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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Floyd View Post
    By saying that then are you blaming all of the low to mid round misses on Childress and giving Spielman a pass on that era?

    Who are the guys in this draft after the first round that you are seeing as players that are going to become solid role players? I will give you Walsh, he looks like a keeper but Wright, Robinson and co. don't look any different than what we have seen in the past.
    I don't put it all on Childress - I put it on an ineffective system made up of compromises. When nobody is in charge and all authority is averaged out you get players that are just that - average. With a single person in charge he is better able to make personnel decisions that fit his vision. No whether that vision works out or not remains to be seen, but at least it is a single vision, not three.

    And I actually like Robinson as a pick, although it is early to tell. If we end up with 4 starters out of this year's draft I would be happy.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    I don't put it all on Childress - I put it on an ineffective system made up of compromises. When nobody is in charge and all authority is averaged out you get players that are just that - average.
    I agree with you on the premise, although I am not sure that there was much compromise in terms of talent. I think it was more a case of Childress getting the players he wanted and Spielman occasionally bringing in a guy he wanted and Childress stonewalling them if he didn't like them.




    With a single person in charge he is better able to make personnel decisions that fit his vision. No whether that vision works out or not remains to be seen, but at least it is a single vision, not three.
    I agree with that 100% but I strongly believe that we didn't really fix our problem because in the end Spielman didn't get to bring in his own staff but rather Wilf selected the staff that is charged with implementing the scheme and the talent and Spielman has no control over the coaches, and the coaches don't have any control over the players that are brought in ( At least on the surface, they may collaborate but it would be outside the defined responsibilities).

    I think that sets up just as bad of a scenario as we had before but just shifting things to a different rung on the ladder.

    And I actually like Robinson as a pick, although it is early to tell. If we end up with 4 starters out of this year's draft I would be happy.
    Yeah, if it is 4 good starters and not 2 starters and one Ryan Cook and one Asher Allen.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by tarkenton10 View Post
    Did you lose a girl to Marrdro or something? You seem to hammer his analysis no matter what. Marrdro makes some very good points (my friend, Marrdroese) and they are:

    1. We need a warpig-Our D-line has gone down hill since when, what happened that you can actually markedly see, Fhat Pat's departure. Since that has happened our D whether it be run D or pass D has gone down hill.

    2. We need a Mike linebacker in the worst way. I take that back we one in the worst way.

    3. We need some ball hawing safeties!!

    If you want the T2 to work you have to be strong up the middle on D IMO! That pretty much goes for any sport.


    So, if in order for the T2 to work at all it requires this beast of a warpig, which we don't have & a speedy MLB with great tackling abilities, which we don't have, then why are we trying to run it?

    Clearly, you're both saying we haven't got the players to run it & if that's the case, we shouldn't be running a scheme we don't have the players to run it.


    Teams don't try to win ball games with a running attack, continually pounding the ball, if they haven't got a decent RB.

    Even if we had said warpig & got even more pressure on the QB than we already are, it doesn't change the fact that the QB's will still complete passes on the run to his intended receivers because our DB's are often times leaving them way too much room.


    And when our safties are playing prevent defense to avoid giving up the big play, it's hard for them to be "ball hawking". We had a ball hawking safety a few years back on our team, incidentally Marrdro wanted him gone, but our defensive coach hand cuffed his ball hawking abilities in the name of the T2.

    That D-coach was Frazier.


    Couldn't agree more Singer. The problem is though we have to run this scheme. It's the most basic scheme you can run and it is doomed to die like the death of a thousand cuts.
    This defense can win championships but the players have to be a perfect fit. We don't have anything close at this point.


    The Tampa 2 is a defense for a team lacking talent. It's many small cuts and hope you don't bleed to death. You have to cut your opponents deeper and at this point we are using knives made of cork.
    I bet you could use a cool one huh Clark...Now you're talkin Eddie...

  4. #54
    Minniman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by battleaxe4cheese View Post
    The Tampa 2 is a defense for a team lacking talent. It's many small cuts and hope you don't bleed to death. You have to cut your opponents deeper and at this point we are using knives made of cork.
    In my opinion, the opposite is more valid; the Tampa 2 needs extremely good defensive backs and a line that can provide pressure on any down. It also needs coaches that are willing to allow the defensive backs to attack the ball in their zones.

    Passive defenses, no matter what they are called, will be destroyed by the better offensive minds in the NFL.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minniman View Post
    In my opinion, the opposite is more valid; the Tampa 2 needs extremely good defensive backs and a line that can provide pressure on any down. It also needs coaches that are willing to allow the defensive backs to attack the ball in their zones.

    Passive defenses, no matter what they are called, will be destroyed by the better offensive minds in the NFL.

    I am sorta tracking with your line of thinking. Of course in this day and age where passing is becoming more and more prominent it seems that you either build up your offense in the hopes of winning the nuclear arms race or you beef up your defenses and hope you can take away their attack. I spent a lot of time in the off season looking for ways to counter the high powered offenses and still feel that with our current set of talent that we should have went DB in the 1st round and built up the defense with top talent instead of taking the OL but time will tell. My theory was that the LT, while important can only impact 1 defensive player on any given play while a shut down corner can take away a whole side of a field, which can give the DL more flex in how they attack the QB.

    In the end if we are going to be a rushing, ball control, TE heavy offense we NEED to have a top notch defense with great coaching and great talent or we go nowhere. It doesn't cut it to have second rate LB's and third rate DB's nor can we have coaches who are not the best of the best. Right now we got nuthin.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by battleaxe4cheese View Post
    Couldn't agree more Singer. The problem is though we have to run this scheme. It's the most basic scheme you can run and it is doomed to die like the death of a thousand cuts.
    This defense can win championships but the players have to be a perfect fit. We don't have anything close at this point.


