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  1. #101
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    Re: Official Game 8 Thoughts and Observations

    "singersp" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    [quote author=Marrdro link=topic=48880.msg860825#msg860825 date=1225733332]
    [quote author=UffDaVikes link=topic=48880.msg860820#msg860820 date=1225733099]
    Winfield has had a good year and has been in the right spot to intercept the ball often enough to get noticed and indicate to the offense that they are better off throwing toward Griffin who last intercepted the ball when? I think it was 2006. If he hasn't had a pick since 2006 and he has had more passes thrown his way than at any other Vikings defender, then that pretty much means he is playing too far off the ball or that he is not reacting or anticipating to the throws being made. IMO the no pick stat is a very telling stat when you consider the amount of balls thrown his direction.
    So with the measure of INT's dictating whether or not a CB plays well in this scheme.......Let me ask a question.

    How would you classify his INT yesterday?
    Skill or blind luck?

    Come on my friend.
    I like Whinny and think he is a excellent fit for this scheme but I do not sit here and believe he is some sort of CB god that can do no wrong.

    Truth be told, yesterdays INT was a result of him being someplace he shouldn't have been and that was up biting on the Play Action fake instead of covering the guy who was wide open deep.

    Good gol 'darnit thing Ray got pressure on that side and the QB couldn't step up to make a good throw.
    Of course, as with Whinny, Ray is getting bad press cause no one recognizes plays like that cause it wasn't a sack.

    Shamefull my friend.
    Shamefull indeed.

    ;D
    Hey, I haven't really been on the Winfield bandwagon either. That said, his play this year has been very good.

    What do I attribute the AW int to yesterday? I attribute it to taking advantage of being in the right place at the right time.

    Back at you, what do you attribute to the fact Griff hasn't had one since 2006,even though he has had more balls thrown his way than any other viking during that time?
    The fact that he is a Cover 2 CB that won't get alot of INT's.

    His job is to keep the play in front of him and tackle the cat preventing huge plays/YAC.

    Of course you might have missed that point I've been trying to make for the last 3 years..... ;D
    Unfortunately though, with the cover 2, when you give up those containment plays time & time again, the opponents keep moving the chains as it only takes 1 or two of those to make a first down.

    Pass rush plays a big part of that, but when you have QB's with a quick drop & release, that defense is easily exploited as is the case when the pass rush isn't there.

    How much of that have we seen in the last 3 years Marr?
    I hear ya my friend, however, yesterday we saw the cover 2 in all its glory.
    Let them move the ball in small chunks until they made a mistake.

    How many times did you think they were gonna score only to be thwarted by the scheme.
    Again, I am not a huge proponent of the Cover 2 and would much rather see a different scheme.

    Don't confuse that I discuss it with supporting it my friend.

    ;D
    [/quote]

    Did you also notice that there was tighter coverage on the receivers yesterday than the normal 5-10 yard cushions?

    [/quote]

    Andre Johnson of the Texans gave credit to our Cover 2 defensive play for pretty much shutting him down yesterday.
    In the Scout.com article he made the following quote:

    Johnson and some other Texans said the Vikings’ Cover-2 defensive concepts kept them from getting too far over the top, and the Vikings also had a physical game plan.

    “They had a guy over top with the defense back. I guess the coach told him, ‘Just beat him up.’ I got thrown down a couple of times, and things like that. They came up with a great game plan and that was basically it,” Johnson said. “Nothing is outside of the rules in the game of football. It is part of the game as sometimes those things happen. When you are coming out and making plays, guys are not going to let them beat you. Like I said, they came out with a great game plan and it worked for them
    I guess when it is played correctly it works!

  2. #102
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    Re: Official Game 8 Thoughts and Observations

    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "bleedpurple" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    Winfield has had a good year and has been in the right spot to intercept the ball often enough to get noticed and indicate to the offense that they are better off throwing toward Griffin who last intercepted the ball when? I think it was 2006. If he hasn't had a pick since 2006 and he has had more passes thrown his way than at any other Vikings defender, then that pretty much means he is playing too far off the ball or that he is not reacting or anticipating to the throws being made. IMO the no pick stat is a very telling stat when you consider the amount of balls thrown his direction.
    So with the measure of INT's dictating whether or not a CB plays well in this scheme.......Let me ask a question.

