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  1. #101
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    Re: The Vikings and Brett Favre could be a great fit

    what you say is probably true, but Andy Reid would have come up with the scheme he wanted to run, and Hired Childress, to teach this scheme to the players and make sure it runs smoothly.
    I'm not sure of where else CHildress has worked aside from Wisconsin, but at the NFL level, he has made a living off running that scheme in Philly.
    Why would he willingly completely change his philosiphy?
    I firmly belive, that if we had a McNabb calibre player under Center, we would see many great passing peformances, as Chilly adjusts to what personell we have.
    I woudn't expect to see a Peyton Manning like performance week in and week out, but a strong Pass game would emerge.
    The reason it hasn't already, is because we don't have the personell, and we are having moderate success with what we are running now.
    If TJ really does progress nicely and starts showing the true qualities a great QB needs, do you think Chilly will shy away from letting him throw, just because he wants to run?
    No, If he were smart, he would do whatever works to win, which means beating a team through the air if nessecary.

  2. #102
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    Re: The Vikings and Brett Favre could be a great fit




    So many issues, so little time.
    ;D
    Please explain how any of that makes sense
    None of it makes sense.
    I guess we agree there ;D

    There is a large degree of contradiction in what you said.
    No there isn't.
    Let me try to explain it in a different light as you seem to want to take a simple comment and run it down several rabbit holes.
    No, I am just trying to piece together your statements and have them be consistent

    I know we've beat this to death on here so I know you are awarre that there are many different variants of the WCO out there but it all boils down to two types......1) Pass to set up the run and 2) Run to set up the Pass.
    Actually , that reference if I am not mistaken has to do with two totally different systems that both happened to be named for a geographic part of the country. One is a run first to set up the pass offense made famous by Coryell and the Chargers and run by teams like the Cowboys, Chargers, Redskins,Chargers etc that stretches the field vertically. The other is the one attributed to Walsh and run by many that predicates that the passing game takes the place of the run on first downs and is predicated on stretching the field horizontally.
    Is that what you meant?

    I believe it is pretty evident to all by now what variant we run.
    And that is... And Farve would benefit us by....

    Regardless of what variant a team runs, the premise is still the same with respect to what types of throws the QB will make based on his pre-snap reads.
    So then the only difference is how many passes are called and how many runs are called. All else is equal?

    Anyway, back to your issues/confusion....
    OK...

    The WCO offense we have is not capable of churning out 300 yard games
    Sure it is, if the defense is gonna give it to us, however, our scheme is a run first, run second, a dink/dunk pass third if we don't think we can get it with a run.
    That type of scheme is not real conduscive to churning out 300 yard games that typically come from a more vertical attack, which we don't run anymore by the way.

    Will we throw it deep?
    Sure, we took our shots last year several times, but don't look for the Randy Ratio to come back anytime soon my friend.
    First off, if we had the talent to make the throws and catch the ball, do you really think we would still run, run, dink and dunk throw on third? You are making it sound like we intentionally built this team to have no passing game and a strong running game when in fact, my guess is that if we get to the point that we have a line that can pass block, a qb that can make the throws and a wr group that can catch, that we will indeed pass more on first. Plus, I thought it was laid out in a post that we actually are very balanced on first down.

    I will contend that the reason that we have not had 300 yard games is due to the talent and not the particular system we have in place.

    As to the rest of your point,

    why bring him in? Any knucklehead can hand off the ball
    Any knucklehead will agree that even though we are a run first variant, there still is a need to pass to maintain some sort of balance to our attack.
    We lacked in that area a bit last year, not because of the scheme but because of the QB.
    My analysis is that Lord Favreeeeee would alleviate those concerns.
    Sure, he would certainly do that, but at what price. I remember a time when we were one great running back away from a SB so we brought in one of the top backs in the league and inserted him into a system that didn't cater to his style and he failed miserably.

