The Official Marrdro Tries To Help Thread

[i_bleed_purple]

What happened to the tittle thread?

Methinks Infidel cried to a mod to change it.

[ultravikingfan]

Infidel must be sensitive when the ball is tossed onto his side of the court.

Maybe he should keep that in mind.

[i_bleed_purple]

That would be the subtle way of saying he's on his last legs.

[singersp]

I've been picking on the Infidel cause he didn't know the difference between Joe Webb and Tarvaris Jackson.

He doesn't know the difference between a mobile QB & one that can roll out either.

On a side note. Looks like I missed a good "Tittle" thread. WTF was that all about?

[Marrdro]

The heart of our team is the 2006 and 2007 draft classes (and FA's). The soul of our team is the 2008 and 2009 draft classes (and FA's).

At the end of this year our heart is going to walk out the door, mostly because (my opinion) they are mad that the staff didn't take care of them going into this year and it won't matter how much they are offered.

Sure a few will stay, but the predominance of them will leave.

This exodus will force the staff to play rooks drafted in 2011 (like we saw in 91 and 06). In short, it doens't mean our 2008, 2009 and 2011 rooks aren't good, it just means that they won't be as good as the 006/07 guys based on experience alone and we the fans will be subjected to watching those cats learn a bit on the field instead on the bench like they should be doing.

Not sure about you, but when I look at the possibility of that big of a turnover happening at key positions, I consider that rebuilding.

Adding one or two starters, thats tweeking.

The real deal is that we have not had a great deal of success in the depth of the draft classes. Actually, the year you have harped on the most ( Foley draft) has had the best showing of them all.


2006: The Foley draft-

Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 17 Chad Greenway LB Iowa
2 48 Cedric Griffin CB Texas
2 51 Ryan Cook C New Mexico
2 64 Tarvaris Jackson QB Alabama State
4 127 Ray Edwards DE Purdue
5 149 Greg Blue DB Georgia


Out of those 6 we still have 5 on the roster. Greenway is having a Pro Bowl year but Griff started out slow and then blew his knee just when it looked like he was emerging, then did it again this year. Probably not much of a chance that he gets back to being a long term starter of any quality after both knees are reconstructed and 2 years off doing rehab but hopefully he can do something.

TJ- Possible back up for some team in the league.
Cook- Will be gone next year more than likely but if he sticks around is a lower level backup.
Edwards- He will be gone but Griffin will replace him or else Robison.

So because they will be gone you don't consider them good picks?

TJ will not be a backup. He will eventually start. By the way, he has a winning record as a QB on a team that was rebuilding when he got most of his starts.

Cooks value should be obvious. What would we have done without him this year? Plug in a kid with a years experience instead of a guy who has 5 years experience, 2 of which he started. Wow.

Ray has been in the top 5 in QB pressures on his first contract. Now that he is getting up there in reps and experience we are seeing the light come on and now we're gonna let him walk. LOL.

Sure, we'll plug in Everson but won't we see him go through the same growing pains?

2007- The Spielman inaugural draft

2007 Draft
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 7 Adrian Peterson RB Oklahoma
2 44 Sidney Rice WR South Carolina
3 72 Marcus McCauley CB Fresno State
4 102 Brian Robison DE Texas
5 146 Aundrae Allison WR East Carolina
6 176 Rufus Alexander LB Oklahoma
7 217 Tyler Thigpen QB Coastal Carolina
7 233 Chandler Williams WR Florida International

Out of 8 players we have:

Peterson - Outstanding.
Rice- had one good year but can't stay healthy.
Mccauley- Done
Robison- May start next year. Great backup to Allen.
Allison- Done
Alexander-Done
Thigpen- In Miami
Williams- Done

So out of 8 picks we got one starter, one oft injured starter and one potential starter but then it drops off to nothing. That is the lack of depth that is the problem. Had we hit on 6 of those picks we would have had more positions solidified and that is the thing that keeps the successful teams going year after year.