    How would you classify his INT yesterday?
    Skill or blind luck?

    Come on my friend.
    I like Whinny and think he is a excellent fit for this scheme but I do not sit here and believe he is some sort of CB god that can do no wrong.

    Truth be told, yesterdays INT was a result of him being someplace he shouldn't have been and that was up biting on the Play Action fake instead of covering the guy who was wide open deep.

    Good gol 'darnit thing Ray got pressure on that side and the QB couldn't step up to make a good throw.
    Of course, as with Whinny, Ray is getting bad press cause no one recognizes plays like that cause it wasn't a sack.

    Shamefull my friend.
    Shamefull indeed.

    ;D
    I think it was just a bad throw.. where the QB was being pressured and put too much air under the ball and underthrew him...

    i dont think he was out of position, as that was a full back coming out of the backfield over there and i'm sure he thought he had safety help... actually i think he was quite deep for where he should have been on the field...
    He was definately limping by then from when he was sammmmiched and that had something to do with it but Ray was definately pushing his man into the pocket eliminating the room needed to step into the throw, as to the positioning of Whinny, .......

    Are you kidding me?


    ......He was behind him by 10-15 yards or so and Sharp was up in run support as well.
    The guy was wide open.
    Are you ignoring you're favorite cover 2 diagram and saying that the deep guy was Winfield's responsibility???

    Sharper was out of position. Winfield was covering down low, even though he did bite on the run.

    Ray does deserves credit, but stripping Winny of all credit is ridiculous. He made a play.
    "I hate when threads are destroyed by facts and logic."
    - Prophet


    Thanks Josdin!

  3. #103
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    Re: Official Game 8 Thoughts and Observations

    "V" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "bleedpurple" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    Winfield has had a good year and has been in the right spot to intercept the ball often enough to get noticed and indicate to the offense that they are better off throwing toward Griffin who last intercepted the ball when? I think it was 2006. If he hasn't had a pick since 2006 and he has had more passes thrown his way than at any other Vikings defender, then that pretty much means he is playing too far off the ball or that he is not reacting or anticipating to the throws being made. IMO the no pick stat is a very telling stat when you consider the amount of balls thrown his direction.
    So with the measure of INT's dictating whether or not a CB plays well in this scheme.......Let me ask a question.

    How would you classify his INT yesterday?
    Skill or blind luck?

    Come on my friend.
    I like Whinny and think he is a excellent fit for this scheme but I do not sit here and believe he is some sort of CB god that can do no wrong.

    Truth be told, yesterdays INT was a result of him being someplace he shouldn't have been and that was up biting on the Play Action fake instead of covering the guy who was wide open deep.

    Good gol 'darnit thing Ray got pressure on that side and the QB couldn't step up to make a good throw.
    Of course, as with Whinny, Ray is getting bad press cause no one recognizes plays like that cause it wasn't a sack.

    Shamefull my friend.
    Shamefull indeed.

    ;D
    I think it was just a bad throw.. where the QB was being pressured and put too much air under the ball and underthrew him...

    i dont think he was out of position, as that was a full back coming out of the backfield over there and i'm sure he thought he had safety help... actually i think he was quite deep for where he should have been on the field...
    He was definately limping by then from when he was sammmmiched and that had something to do with it but Ray was definately pushing his man into the pocket eliminating the room needed to step into the throw, as to the positioning of Whinny, .......

    Are you kidding me?


    ......He was behind him by 10-15 yards or so and Sharp was up in run support as well.
    The guy was wide open.
    Are you ignoring you're favorite cover 2 diagram and saying that the deep guy was Winfield's responsibility???

    Sharper was out of position. Winfield was covering down low, even though he did bite on the run.

    Ray does deserves credit, but stripping Winny of all credit is ridiculous. He made a play.
    I can't tell if Sharp was out of position on this one or not.
    I assume for him to be up that close to start with he was part of the run support which would have dictated that the CB stay with his reciever.

    On the replay he started to go with the guy but then chose to close on the play action.
    Again, he bought into the run and left his guy uncovered.

    Now, for the sake of arguement/discussion, if Sharp was supposed to be back there for help, then Sharp is in the wrong which gets me back to the whole discussion and original point, those two cats were not playing well together and the other side was.