    From what I have seen, we have a very structured offense and farve is a sandlot type of QB who makes things up as he goes along. I have also not known him as a dink and dunk on third down passing QB so if that is our offense, I see no reason to get him at the price he would cost us. The pool of talent that can hand off the ball and throw dink and dunk passes is much larger and cheaper than the most prolific passer in NFL history. And the ego's are smaller.


    Although TJ has shown that he has all the tools to make the necessary throws, he still has/had issues in a couple of key aspects last year related to that side of the ball.

    a.
    Reading defenses and making the correct pre-snap read/adjustment based on that read.
    b.
    Accuracy with his passes.
    c.
    Timing of his throws.

    Regardless of what variant a team runs, those pass patterns are still the same, and the need to be precise with respect to accuracy and when the ball gets to the reciever to ensure he not only catches it in stride but on time so he can maximize YAC, is the same.
    If the patterns are the same, as you contend, then the difference in a 300+ and a 300- offense is the number of passes called and the talent of the QB and WR. So by increasing the talent at those 2 positions and increasing the number of pass plays called, the KAO can indeed be a 300 YPG offense.


    My analysis (that you seem to struggle with) is that Lord Farve can still make those things happen.
    Only issue he would have is to adjust to the verbiage in calling those plays.

    Again, I don't see any issue with him coming in and picking up the lingo, at least to a degree that he could be very effective in this system.

    The bigger issue is will he play within the system (run first) or will he devert to the gunslinger mode all the time and audible every gol 'darnit play into a pass play.


    My guess is he will revert to the gunslinger, as he did alot last year, which is probably why TT and the PUKER Org want him gone as they really want to move twards the run first type of WCO that we are running as well.

    Hope that explained it enough for ya.
    ;D
    You still seem to be hung up in the system thing, so let me throw this at you. (Hypothetically)


    Lets just say for shits and giggles that we brought in Farve as the QB in this dink and dunk KAO and that he picked it up as you suggest. Now, in game 1 AD goes down with a season ending injury and CT is injured in the preseason and cannot play,which leaves us thin at RB.

    On the other hand, Berrian turns out to be a legitimate deep threat, Rice ends up being better than we predicted and Allison surprises us with his improvement while Wade keeps plugging along.

    Do you think at that point that we would still be seeing 8 in the box and would we still run, run, dink and dunk or would the staff call more pass plays than they did last year? To make this change, would we need to install a whole new version of a WCO or would we just change up the playcalling to have a higher ratio of pass plays than we have now in order to keep the defense on it's heels?



  3. #103
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    Re: The Vikings and Brett Favre could be a great fit

    First off, if we had the talent to make the throws and catch the ball, do you really think we would still run, run, dink and dunk throw on third? You are making it sound like we intentionally built this team to have no passing game and a strong running game when in fact, my guess is that if we get to the point that we have a line that can pass block, a qb that can make the throws and a wr group that can catch, that we will indeed pass more on first. Plus, I thought it was laid out in a post that we actually are very balanced on first down.

    I will contend that the reason that we have not had 300 yard games is due to the talent and not the particular system we have in place.
    essentially what I was trying to say in less words

  4. #104
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    Re: The Vikings and Brett Favre could be a great fit

    "i_bleed_purple" wrote:
    First off, if we had the talent to make the throws and catch the ball, do you really think we would still run, run, dink and dunk throw on third? You are making it sound like we intentionally built this team to have no passing game and a strong running game when in fact, my guess is that if we get to the point that we have a line that can pass block, a qb that can make the throws and a wr group that can catch, that we will indeed pass more on first. Plus, I thought it was laid out in a post that we actually are very balanced on first down.