Such a negative spin on them. Maybe you expect to much out of 5th, 6th and 7th round draft picks.

2008 Draft
2008 - Minnesota Vikings
Rd Sel # Player Position School
2 43 Tyrell Johnson FS Arkansas State
5 137 John David Booty QB USC
5 152 Letroy Guion DT Florida State
6 187 John Sullivan C Notre Dame
6 193 Jaymar Johnson WR Jackson State

We gave up the 1 to get Jared Allen
Johnson- Just isn't going to cut it. Doesn't even give us reliable depth.
Booty- Gone. Didn't fit the system. Made for some great anatomical references though.
Guion- Probably takes over for pat W next year.
Sully- Serviceable backup thrust into a starting center role.
Johnson- Gone

So that draft yielded one FA starter who takes a huge hit to the cap, one marginal starting ol, a potential DL starter and that is it. Once again we are a net loss on this class which will require either playing a young player and developing on the fly or spending FA dollars we should be using to retain key players. Not a good draft by the ol Chiller and a reason he isn't around any more.

A net loss. Just cause they are all not starters? Wow. Isn't a kid allowed to develop on the sideline.

Again, I think you are pretty harsh on your grading criteria.

2009 - Minnesota Vikings
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 22 Percy Harvin WR Florida
2 54 Phil Loadholt T Oklahoma
3 86 Asher Allen DB Georgia
5 150 Jasper Brinkley LB South Carolina
7 231 Jamarca Sanford DB Mississippi

Harvin- Great pick but so far has been inconsistent and hard to develop a rhythm due to health problems. He missed practice again today.

Loadholt- Hard to say. Should be a serviceable starter for some time on OL. Not outstanding but good if he keeps the penalties down. having Chilly gone should help that.

Allen- Starting but should be a reserve or St at best.

Brinkley- Might start next year.

Sanford- Nothing.

One great player when he is feeling good, one serviceable OL and one potential starter but then again it drops off and we don't get depth that is reliable or able to fill in without a big drop off in talent

.
LOL, you notice how the number of draft picks keeps going down as they target specific players.

2010:

Rd Player Pos

2 cook CB
2 gerhart RB
4 griffin DE
5 DeGeare OT
5 Triplett LB
6 Webb QB

Cook should be good but is having a rough start. Hopefully he can stay healthy and develop but right now he is starting and has been a liability.

gerhart- Will be a backup for year.

Griffin- Will probably start next year

Degeare- Nothing.

Triplett- Gone

Webb- Not much of a chance of anything.

Possibly an average draft. 3 players have a shot at starting or seeing action for a long time but each could also flop out. 2 are in no way going to contribute and one is a long shot hail mary. Once again the bottom of the roster not producing the depth that we need to sustain a competitive roster.

Tha, my friend, and not Chillers departure will be the reason why we either stay competitive or need to rebuild. Finding players in the mid-late rounds that end up being long term starters is what keeps a team in contention year over year.

I think you expect way to much.

Take Sanford for instance. You say nothing. What do you expect out of him? NFL ready coming out? Hell, if that was the case then we don't need to resign Vets. We can just go ahead and draft players each year. Sign them to a rook contract and let the Vets walk.

Heres another way to look at it. As a team rebuilds, each and every year, there is less and less chance for a rook to make the roster and be a starter...

So far, what you showed me is that the 2007 classes late round picks didn't work out. Other than that alot of our backups and ST'rs are comprised of rookies making the team and when asked, stepping up and starting if they have to.

When that is asked of them, and they make a few gaffs, a unforgiving fan base then hacks on them cause they aren't playing at the league level or throw out accusations that the coaching staff can't turn them into instant starters right away.

Comeon my friend. It doens't work that way.

[singersp]

[quote="Marrdro" #1080989]

The heart of our team is the 2006 and 2007 draft classes (and FA's). The soul of our team is the 2008 and 2009 draft classes (and FA's).

