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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by smegmavike View Post
    I agree with Sharper to the extent that Musgrave is an unimaginative play caller who is just as predictable as his predecessor and is not only deficient at game planning, is inept at in game adjustments.
    There is no doubt Ponder can't deliver regardless, however Musgrave didn't seem to help him much.
    Commonly we see a run on first down and perhaps second, then expect Ponder to convert on third down.
    Weapons like Jennings, Rudolph, and Patterson were significantly under utilized. I realize Ponder can't deliver, but letting Musgrave off the hook for his part in this seems a bit more gracious than warranted.
    In fact, though some feel this thread is 'stupid', I predict Musgrave will get fired this year.
    During the season? If so, then who do you bring in and do you make another hasty hire and end up giving him 3-4 years to prove himself like a certain HC.

    I think Ponder gets a couple more games to turn things around. If he continues to flounder, then Cassell is the next step. If Cassell looks just as poorly after a few games, then Musgrove is likely the next sacrifice, but hopefully not until the end of the year regardless of the results.

  2. #12
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    My problem with Musgrave is not his play selection, but the plays he's choosing from. It's not when he passes or runs, it's how those passes and runs work. I haven't looked closely enough to really tell how each play is designed, but we seem to lack the intelligent routes, the options, and combinations of those things.

    It just feels like when we get to the line of scrimmage, everything is locked in place. No matter what the defense shows, we don't adjust. Ponder sees the blitz coming, and instead of being able to call a quick blitz-beater audible he's forced to try to avoid the incoming pressure and winds up looking like a fool.

    Look at all the kill calls, protection changes, hot routes and built in options combined with multi-level route combinations that the Giants, Cowboys, Packers, Lions, Patriots other teams use. Of course those teams all have great QBs, but there's no excuse not to even try them.

    If Ponder's playing, Musgrave needs to trust him. You miss all of the shots you don't take. They should be playing to win, not survive. No matter who's at the helm. And if he can't do it, replace him. It's that simple.

  3. #13
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    purplehelmut is offline Pro-Bowler
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    Musgrave's resume doesn't show he has the chops to be an OC:
    1997- Offensive Assistant Raiders
    1998- Offensive Assistant Eagles
    1999- QB coach Panthers
    2000- OC Panthers (resigned after FOUR games)
    01/02- OC/QB coach UVA (that's college!)
    03/04- OC Jaguars (5-11 in 03, 9/7 in 04) Released
    05- QB coach Redskins
    06-09- QB coach Falcons
    2010- Asst. HC/QB coach Falcons
    2011- OC Vikings

    Where on this resume does it show this guy is qualified for the job of OC? He rode Seifert's coattails (a rather dubious distinction) for several years and rode along with Ryan in ATL a few more. In both of his previous stints as OC he was a failure. Go figure.

  4. #14
    C Mac D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by purplehelmut View Post
    Musgrave's resume doesn't show he has the chops to be an OC:
    1997- Offensive Assistant Raiders
    1998- Offensive Assistant Eagles
    1999- QB coach Panthers
    2000- OC Panthers (resigned after FOUR games)
    01/02- OC/QB coach UVA (that's college!)
    03/04- OC Jaguars (5-11 in 03, 9/7 in 04) Released
    05- QB coach Redskins
    06-09- QB coach Falcons
    2010- Asst. HC/QB coach Falcons
    2011- OC Vikings

    Where on this resume does it show this guy is qualified for the job of OC? He rode Seifert's coattails (a rather dubious distinction) for several years and rode along with Ryan in ATL a few more. In both of his previous stints as OC he was a failure. Go figure.
    For a team that hired Brad Childress as HC, resumes obviously don't matter much to our front office.
    Disclaimer: I'm an idiot.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by smegmavike View Post
    I agree with Sharper to the extent that Musgrave is an unimaginative play caller who is just as predictable as his predecessor and is not only deficient at game planning, is inept at in game adjustments.
    There is no doubt Ponder can't deliver regardless, however Musgrave didn't seem to help him much.
    Commonly we see a run on first down and perhaps second, then expect Ponder to convert on third down.
    Weapons like Jennings, Rudolph, and Patterson were significantly under utilized. I realize Ponder can't deliver, but letting Musgrave off the hook for his part in this seems a bit more gracious than warranted.
    In fact, though some feel this thread is 'stupid', I predict Musgrave will get fired this year.
    This is an ongoing fallacy that been proven wrong multiple times. Everyone is so convinced that we run a vanilla run-run-pass offense that they see it even when it isn't there.

