like Ponder did against Detroit. In fact, TJack has never passed 69% when attempting 25 or more passes. ;)

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As for when he played for the Vikings he did have a game where he attempted 24 (1 short of 25) for I believe 75%.

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So my original point is valid. Ponder has had more time than TJoke and has not done any better. I have seen enough. I ignored the talk about him not having the arm for the NFL. The scouts were right. I am willing to let him ride out the year but we better bring in some competition next year.

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Originally Posted by marstc09

So my original point is valid. Ponder has had more time than TJoke and has not done any better. I have seen enough. I ignored the talk about him not having the arm for the NFL. The scouts were right. I am willing to let him ride out the year but we better bring in some competition next year.

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I agree 100%.

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Originally Posted by NodakPaul

Webb is a great backup. When he comes in to relieve a starter he will excel because his style of play is very different from that of a traditional QB. If teams prepare for him as a starter, he does not do very well. In a league where QBs are at a premium, a good back up is someone you like to hold on to, even if he is only a short term solution.

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You continually make that statement, yet Webb has only started 2 games where he has played significant time during those games. He listed as having started a 3rd time, but Ponder started & played the whole game & Webb threw 1 pass in a wildcat play which he completed.

Of those two starts, Webb won 1 game & lost the other & in those two games completed 65.4% & 62.5% of his passes. 1 Loss out of 2 starts hardly seems like a decent sample size to base that kind of statement from. Especially coming from a guy who's stating Ponder needs 2 years of starts before he can be judged. Sorry, but two starts isn't adequate time given the fact we know he can come off the bench & play.

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Originally Posted by tastywaves

Why is it important to you that every athlete is treated by your standards equally by the fans? Isn't the point of these boards to express your opinions about the Vikings, whether they follow what you perceive as the same set of standards or not.

Either you believe in Ponder or you don't. Whatever happened with TJack should have no relevance. Either you believe Ponder should get more time behind center or you don't. Tjack and how people felt about him should have no relevance. If one person bailed on Tjack early but see something in Ponder that wants them to give them more time, why is that so hard for you to take in?

I think the thing you struggle with the most, is that you want everyone to look at the game the same way that you do and struggle when they don't.

Look beyond the stats and watch the player. Make your opinion on the player and go with it. Speaking of which, what is your opinion on Ponder? I know you want him to finish out the year, but where do you fall on his chances of making it as a long term starter for the Vikings?

1) No chance, the guy just doesn't have what it takes.
2) I've seen some things I like and need more time to decide.
3) I think he has a good chance of being the franchise guy we are looking for.
4) I have no opinion at all, since I am merely a fan, I prefer to leave those decisions up to the coaching staff.

If you fall into #1, then you should be calling for him to be benched right now. Since you're not, I have to assume that you are in #2 or #4, but your posts do everything you can to point out his deficiencies, so hard to get a read from you. Your posts about Ponder seem to only relate to TJack comparisons. How about giving us your thoughts on Ponder without the comparisons.

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I do expect fans to at least be somewhat similar in their standards rather than than differ so greatly from one QB to the next. I don't expect fans to claim they only need to see 2 games to rule them a bust or back up at best & then demand they need to see 30+ out of another & claim maybe they're just young & starting off slow. Lets not forget those same 2 starts are behind the same starters on the OL & receiving corp that was blamed for another QB's failure to succeed.

I don't expect fans to claim a QB sucks because he can't take the team on his back & overcome bad receiving corps & a bad OL & to blame the latter is making excuses for bad QB play, but then claim another QB's play is due to bad receiving corps & a bad OL, it's not fair to judge him based on those reasons & he needs more time behind a good receiving corp & a good OL before a decision can be made.

If they are going to state certain reasons hold no validity for poor/mediocre play & are mere excuses, then I expect them to apply that same claim to all players rather than make the claim that they are valid reasons for a player they like.

My opinion on Ponder is I've seen things I like & things I don't. Just like Jackson, he'll do things that make you a believer in him & then turn right around & disappoint you. That's what makes it such a tough call. Will he or won't he?

I love his "take charge" attitude, but am growing weary of his multitude of LOS passes & 5 yard dumps. Is that the play that was called or is it he isn't looking or able to find open receivers or is hesitant to throw due to coverage. At first I was believing it was because of our receiving corp, but after reading Harvin stating film showed receivers are getting open but not being thrown to, I question QB play more.

Outside of 10 yards I don't have a lot of confidence in his passing & judging by our opponents, they don't either. Sometimes he's spot on, other times way off. If the ball is 5 yards off target, it really doesn't matter how good that receivers hands are.

He also tends to hold on to the ball to long.

We are facing some tough opponents so it will give him an opportunity to show us what he can do or can't do.

You also can't simply state you either believe in Ponder or you don't, Several fans like me are on the fence & could go either way.

Many fans have said they want to continually see progress out of a young player. With Ponder, 21 games in, I don't see hardly any progress, if any from game 1 of the season. The Detroit game with him passing to 9 different receivers gave me hope, but last week, even minus the drops, I was disappointed.