    That is the reason they Texans started picking on that side in the second half.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  4. #104
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    Re: Official Game 8 Thoughts and Observations

    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "PurplePeopleEaters" wrote:
    I thought Cedric played a lot better today than in the past few weeks. Remember, he was faced with the daunting task of covering Andre Johnson all day. I remember at one point the camera crew showed how Andre was shut down in the first half and it really showed how well Griffin played in coverage on a few of those downs. Was he perfect? Not in any way. I would love to see us pick up a shutdown corner in the offseason to go opposite Winfield.
    Excellent observation my friend....

    Simply amazing isn't it how once something starts on here is continues to grow.

    Quick question, how many long passes were given up on Ced/M-wills side compared to Whinny's/Sharps side.

    Honestly guys.
    Watch the fricken game.
    How many times did you see Griff give up on his guy and come back and make the tackle on the underneath route or how many times did he blanket one of the best recievers in the league.

    Amazing to me that the Griff haters still don't have a clue. :
    WTF, what game did you watch? They hardly threw it to a WR because NO ONE could cover the TE Daniels or the underneath stuff. How throws were to Johnson? If I was Houston I would have thrown every pass to Andre because Griffin couldnt cover my Grandma. Hes lost out there all the time, then falls on his A$$. And he celebrates every average play he makes like he scored a TD.

    Look at Winfield. not a great cover guy but he makes HUGE plays all the time! Hes great against the run and can tackle anyone. Whens the last time Griffin made a big play?????????? The whole D makes huges plays but never Griffin. And he celebrates more then any of them.

  5. #105
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    Re: Official Game 8 Thoughts and Observations

    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "V" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "bleedpurple" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    [quote author=UffDaVikes link=topic=48880.msg860820#msg860820 date=1225733099]
    Winfield has had a good year and has been in the right spot to intercept the ball often enough to get noticed and indicate to the offense that they are better off throwing toward Griffin who last intercepted the ball when? I think it was 2006. If he hasn't had a pick since 2006 and he has had more passes thrown his way than at any other Vikings defender, then that pretty much means he is playing too far off the ball or that he is not reacting or anticipating to the throws being made. IMO the no pick stat is a very telling stat when you consider the amount of balls thrown his direction.
    So with the measure of INT's dictating whether or not a CB plays well in this scheme.......Let me ask a question.

    How would you classify his INT yesterday?
    Skill or blind luck?

    Come on my friend.
    I like Whinny and think he is a excellent fit for this scheme but I do not sit here and believe he is some sort of CB god that can do no wrong.

    Truth be told, yesterdays INT was a result of him being someplace he shouldn't have been and that was up biting on the Play Action fake instead of covering the guy who was wide open deep.

    Good gol 'darnit thing Ray got pressure on that side and the QB couldn't step up to make a good throw.
    Of course, as with Whinny, Ray is getting bad press cause no one recognizes plays like that cause it wasn't a sack.

    Shamefull my friend.
    Shamefull indeed.

    ;D
    I think it was just a bad throw.. where the QB was being pressured and put too much air under the ball and underthrew him...

    i dont think he was out of position, as that was a full back coming out of the backfield over there and i'm sure he thought he had safety help... actually i think he was quite deep for where he should have been on the field...
    He was definately limping by then from when he was sammmmiched and that had something to do with it but Ray was definately pushing his man into the pocket eliminating the room needed to step into the throw, as to the positioning of Whinny, .......

    Are you kidding me?


    ......He was behind him by 10-15 yards or so and Sharp was up in run support as well.
    The guy was wide open.
    Are you ignoring you're favorite cover 2 diagram and saying that the deep guy was Winfield's responsibility???

    Sharper was out of position. Winfield was covering down low, even though he did bite on the run.

    Ray does deserves credit, but stripping Winny of all credit is ridiculous. He made a play.
    I can't tell if Sharp was out of position on this one or not.
    I assume for him to be up that close to start with he was part of the run support which would have dictated that the CB stay with his reciever.

    On the replay he started to go with the guy but then chose to close on the play action.

    Again, he bought into the run and left his guy uncovered.

    Now, for the sake of arguement/discussion, if Sharp was supposed to be back there for help, then Sharp is in the wrong which gets me back to the whole discussion and original point, those two cats were not playing well together and the other side was.