At the end of this year our heart is going to walk out the door, mostly because (my opinion) they are mad that the staff didn't take care of them going into this year and it won't matter how much they are offered.

Sure a few will stay, but the predominance of them will leave.

This exodus will force the staff to play rooks drafted in 2011 (like we saw in 91 and 06). In short, it doens't mean our 2008, 2009 and 2011 rooks aren't good, it just means that they won't be as good as the 006/07 guys based on experience alone and we the fans will be subjected to watching those cats learn a bit on the field instead on the bench like they should be doing.

Not sure about you, but when I look at the possibility of that big of a turnover happening at key positions, I consider that rebuilding.

Adding one or two starters, thats tweeking.

The real deal is that we have not had a great deal of success in the depth of the draft classes. Actually, the year you have harped on the most ( Foley draft) has had the best showing of them all.


2006: The Foley draft-

Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 17 Chad Greenway LB Iowa
2 48 Cedric Griffin CB Texas
2 51 Ryan Cook C New Mexico
2 64 Tarvaris Jackson QB Alabama State
4 127 Ray Edwards DE Purdue
5 149 Greg Blue DB Georgia


Out of those 6 we still have 5 on the roster. Greenway is having a Pro Bowl year but Griff started out slow and then blew his knee just when it looked like he was emerging, then did it again this year. Probably not much of a chance that he gets back to being a long term starter of any quality after both knees are reconstructed and 2 years off doing rehab but hopefully he can do something.

TJ- Possible back up for some team in the league.
Cook- Will be gone next year more than likely but if he sticks around is a lower level backup.
Edwards- He will be gone but Griffin will replace him or else Robison.

So because they will be gone you don't consider them good picks?

TJ will not be a backup. He will eventually start. By the way, he has a winning record as a QB on a team that was rebuilding when he got most of his starts.

Cooks value should be obvious. What would we have done without him this year? Plug in a kid with a years experience instead of a guy who has 5 years experience, 2 of which he started. Wow.

Ray has been in the top 5 in QB pressures on his first contract. Now that he is getting up there in reps and experience we are seeing the light come on and now we're gonna let him walk. LOL.

Sure, we'll plug in Everson but won't we see him go through the same growing pains?

2007- The Spielman inaugural draft

2007 Draft
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 7 Adrian Peterson RB Oklahoma
2 44 Sidney Rice WR South Carolina
3 72 Marcus McCauley CB Fresno State
4 102 Brian Robison DE Texas
5 146 Aundrae Allison WR East Carolina
6 176 Rufus Alexander LB Oklahoma
7 217 Tyler Thigpen QB Coastal Carolina
7 233 Chandler Williams WR Florida International

Out of 8 players we have:

Peterson - Outstanding.
Rice- had one good year but can't stay healthy.
Mccauley- Done
Robison- May start next year. Great backup to Allen.
Allison- Done
Alexander-Done
Thigpen- In Miami
Williams- Done

So out of 8 picks we got one starter, one oft injured starter and one potential starter but then it drops off to nothing. That is the lack of depth that is the problem. Had we hit on 6 of those picks we would have had more positions solidified and that is the thing that keeps the successful teams going year after year.

Such a negative spin on them. Maybe you expect to much out of 5th, 6th and 7th round draft picks.

2008 Draft
2008 - Minnesota Vikings
Rd Sel # Player Position School
2 43 Tyrell Johnson FS Arkansas State
5 137 John David Booty QB USC
5 152 Letroy Guion DT Florida State
6 187 John Sullivan C Notre Dame
6 193 Jaymar Johnson WR Jackson State

We gave up the 1 to get Jared Allen
Johnson- Just isn't going to cut it. Doesn't even give us reliable depth.
Booty- Gone. Didn't fit the system. Made for some great anatomical references though.
Guion- Probably takes over for pat W next year.
Sully- Serviceable backup thrust into a starting center role.
Johnson- Gone

So that draft yielded one FA starter who takes a huge hit to the cap, one marginal starting ol, a potential DL starter and that is it. Once again we are a net loss on this class which will require either playing a young player and developing on the fly or spending FA dollars we should be using to retain key players. Not a good draft by the ol Chiller and a reason he isn't around any more.