    The Tampa 2 is a defense for a team lacking talent. It's many small cuts and hope you don't bleed to death. You have to cut your opponents deeper and at this point we are using knives made of cork.
    Lets be clear on one point.....We run the C2 not the T2 and there are distinct differences between the two.

    One of which is what kindof MLB we use and how we use him.

    Someone go find that thread I posted this summer on this very same subject so that we are all talking off the same sheet of music again. (for once).
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    So, if in order for the T2 to work at all it requires this beast of a warpig, which we don't have & a speedy MLB with great tackling abilities, which we don't have, then why are we trying to run it?

    Clearly, you're both saying we haven't got the players to run it & if that's the case, we shouldn't be running a scheme we don't have the players to run it.

    Teams don't try to win ball games with a running attack, continually pounding the ball, if they haven't got a decent RB.

    Even if we had said warpig & got even more pressure on the QB than we already are, it doesn't change the fact that the QB's will still complete passes on the run to his intended receivers because our DB's are often times leaving them way too much room.

    And when our safties are playing prevent defense to avoid giving up the big play, it's hard for them to be "ball hawking". We had a ball hawking safety a few years back on our team, incidentally Marrdro wanted him gone, but our defensive coach hand cuffed his ball hawking abilities in the name of the T2.

    That D-coach was Frazier.
    You have completely missed my points and you clearly don't understand what the heck our scheme is supposed to be doing.

    And I didn't want our "Ball Hawking" safety gone for any other reason than he didn't want to play in the scheme (not my fault) and he was a ex PUKER (again, not my fault).

    Absolutely stupid to have a cat on the team that refuses to play the scheme the coaches want him to play for goodness sake.

    Look, it isn't like I'm in love with the scheme for cripes sake. Not sure why you have a bug up your ass trying to make it out that way.

    All I'm doing is pointing out the issues we have trying to run that scheme. Pop your head out of your ass, get the burr out from under your fricken saddle and you might just fricken see that.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Floyd View Post
    I am sorta tracking with your line of thinking. Of course in this day and age where passing is becoming more and more prominent it seems that you either build up your offense in the hopes of winning the nuclear arms race or you beef up your defenses and hope you can take away their attack. I spent a lot of time in the off season looking for ways to counter the high powered offenses and still feel that with our current set of talent that we should have went DB in the 1st round and built up the defense with top talent instead of taking the OL but time will tell. My theory was that the LT, while important can only impact 1 defensive player on any given play while a shut down corner can take away a whole side of a field, which can give the DL more flex in how they attack the QB.

    In the end if we are going to be a rushing, ball control, TE heavy offense we NEED to have a top notch defense with great coaching and great talent or we go nowhere. It doesn't cut it to have second rate LB's and third rate DB's nor can we have coaches who are not the best of the best. Right now we got nuthin.
    Excellent discsussion points my friend. I would have went either WR (score more points/give the QB a target who gets open) or DL (and not another 3 tech).

    I'm kindof sick and tired of watching them try to fix the scheme by throwing DB's at it instead of just drafting one guy.

    Think about how good our D would be with a cat like Raji, Suh, Poe, ect.

    Something to watch that I did for the first time this weekend, watch how hard our LB'rs work to get to the gap. Chad and Erin get there, but they usually get there after fighting off a blocker. The reason they have to do that is because guys like JA, K-dubb, Guion aren't demanding doubles.

    Again, something someone pointed out that I've never paid attention to.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by NDVikingFan66 View Post
    I too think we have done OK with some of our draft choices and signings, but not perfect. I really do not know where that blame lies. Yes, this year Rick is the go to guy, but what kind of input do the coaches have in that process. Some, I am sure. On top of that, what part is coaching, and what part is just poor/great athletes?

    If we have good players, why are we a bad team?
    Agree'd. One thing to think about, I wonder how developed those cats would be under a different coaching staff?

    That, by the way wasn't an open hack on the coaches for those that are counting. Just an observation (come on week 6).
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by tarkenton10 View Post
    Did you lose a girl to Marrdro or something?
    LOL, you crack me up. Don't worry my friend. Been getting PM's from others as to whats up with our good friend Singer. He is just frustrated with the team, as we all are.


    You seem to hammer his analysis no matter what. Marrdro makes some very good points (my friend, Marrdroese) and they are:

    1. We need a warpig-Our D-line has gone down hill since when, what happened that you can actually markedly see, Fhat Pat's departure. Since that has happened our D whether it be run D or pass D has gone down hill.

    2. We need a Mike linebacker in the worst way. I take that back we one in the worst way.

    3. We need some ball hawing safeties!!

    If you want the T2 to work you have to be stong up the middle on D IMO! That pretty much goes for any sport.
    Thats it in a nutshell. I agree with all of that with a couple of exceptions...

    a. I think we have the S's. They are just learning. The lack of the Warpig kindof hurts that progression, as it does with our younger DB's as well.

    b. I think that we are putting to much emphasis on the MLB. Again one has to realize that we run the C2 not the T2. For some reason the difference between the two has been missed on this page.

    c. We play alot more Man to Man than most recognize as well. Whinny got beat (early in the game) on a man up coverage.

    On a side note, thanks for the backup with our good friend Steve. Give him some time. Again, frustration is tough to deal with. Some handle it better than others.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

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