    That is the reason they Texans started picking on that side in the second half.
    [/quote]

    Just getting you to think a lil bit more before you put Winfield in the "Matt Birk" column on your spreadsheet.

    A grey area for sure and we'll never know the answer. We could easily have been doubling Johnson as we were for most of the game. That means Sharper is now probably playing center field, and Winfield needs to be aware of deeper routes. But if that were true, wouldn't an LB slide into the flats? Did we blitz on that play?
    "I hate when threads are destroyed by facts and logic."
    - Prophet


    Thanks Josdin!

  6. #106
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    Re: Official Game 8 Thoughts and Observations

    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    Winfield has had a good year and has been in the right spot to intercept the ball often enough to get noticed and indicate to the offense that they are better off throwing toward Griffin who last intercepted the ball when? I think it was 2006. If he hasn't had a pick since 2006 and he has had more passes thrown his way than at any other Vikings defender, then that pretty much means he is playing too far off the ball or that he is not reacting or anticipating to the throws being made. IMO the no pick stat is a very telling stat when you consider the amount of balls thrown his direction.
    So with the measure of INT's dictating whether or not a CB plays well in this scheme.......Let me ask a question.

    How would you classify his INT yesterday?
    Skill or blind luck?

    Come on my friend.
    I like Whinny and think he is a excellent fit for this scheme but I do not sit here and believe he is some sort of CB god that can do no wrong.

    Truth be told, yesterdays INT was a result of him being someplace he shouldn't have been and that was up biting on the Play Action fake instead of covering the guy who was wide open deep.

    Good gol 'darnit thing Ray got pressure on that side and the QB couldn't step up to make a good throw.
    Of course, as with Whinny, Ray is getting bad press cause no one recognizes plays like that cause it wasn't a sack.

    Shamefull my friend.
    Shamefull indeed.

    ;D
    Hey, I haven't really been on the Winfield bandwagon either. That said, his play this year has been very good.

    What do I attribute the AW int to yesterday? I attribute it to taking advantage of being in the right place at the right time.

    Back at you, what do you attribute to the fact Griff hasn't had one since 2006,even though he has had more balls thrown his way than any other viking during that time?
    The fact that he is a Cover 2 CB that won't get alot of INT's.

    His job is to keep the play in front of him and tackle the cat preventing huge plays/YAC.

    Of course you might have missed that point I've been trying to make for the last 3 years..... ;D

    I agree he might not get many, but he should get some. He has 2 since the beginning of 2006 and Winny has 7. I am not saying that he should lead the league, just get one on occasion if you are reading and reacting to the routes properly.

  7. #107
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    Re: Official Game 8 Thoughts and Observations

    "CCthebest" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "PurplePeopleEaters" wrote:
    I thought Cedric played a lot better today than in the past few weeks. Remember, he was faced with the daunting task of covering Andre Johnson all day. I remember at one point the camera crew showed how Andre was shut down in the first half and it really showed how well Griffin played in coverage on a few of those downs. Was he perfect? Not in any way. I would love to see us pick up a shutdown corner in the offseason to go opposite Winfield.
    Excellent observation my friend....

    Simply amazing isn't it how once something starts on here is continues to grow.

    Quick question, how many long passes were given up on Ced/M-wills side compared to Whinny's/Sharps side.

    Honestly guys.
    Watch the fricken game.
    How many times did you see Griff give up on his guy and come back and make the tackle on the underneath route or how many times did he blanket one of the best recievers in the league.

    Amazing to me that the Griff haters still don't have a clue. :
    WTF, what game did you watch? They hardly threw it to a WR because NO ONE could cover the TE Daniels or the underneath stuff. How throws were to Johnson? If I was Houston I would have thrown every pass to Andre because Griffin couldnt cover my Grandma. Hes lost out there all the time, then falls on his A$$. And he celebrates every average play he makes like he scored a TD.

    Look at Winfield. not a great cover guy but he makes HUGE plays all the time! Hes great against the run and can tackle anyone. Whens the last time Griffin made a big play?????????? The whole D makes huges plays but never Griffin. And he celebrates more then any of them.
    Define HUGE.

    I watched him make the first 3 tackles my friend which set the tone for the whole day.