    Here is the pass/run breakdown by down and quarter:
    First Quarter
    First Down - 2 Runs, 0 Passes
    Second Down - 1 Run, 0 Passes
    Third Down - 0 Runs, 1 Pass

    Second Quarter
    First Down - 4 Runs, 4 Passes
    Second Down - 1 Run, 3 Passes
    Third Down - 0 Runs, 2 Passes

    Third Quarter
    First Down - 4 Runs, 4 Passes
    Second Down - 3 Runs, 3 Passes
    Third Down - 0 Runs, 3 Passes

    Forth Quarter
    First Down - 3 Runs, 3 Passes
    Second Down - 1 Run, 4 Passes
    Third Down - 0 Runs, 4 Passes
    Forth Down - 0 Runs, 2 Passes

    As far as I can tell, we only had 1 series that followed the run-run-pass pattern, and that was the second series in the first quarter. Considering we ran a grand total of four plays in the first quarter that isn't saying much. The second and third quarters, when we had the lead, was actually very balanced. The fourth quarter started out balanced, but became more pass favored toward the end as we tried to erase a 10 point deficit.

    There are some things that do jump out at me. For instance, we passed on every single 3rd and 4th downs. And we only converted 3 of 12 of them. That is a problem. Why we were passing instead of running on 3rd and 1 when we have the best running back in the NFL is beyond me... I get it, AD is not an every down back, and Detroit was doing a good job of shutting him down... but still.

    If anything, I would have rather seen Musgrave get MORE conservative, and go more run heavy. I trust AD more than Ponder, even when Detroit was shutting him down.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  6. #16
    smegmavike is offline Coordinator
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    Quote Originally Posted by tastywaves View Post
    During the season? If so, then who do you bring in and do you make another hasty hire and end up giving him 3-4 years to prove himself like a certain HC.

    I think Ponder gets a couple more games to turn things around. If he continues to flounder, then Cassell is the next step. If Cassell looks just as poorly after a few games, then Musgrove is likely the next sacrifice, but hopefully not until the end of the year regardless of the results.
    Unless this season turns around, Ponder will go down first. If the offense continues to struggle with Cassel, Musgrave will get canned toward the end of the season or right afterward.
    Spielman will want to deflect blame in an attempt to save his job.

  7. #17
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    He was in a tough position. Between the O-line getting manhandled all game, and the QB not able to complete simple throws, and the running back getting stopped in the back field, I'm not sure there was much that could be done from the sideline.

  8. #18
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    People giving Musgrave excuses is an utter joke. Part of being an offensive coordinator is designing a scheme that your able to run with your current personnel.

    The guy seems to be utterly allergic to running traps, draws and screens (all of which we should have no problem doing) to keep the defense on it's toes with any consistency. Sure he might sprinkle one in here and there (hilariously they usually work but he must not take much note of it) but he's completely ineffective at using them like the more robust and creative NFL offenses do. The guy has zero mystique with his formations. The majority of the time the play call is pretty obvious based on our formation alone. We throw incomplete on first down and then line up like we're going to run (2 back, 2 TE), then we ACTUALLY run. No rules say you can't send out 3 wide and a TE on first down to mix it up or even run out of that formation to throw the opposition off. It's unbelievable how pathetically insipid his offensive scheme is and you can't even blame stuff like this on Ponder! This is all stuff that the coordinator controls.

    Running a QB waggle to the opposite of Ponders throwing side on 3rd and 1 (I think that was the situation at least) was the biggest tell that this coordinator is completely inept. Why in the world would you have a quarterback that is inconsistent at making routine throws even attempt this. There isn't a harder throw you can ask the kid to make.

    Zero use of Patterson. We saw a bubble screen in the third quarter and who would have guessed it would actually be successful. Don't we all know that Patterson is someone we just need to get the ball to whether it be on a screen, end-around or directly from the backfield? Why do we have him riding pine pony the majority of the game? You'd think scheming around Harvin he'd understand that Patterson has many of the same strengths. Isn't that why we drafted him? We don't need him on the sidelines "learning" all the time because he already can use his skill set in many situations that don't rely on him using anything other than his raw speed and elusiveness.