    I will contend that the reason that we have not had 300 yard games is due to the talent and not the particular system we have in place.
    essentially what I was trying to say in less words

    You just moved up a column in the Lotus 1-2-3 ;D

  5. #105
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    Re: The Vikings and Brett Favre could be a great fit

    Haha... good ol' Lotus....
    I've got about 20 copies of that laying around the office... lol

  6. #106
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    Re: The Vikings and Brett Favre could be a great fit

    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    Actually , that reference if I am not mistaken has to do with two totally different systems that both happened to be named for a geographic part of the country. One is a run first to set up the pass offense made famous by Coryell and the Chargers and run by teams like the Cowboys, Chargers, Redskins,Chargers etc that stretches the field vertically. The other is the one attributed to Walsh and run by many that predicates that the passing game takes the place of the run on first downs and is predicated on stretching the field horizontally.
    Is that what you meant?
    Historically you are correct when it comes to what variants came out of what coaching staffs but both versions passing schemes are pretty much the same.
    A quick search on this site will give you a plethora of links that I've provided on this very same subject as well as some additional stuff on how those schemes have evolved.

    And that is... And Farve would benefit us by....
    My guess is he would only make us a bit better than we are now but please, don't try to make it out like I want him here as I don't.
    I would much rather see TJ struggle a bit this year, iron out the last of the bugs and then strap it on for the 2009/2010 season.

    So then the only difference is how many passes are called and how many runs are called. All else is equal?
    Exactly with one small addition, if one were to take a look at the rosters of teams that run the variants, you would see that they tend to carry a couple of extra TE/FB's because of the pounding they take.



    Anyway, back to your issues/confusion....
    First off, if we had the talent to make the throws and catch the ball, do you really think we would still run, run, dink and dunk throw on third? You are making it sound like we intentionally built this team to have no passing game and a strong running game when in fact, my guess is that if we get to the point that we have a line that can pass block, a qb that can make the throws and a wr group that can catch, that we will indeed pass more on first. Plus, I thought it was laid out in a post that we actually are very balanced on first down.

    I will contend that the reason that we have not had 300 yard games is due to the talent and not the particular system we have in place.
    Then you would agree with me that the talent on the roster is there because the staff wants it there to employ the scheme they want.


    Probably a bad example, however, if a team wants to be run heavy, they will get the Olineman that can effectively block for that scheme rather than to go out and get Olineman that would be better pass protectors.


    Of course it would be nice if they would go out and get Olineman that can do both, but you get my point.

    From what I have seen, we have a very structured offense and farve is a sandlot type of QB who makes things up as he goes along. I have also not known him as a dink and dunk on third down passing QB so if that is our offense, I see no reason to get him at the price he would cost us. The pool of talent that can hand off the ball and throw dink and dunk passes is much larger and cheaper than the most prolific passer in NFL history. And the ego's are smaller.
    I think you and I are in violent agreement here and niether of us want him on the team.
    Problem is you are taking my first point to the next extreme and seem to think all my discussion points are centered on trying to convince you that we need him.



    I don't think we do, however, I would understand if we brought him in for a season or two.
    I would still think its a mistake, but I would understand.

    ;D


    If the patterns are the same, as you contend, then the difference in a 300+ and a 300- offense is the number of passes called and the talent of the QB and WR. So by increasing the talent at those 2 positions and increasing the number of pass plays called, the KAO can indeed be a 300 YPG offense.
    Agree but again, I believe that this staff wants to be a run first team, regardless of what talent they have in the passing game.

    Will we see a 300yd game this year?
    I really think we will, but I don't think it is gonna be a thing that happens very often.


    You still seem to be hung up in the system thing, so let me throw this at you. (Hypothetically)


    Lets just say for poohies and giggles that we brought in Farve as the QB in this dink and dunk KAO and that he picked it up as you suggest. Now, in game 1 AD goes down with a season ending injury and CT is injured in the preseason and cannot play,which leaves us thin at RB.

    On the other hand, Berrian turns out to be a legitimate deep threat, Rice ends up being better than we predicted and Allison surprises us with his improvement while Wade keeps plugging along.

    Do you think at that point that we would still be seeing 8 in the box and would we still run, run, dink and dunk or would the staff call more pass plays than they did last year? To make this change, would we need to install a whole new version of a WCO or would we just change up the playcalling to have a higher ratio of pass plays than we have now in order to keep the defense on it's heels?
    I am hung up on the system cause I am a system guy.
    I believe the best teams determine what system/scheme they want to run, they draft/get talent to run that scheme and they stick with it.