A net loss. Just cause they are all not starters? Wow. Isn't a kid allowed to develop on the sideline.

Again, I think you are pretty harsh on your grading criteria.

2009 - Minnesota Vikings
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 22 Percy Harvin WR Florida
2 54 Phil Loadholt T Oklahoma
3 86 Asher Allen DB Georgia
5 150 Jasper Brinkley LB South Carolina
7 231 Jamarca Sanford DB Mississippi

Harvin- Great pick but so far has been inconsistent and hard to develop a rhythm due to health problems. He missed practice again today.

Loadholt- Hard to say. Should be a serviceable starter for some time on OL. Not outstanding but good if he keeps the penalties down. having Chilly gone should help that.

Allen- Starting but should be a reserve or St at best.

Brinkley- Might start next year.

Sanford- Nothing.

One great player when he is feeling good, one serviceable OL and one potential starter but then again it drops off and we don't get depth that is reliable or able to fill in without a big drop off in talent

.
LOL, you notice how the number of draft picks keeps going down as they target specific players.

2010:

Rd Player Pos

2 cook CB
2 gerhart RB
4 griffin DE
5 DeGeare OT
5 Triplett LB
6 Webb QB

Cook should be good but is having a rough start. Hopefully he can stay healthy and develop but right now he is starting and has been a liability.

gerhart- Will be a backup for year.

Griffin- Will probably start next year

Degeare- Nothing.

Triplett- Gone

Webb- Not much of a chance of anything.

Possibly an average draft. 3 players have a shot at starting or seeing action for a long time but each could also flop out. 2 are in no way going to contribute and one is a long shot hail mary. Once again the bottom of the roster not producing the depth that we need to sustain a competitive roster.

Tha, my friend, and not Chillers departure will be the reason why we either stay competitive or need to rebuild. Finding players in the mid-late rounds that end up being long term starters is what keeps a team in contention year over year.[/quote]
I think you expect way to much.

Take Sanford for instance. You say nothing. What do you expect out of him? NFL ready coming out? Hell, if that was the case then we don't need to resign Vets. We can just go ahead and draft players each year. Sign them to a rook contract and let the Vets walk.

Heres another way to look at it. As a team rebuilds, each and every year, there is less and less chance for a rook to make the roster and be a starter...

So far, what you showed me is that the 2007 classes late round picks didn't work out. Other than that alot of our backups and ST'rs are comprised of rookies making the team and when asked, stepping up and starting if they have to.

When that is asked of them, and they make a few gaffs, a unforgiving fan base then hacks on them cause they aren't playing at the league level or throw out accusations that the coaching staff can't turn them into instant starters right away.

Comeon my friend. It doens't work that way.

Staing that we will either stay competitive or need to rebuild covers your ass either way.

It's kind of like saying, "Either we win this Sunday or else we will lose"

[Marrdro]

"Marrdro" #1080750]
I for one think that the lack of aggression (for both the staff and QB) can be directly tied to TJ's readiness. It isn't like he came from a school that ran a complicated passing attack. Heck, the school he came from is/was known for running and not passing.

And yet they moved up the draft board to get him, declared him the unchallenged starter in his second and third year and backed him up with washed up talent. And you wonder why Childress is unemployed.:laugh:

I need to go and bump the QB thread I did recently to remind you what happened with that draft class.

Did we move up? Sure we did, but if we wouldn't have he wouldn't have been there when our next pick came around and then we would have been left with nothing to develop.

Please give atleast a couple three as I don't understand your point here

.