    I don't want to hear anything about how he can't do much because of Ponder. That's a biggest cop out I've ever heard. This is, what, his third time as an OC in the NFL? The guy is frankly not any good at his job, never has been, and almost certainly never will be. We have the best running back in the NFL, a much and improved and even what I'd call above average receiving corps with Jennings, Simpson, Wright and Patterson, a Pro Bowl tight end in Rudolph and a solid offensive line (who admittedly played terrible yesterday, but we were up against one of the best defensive fronts in the NFL on paper, and frankly I think it's more likely they were under prepared with how to deal with them because our coordinator is trash and still couldn't figure out their defense despite having an entire off season to plan against it). There are no more excuses. Even if Ponder is a mediocre quarterback any coordinator worth his salt could be creative enough to scheme around it with the rest of the offensive weapons we have to hang with the rest of the league. I don't think it's much of a bold statement that Ponder suffers more because of Musgrave than Musgrave does scheming around Ponder.
    Last edited by scycon; 09-09-2013 at 01:41 PM.
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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by scycon View Post
    People giving Musgrave excuses is an utter joke. Part of being an offensive coordinator is designing a scheme that your able to run with your current personnel.

    The guy seems to be utterly allergic to running traps, draws and screens (all of which we should have no problem doing) to keep the defense on it's toes. Sure he might sprinkle one in here and there but he's completely ineffective at actually He has no idea how to read the opposition and make adjustments. The guy has zero mystique with his formations. The majority of the time the play call is pretty obvious based on our formation alone. We throw incomplete on first down and then line up like we're going to run (2 back, 2 TE), then we ACTUALLY run. It's unbelievable how pathetically insipid his offensive scheme is and you can't even blame stuff like this on Ponder! This is all stuff that the coordinator controls.

    Running a QB waggle to the opposite of Ponders throwing side on 3rd and 1 (I think that was the situation at least) was the biggest tell that this coordinator is completely inept. Why in the world would you have a quarterback that is inconsistent at making routine throws even attempt this. There isn't a harder throw you can ask the kid to make.

    Zero use of Patterson. We saw a bubble screen in the third quarter and who would have guessed it would actually be successful. Don't we all know that Patterson is someone we just need to get the ball to whether it be on a screen, end-around or directly from the backfield? Why do we have him riding pine pony the majority of the game? You'd think scheming around Harvin he'd understand that Patterson has many of the same strengths. Isn't that why we drafted him? We don't need him on the sidelines "learning" all the time because he already can use his skill set in many situations that don't rely on him using anything other than his raw speed and elusiveness.

    I don't want to hear anything about how he can't do much because of Ponder. That's a biggest cop out I've ever heard. The guy is frankly not any good at his job, never has been, and almost certainly never will be. We have the best running back in the NFL, a much and improved and even what I'd call respectable receiving corps with Jennings, Simpson, Wright and Patterson, a Pro Bowl tight end in Rudolph and a solid offensive line (who admittedly played terrible yesterday, but we were up against one of the best defensive fronts in the NFL on paper, and honestly think it's more likely they were under prepared with how to deal with them because our coordinator is trash and still couldn't figure out their defense despite having an entire off season to plan against it). There are no more excuses. Even if Ponder is a mediocre quarterback any coordinator worth his salt could be creative enough to scheme around it with the rest of the offensive weapons we have to hang with the rest of the league.
    Despite our disagreement on Musgrave's ability, I can concede that you make several very good points.

    First and foremost is the lack of screens and draws. I noticed this as well, and was surprised that we didn't start throwing more screens considering how much pressure they were getting on Ponder.

    I also questioned why Ponder kept rolling to his left. I couldn't tell if those were called bootlegs or if Ponder was just rolling out under pressure. Either way, it is very hard for a right handed QB to make a throw when rolling left. For a QB like Ponder, it is doubly so.

    Those two complaints against Musgrave are entirely warranted, and I don't argue them one bit - not like the 'vanilla offense' train of thought.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  10. #20
    C Mac D's Avatar
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    Bill Musgrave is Childress 2.0

    He just doesn't have the mustache.
    Disclaimer: I'm an idiot.

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