    As to your question/hypothetical situation......

    Of course they would have to revert to a more pass oriented scheme if we had that big of a blow to our running attack.
    Funny thing is, I think our year would be shot though if that did happen, cause I just don't feel that TJ is ready to carry a team yet.
    Now if the great Lord Favreeeeee was on the team, it might be a different story now wouldn't it.
    (I can't believe I am even having this discussion.

    :'()

    In 2009/2010 I think my opinion would be a bit different though if TJ was the QB as I think all the pieces are in place for this team to evolve into a good team that can absorb a hit like that.

    Case in point, Vikes vs Pats.
    We couldn't stop the pass, but no one could run against us.
    The Pats could run at will or pass at will that year.
    What did they do?

    They used one of thier strenghts (which we don't have yet) and pretty went pass happy on our jiggly butt. When they couldn't run (which was one of thier strenghts) the switched to thier other strenght (which was the pass) and exploited our weakness.

    I believe that our WR corps is now in place that can do that if the situation calls, my only worry is can the QB and OL hold up thier end of the bargain.

    Again, back to my original comment that brought us down this path, I believe Lord Favreeeeee would be a good fit to make that happen.

    He can read a defense (based on what we saw from TJ last year) better, he can throw a better pass (more accurate/better timed that we saw from TJ last year), and he can do it faster (from what we saw from TJ last year), which should help the OL a bit.

    Long story short......

    a. Do I want him here?
    Lord NOOOOOO
    b. Would it be a good fit (original question of the thread)?
    I think it would.
    c.
    Would it hurt TJ's progress?
    I think it would but some would disagree with me and say the TJ would learn from him.
    (I don't think Lord Favreeeeeee would teach him pooh cause he is an jiggly butt about stuff like that
    ;D).


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  7. #107
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    Re: The Vikings and Brett Favre could be a great fit

    I think favre would teach him a little bit, but mostly I'm inagreement with you.
    Favre didn't teach Rogers shit, as he was more concerned with playing, but even if Favre doen't physically go to TJ and teach him stuff, TJ can still learn from watching.
    Bevell was Favres QB Coach for a while, so he would know what Favre is doing and could explain it to TJ.

    edit!!!!*****

    I can't believe we're still having this discussion like its a possible scenario.
    THee's no way Favre comes here.
    Even if he gets cut, why wouldn't he just say "NO" to the vikings the way Culpepper and Moss did to the Packers?
    I don't think he'll just forget a rivalry like that.
    (But then again maybe he wouldn't if he truly is upset with the Packers Org.)

  8. #108
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    Re: The Vikings and Brett Favre could be a great fit

    "i_bleed_purple" wrote:
    what you say is probably true, but Andy Reid would have come up with the scheme he wanted to run, and Hired Childress, to teach this scheme to the players and make sure it runs smoothly.
    I'm not sure of where else CHildress has worked aside from Wisconsin, but at the NFL level, he has made a living off running that scheme in Philly.
    Why would he willingly completely change his philosiphy?

    I firmly belive, that if we had a McNabb calibre player under Center, we would see many great passing peformances, as Chilly adjusts to what personell we have.
    I woudn't expect to see a Peyton Manning like performance week in and week out, but a strong Pass game would emerge.
    The reason it hasn't already, is because we don't have the personell, and we are having moderate success with what we are running now.
    If TJ really does progress nicely and starts showing the true qualities a great QB needs, do you think Chilly will shy away from letting him throw, just because he wants to run?

    No, If he were smart, he would do whatever works to win, which means beating a team through the air if nessecary.
    I think we will see something in between what happened in the Denver game (we took what the defense gave us) and what we did the rest of the season.

    When/if TJ becomes the QB that can read a defense, recognize what the defenses weakness is, and make the correct audible/adjustment to exploit that, then yes, we might see a day when we are a pass happy team.

    Problem is, I just don't see that happening this year.