What part of either proficient or productive do you not understand? It would help me to help you if you could let me know but I'll try a few.:

Take the Colts game in 2008 you have been bringing up. They played hard, the defense played both proficiently and productively which lead to giving the offense great field position, turnovers and I think Winfield might have even scored a defensive TD. The offense also played hard but they were not productive or proficient. Even though they were given a short field to play on and turnovers that they should have turned into TD's, they would get to FG range and bog down.The lack of productivity led to only Fg's instead of TD's and that allowed the Colts to hang on until they were able to rally in the 4th and win a game they had no business winning.

Hopefully this will add some clarity. If not there is nothing else I can post that will make a difference.:laugh:

Your still loosing me. I am tracking with the whole production point but am still struggling with the "Efficiency" thing.

To me, your efficient when you get the same result with less effort. If the would have been more effecient they would have scored a FG with less effort.

Maybe you mean something more along the lines of "Better Execution" or "More Consistent".

If they would have executed better, they would have been more consistent and would have increase productivity.

Something like that I can understand. Of course, thats not what your saying when you use "Effecient".

2 that you mention came from this year. Remember, I believe alot of our players aren't playing up to par (Rice hasn't even played for most of the season) as they are trying to protect themselves for thier next contract.

Well, since we are in the season it was easy to pick out 2 recent ones. Players who are up for a contract do not under perform to save themselves- They play hard to highlight themselves. Rice is somewhat different because he was coming back from an injury and playing before you are completely healed increases your risk of re-injury.

Rice is not different. He is a prime example. You don't think that he wasn't advised by his agent as to when to have the surgery?

Edwards is another one to watch. What the heck is a "Near High Ankle Sprain". Truth of the matter is, I am suprised Ray played at all this year, especially since he was the most vocal about it.

And to your last sentence. How did you get that? The Giants game was a debacle because the Giants either were listening in on our play calling or, like all teams did back then, they had tape of our practice.

Proof? Link?

I will go see if I can find the old articles. Can't believe you forgot about the accusations that were levied against the Giants by the Vikes organization.

They (Vikes) basically said that the Giants were listening in on the play calling.

Again, the HC doesn't have anything to do with it. I really seem to have messed up as I tried to make my point here.

Could be.

Atleast I'm willing to admit I might be in error. :P

It has everything to do with what I believe our players are going to do at the end of the year and what they are doing right now to make sure that they can do it as 100% healthy FA's.

I will throw the BS card at this one because you keep throwing it out there and it is absolutely wrong. Players playing for a bigger contract don't hold back, they put together the best performance they can because only the top guys get the real big pay days. Those that don't make an impact end up signing for what they can and often for teams that they don't want to play for.

Can you give me maybe a couple of guys from last year anywhere in the league that scaled back their play so they didn't get hurt so that they could get a bigger contract? Besides that anyone who has played football knows you are more likely to get hurt when you play cautious than when you play all out.

Pretty hard to give examples. What I can show you is inconsistent play across the league. Teams like the Steelers vs Bills last week. Pats getting thier asses handed to them by the Browns (I think).

That only happens when teams aren't executing and in most instances, when all thier starters are healthy, and you see poor execution, it can be traced to someone not putting out.

Maybe the confusion is coming from the whole "Right/Wrong" goal you seem to be trying to get at. I for one have never ever been put on record during a "Football Discussion". LOL Its an opinion for cripes sake. How can you put someone on record, on a football discussion site for having an opinion.

LMAO.

WOW.

As I told Infidel. Relax, lets just talk football.

Not sure what you are getting at. I am very calm and collected.

Not getting at anything. My lame attempt at humor. Doesn't work for the most part.

I think I addressed this well enough above, but I will expound just to make sure......

I'll be back in a second- Need to make a batch of popcorn for this.:woohoo:

The heart of our team is the 2006 and 2007 draft classes (and FA's). The soul of our team is the 2008 and 2009 draft classes (and FA's).