    He was coming off his guy repeatedly getting back up to help tackle the TE.
    He blitzed the QB 3 times.

    Again, gets back to your definition of huge.
    Sure he isn't gonna get you alot of INT's. Its because he doesn't have the skill set to do that but he is gonna fill his role in this scheme and not get caught cheating up on the run as we saw Whinny get burned with yesterday a few times.


    I wonder what you guys tone would be if the QB would have made the throw yesterday instead of the lame duck and he would have given up 6 instead of the INT?
    :
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  8. #108
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    Re: Official Game 8 Thoughts and Observations

    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "CCthebest" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "PurplePeopleEaters" wrote:
    I thought Cedric played a lot better today than in the past few weeks. Remember, he was faced with the daunting task of covering Andre Johnson all day. I remember at one point the camera crew showed how Andre was shut down in the first half and it really showed how well Griffin played in coverage on a few of those downs. Was he perfect? Not in any way. I would love to see us pick up a shutdown corner in the offseason to go opposite Winfield.
    Excellent observation my friend....

    Simply amazing isn't it how once something starts on here is continues to grow.

    Quick question, how many long passes were given up on Ced/M-wills side compared to Whinny's/Sharps side.

    Honestly guys.
    Watch the fricken game.
    How many times did you see Griff give up on his guy and come back and make the tackle on the underneath route or how many times did he blanket one of the best recievers in the league.

    Amazing to me that the Griff haters still don't have a clue. :
    WTF, what game did you watch? They hardly threw it to a WR because NO ONE could cover the TE Daniels or the underneath stuff. How throws were to Johnson? If I was Houston I would have thrown every pass to Andre because Griffin couldnt cover my Grandma. Hes lost out there all the time, then falls on his A$$. And he celebrates every average play he makes like he scored a TD.

    Look at Winfield. not a great cover guy but he makes HUGE plays all the time! Hes great against the run and can tackle anyone. Whens the last time Griffin made a big play?????????? The whole D makes huges plays but never Griffin. And he celebrates more then any of them.
    Define HUGE.

    I watched him make the first 3 tackles my friend which set the tone for the whole day.

    He was coming off his guy repeatedly getting back up to help tackle the TE.
    He blitzed the QB 3 times.

    Again, gets back to your definition of huge.
    Sure he isn't gonna get you alot of INT's. Its because he doesn't have the skill set to do that but he is gonna fill his role in this scheme and not get caught cheating up on the run as we saw Whinny get burned with yesterday a few times.


    I wonder what you guys tone would be if the QB would have made the throw yesterday instead of the lame duck and he would have given up 6 instead of the INT?
    :
    I don't know, probably that Sharper blew his coverage.
    "I hate when threads are destroyed by facts and logic."
    - Prophet


    Thanks Josdin!

  9. #109
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    Re: Official Game 8 Thoughts and Observations

    It speaks mounds about Griffin that the coaching staff was confident enough to put him on Johnson all day even if he did have safety help. They could have easily locked him with Winny and Sharper, but instead they said, "Griffin and Williams are good enough to take care of one of the best WRs in the league. We're gonna use that to our advantage and free up our defensive playmakers so they have a chance to make plays."

    Think about it, how is Winny going to be effective stopping the run if he is worried about getting beat deep every play. Even so, Griffin still made some solid early tackles and also effectively contained Johnson.

    Big thumbs up to Griffin. Big thumbs up to the coaching staff.
    "I hate when threads are destroyed by facts and logic."
    - Prophet


    Thanks Josdin!

  10. #110
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    Re: Official Game 8 Thoughts and Observations

    [quote author=V link=topic=48880.msg860918#msg860918 date=1225739116]
    It speaks mounds about Griffin that the coaching staff was confident enough to put him on Johnson all day even if he did have safety help. They could have easily locked him with Winny and Sharper, but instead they said, "Griffin and Williams are good enough to take care of one of the best WRs in the league. We're gonna use that to our advantage and free up our defensive playmakers so they have a chance to make plays."

    Think about it, how is Winny going to be effective stopping the run if he is worried about getting beat deep every play. Even so, Griffin still made some solid early tackles and also effectively contained Johnson.

    Big thumbs up to Griffin. Big thumbs up to the coaching staff.
    [/quote


    +100

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