    We will continue to be a run first, run second, run third if we can get away with it, if not throw a high percentage dink/dunk pass with a few deep throws on first downs if the defense is gonna give it to us even if TJ becomes a McNabb type of player.

    Its the way this team was/is built.
    Heck, even our possible replacement/saviour for if TJ fails has a weakness when it comes to throwing the ball deep.
    JDB is a WCO guy that fits our scheme.
    ;D
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  9. #109
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    Re: The Vikings and Brett Favre could be a great fit

    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "i_bleed_purple" wrote:
    what you say is probably true, but Andy Reid would have come up with the scheme he wanted to run, and Hired Childress, to teach this scheme to the players and make sure it runs smoothly.
    I'm not sure of where else CHildress has worked aside from Wisconsin, but at the NFL level, he has made a living off running that scheme in Philly.
    Why would he willingly completely change his philosiphy?

    I firmly belive, that if we had a McNabb calibre player under Center, we would see many great passing peformances, as Chilly adjusts to what personell we have.
    I woudn't expect to see a Peyton Manning like performance week in and week out, but a strong Pass game would emerge.
    The reason it hasn't already, is because we don't have the personell, and we are having moderate success with what we are running now.
    If TJ really does progress nicely and starts showing the true qualities a great QB needs, do you think Chilly will shy away from letting him throw, just because he wants to run?

    No, If he were smart, he would do whatever works to win, which means beating a team through the air if nessecary.
    .

    When/if TJ becomes the QB that can read a defense, recognize what the defenses weakness is, and make the correct audible/adjustment to exploit that, then yes, we might see a day when we are a pass happy team.

    Problem is, I just don't see that happening this year.
    No one said that we expect to see it this year.
    All I was saying was it is unlikely that Chilly's grand plan is to Run Run Run and be content with 130 passing yards a game, regardless of what personell we have.
    If that were the case, then we wouldn't have gotten Berrian, because we were already capable of only throwing 130 yards per game already.
    Obviously, that means Chilly (yes Marr... I know its not just Chilly)
    + Co. would like to see more passes being thrown if they went out and spent a boatload of cash on a playmaker for the passing game.

  10. #110
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    Re: The Vikings and Brett Favre could be a great fit

    "i_bleed_purple" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "i_bleed_purple" wrote:
    what you say is probably true, but Andy Reid would have come up with the scheme he wanted to run, and Hired Childress, to teach this scheme to the players and make sure it runs smoothly.
    I'm not sure of where else CHildress has worked aside from Wisconsin, but at the NFL level, he has made a living off running that scheme in Philly.
    Why would he willingly completely change his philosiphy?
    I firmly belive, that if we had a McNabb calibre player under Center, we would see many great passing peformances, as Chilly adjusts to what personell we have.
    I woudn't expect to see a Peyton Manning like performance week in and week out, but a strong Pass game would emerge.
    The reason it hasn't already, is because we don't have the personell, and we are having moderate success with what we are running now.
    If TJ really does progress nicely and starts showing the true qualities a great QB needs, do you think Chilly will shy away from letting him throw, just because he wants to run?
    No, If he were smart, he would do whatever works to win, which means beating a team through the air if nessecary.
    .

    When/if TJ becomes the QB that can read a defense, recognize what the defenses weakness is, and make the correct audible/adjustment to exploit that, then yes, we might see a day when we are a pass happy team.

    Problem is, I just don't see that happening this year.
    No one said that we expect to see it this year.
    All I was saying was it is unlikely that Chilly's grand plan is to Run Run Run and be content with 130 passing yards a game, regardless of what personell we have.
    If that were the case, then we wouldn't have gotten Berrian, because we were already capable of only throwing 130 yards per game already.
    Obviously, that means Chilly (yes Marr... I know its not just Chilly)
    + Co. would like to see more passes being thrown if they went out and spent a boatload of cash on a playmaker for the passing game.
    I am.

    We'll see it this year.

    Beat the Colts.
    Disclaimer: I'm an idiot.

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