And that is uniquely different from every other team in the because of what?

At the end of this year our heart is going to walk out the door, mostly because (my opinion) they are mad that the staff didn't take care of them going into this year and it won't matter how much they are offered.

LMAO. Those poor poor players who have been disrespected by the FO because they were (FA's) paid higher than their value when the team brought them in and have generally not lived up to those contracts as indicated by our record this year and who were drafted and not extended before their contract was up going into a year where we don't even know if next season will happen or what the market will be. yeah right:cheer:

Sure a few will stay, but the predominance of them will leave.

You can joke about it if you want, but it doesn't eliminate the possibility that we will see alot of them walk.

But you have been preaching for years that we are building the team to win over the long haul and that Childress was setting the team up to be competitive perpetually. Now all of a sudden the coach is gone and you are saying all of this depth we have on the roster is gone? If what you said before was really happening then what you are saying will happen is not possible because there will still be enough developing talent under contract to fill in for the guys that leave. That is what good staffs do. That being said I do think what you predict about the rebuilding is probably true because all along we did not have the talent you said we did and now it is starting to show, which is a good reason the coach is no longer here.

But my preaching was centered on the idea that the coaching staff would remain intact and that these players would be inked for a follow-on contract. If I am correct, that isn't gonna happen.

We are already seeing players with "Injuries" that might keep them out this week. A RB coach that is going to head for greener pastures.

Players, and thier agents, don't like to see instability. That equates to change, which in turn equates to a change in scheme, which impacts players roles and ability to meet escalators.....etc etc etc.

I hope I'm wrong and that Leslie does a good enough job to win the HC position. That might help stem the flow but in the end, I think the FO pukes made a bad decision this year. Edwards beeeyatching about it early was a indicator that I missed.

This exodus will force the staff to play rooks drafted in 2011 (like we saw in 91 and 06). In short, it doens't mean our 2008, 2009 and 2011 rooks aren't good, it just means that they won't be as good as the 006/07 guys based on experience alone and we the fans will be subjected to watching those cats learn a bit on the field instead on the bench like they should be doing.

The only reason that would happen is if Childress & Co. did not do a good job of drafting and developing the players over the past few years to fill in for the vets that would eventually leave.

What? We have seen nothing but the opposite.

Who stepped in for EJ when he went down? A vet or a player that was BEING developed? Who stepped in for Whinny over the last couple of years? McCauley/Allen etc.

Were did Hussien come from?

Just cause these kids aren't instant starters coming out of college doesn't mean we aren't seeing them develop for cripes sake.

As I said in the other reply........I think you expect to much and grade to high.

Quick question. Lets say for sh!t$ and giggles that we had kept Childress on as the head coach- Do you feel he would have had to rebuild next year due to the way he filled the roster?

I do, but not as bad as its gonna be now. Again, I put alot of blame on the FO pukes for not resigning guys that should have been resigned.

Lets not forget, there have been several instances were players (JA - Dui, Herrera - When he became a US Citizen, PH - Drugs etc) were brought in cause the Chiller went to bat for them. I think those guys will remember those things.

Not sure about you, but when I look at the possibility of that big of a turnover happening at key positions, I consider that rebuilding.

No argument. I have been telling you for some time that we had put together a team that was built to win last year and that after that if we didn't win a SB that it would be a decade before we could even think about getting back there again. It was you who was professing that Chiller was putting together a team that would be competitive every year. So I was right. Although I really wish I was wrong.

If you must go down the "Right/Wrong" tact, you were wrong. Your analysis was based on the loss of Phat Pat, Leber and the Noodle.

If the staff would have resigned thier guys leading up to this season, we would only have to ink the guys that are due this season. Instead, they opted to "Tender" the 2006 class. Now they have the 2006 class, the 2007 class and the FA's that are now due as well.

Not sure why that is so hard to comprehend. Again, must be cause I am articulating it poorly.