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  1. #281
    jargomcfargo's Avatar
    jargomcfargo is offline Ring of Fame
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    Re: Offical Post Game Thoughts And Observations Vs. Cardinals

    "singersp" wrote:
    "jargomcfargo" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:
    "jargomcfargo" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    [quote author=jargomcfargo link=topic=49547.msg881553#msg881553 date=1229641691]
    [quote author=seaniemck7 link=topic=49547.msg881540#msg881540 date=1229640664]
    [quote author=vikes2456 link=topic=49547.msg881513#msg881513 date=1229638301]
    [quote author=seaniemck7 link=topic=49547.msg881510#msg881510 date=1229637635]
    [quote author=jargomcfargo link=topic=49547.msg881495#msg881495 date=1229636012]
    [quote author=Marrdro link=topic=49547.msg881431#msg881431 date=1229627969]
    [quote author=jargomcfargo link=topic=49547.msg881401#msg881401 date=1229623833]
    [quote author=Marrdro link=topic=49547.msg879490#msg879490 date=1229362828]
    [quote author=jargomcfargo link=topic=49547.msg879484#msg879484 date=1229362616]
    [quote author=singersp link=topic=49547.msg879472#msg879472 date=1229362039]
    [quote author=jargomcfargo link=topic=49547.msg879350#msg879350 date=1229354100]

    It is my belief that the easier, less physical training camp allowed the players to have something left in the tank at this point in the season.
    I am in favor of the less physical training camp.
    Those who don't pass their conditioning test need conditioning. But I don't think a whole lot of contact is necessary.
    I'm surprised. It's been over 2 hours since your post & there has been no retort from Marrdro yet.
    Me too. I've been waiting all season to re-open this can of worms! lol!
    We all know we lost the first 2 games cause this team wasn't ready to go because of the lame attempt at the "New Chiller" and his wimpy pre-season.

    The reason our guys have something left in the tank is because we have depth at key positions which gives us the lattitude (when the coaches have enough sense to do it) to rotate players in so that the Vets/Starters can get some reps off.

    Of course, much to the chagrin of most CSA'rs, those reps off take away from individual awards such as rushing titles or sacks..... :P :P :P
    Quote from the Chiller at the bye week.

    "I just don't believe with the length of this season that you beat up the players or you beat up the coaches," Childress said. "You need to go for the fresh here over the long haul ."
    And that goal My Sexy Little Pixie is achieved through rotations at each and (almost) every position.

    Not taking it easy in pre-season.
    [/quote]

    Quote from Bud Grant


    link

    http://www.beckys-place.net/2006az/b.html

    "So, we told our players to come in shape and we will have a short training camp, get on with our business and then we would be saving something for the end of the season rather than trying to expend it all in training camp to have a lot of players around just to keep the coaches busy. The players appreciated a shorter training camp. I think that is more and more the vogue today, as opposed to what they used to do years ago. Bring in 120 players and go there for three or four weeks before your first preseason game? What a waste of time effort and money and liability. I think more teams have come around to our way of thinking."

    I think i will go with Bud's opinion on this one pixie!
    ;D


    [/quote]

    How convenient that you left out the start that quote:

    "The Vikings always went to camp late under me. The longer you are in the business, the more comfortable you become. You can't be insecure, although there are many insecure coaches. And you can't be second guessing yourself. The longer you coach the more you are comfortable with what you are and how you are doing it."


    Please see my prior comments.
    Childress has NOT been in the HC business very long.
    He doesn't have the luxuryof experience that Almighty Grant had at the time he was making those decisions.
    How many years had the Vikings kicked jiggly butt consistantly for BG to acquire that philosophy?

    Experience makes the difference.
    NO ONE questioned Bud Grant.
    Plenty of people question first year head coaches.
    Therefore, kick some jiggly butt in TC.



    [/quote]

    Your post doesn't make sense. You say childress hasn't been an HC for very long, ok true. But Bud Grant has been, and thus his statement would support Childress', and therefore Childress being fairly new should not matter...
    [/quote]

    Being new and soft = Wade Phillips = meow.
    Being new and hard gets peoples attention.
    It does matter, not only in establishing authority, but also getting your systems in place.

    [/quote]

    Which is kind of what Childress did. Tough training camp first year. A little easier since.

    BTW here is something from SID, the book Sid wrote about his life as a sports reporter.

    " Steckel ordered the players to report to the Mankato training facility earlier and tried to turn it into a concentration camp.
    The players were pounding on one another everyday in practice. This was exactly the oppposite of Grant's approach.
    The Vikings were always the last team to report to training camp."

    I stand by Bud.
    [/quote]

    Not a fair comparison. Steckel was never given a fair shot to turn the team around.They fired him after the first year so there was no time for him to totally implement his changes. Those hard hitting practices may have toughened the team up so that they didn't roll over in the big games when the going got tough like they did under Grant.
    [/quote]

    I'm glad I wasn't wasting my time. A response like this just shows that I should stand by Bud more often!
    [/quote]

    Grant never said his practices were easy & the team was practicing in shorts & no pads with little hitting. He said his [s]practices[/s] training camps were shorter in duration. Especially if the players came into camp in shape.

    There's a huge difference between the way Steckel ran his camp & the way Childress does. Grant was somewhere in the middle.
    [/quote]

    Grant was somewhere in the middle? I have read almost everything I can find on the Vikings under Grant and now Childress. Can you please educate me with some evidence that shows Grant was in the middle?

    Grant didn't say his practices were shorter in duration. He said that training camp was shorter.
    He said this.And this is a direct quote.

    "we will have a short training camp, get on with our business and then we would be saving something for the end of the season rather than trying to expend it all in training camp ."




    'the team was practicing in shorts & no pads with little hitting'

    Where does that come from again?

    I believe this team was flat at the end of last year when it counted against Washington.
    I believe they are surging in December this year. I attribute that , in part, to an easier training camp.

    [/quote]

    I meant to say his training camps were shorter in duration. I was referring to that specific quote when I made my post.

    There were many articles written during camp this year where the team practiced in shorts or without pads. From what I recall, there weren't that many full pads, hitting & contact scrimmages practices. Many were light & less physical

    We had our share of injuries this year despite the light practices. Rice, Berrian, Jackson, M-Will, Boulware, Farwell, Mitchell, Radovich & others were injured in preseason. Can you say with assurance that lack of conditioning or physical contact didn't play a part in any of their injuries?

    From what I recall of Bud's camps, they were short, but there were still physical practices & scrimmages involved.

    I attribute our surge in the last part of the season to fielding a better team overall, the schedule we faced, the healthiness of those teams, the better play of Jackson the last week & a half, the return of M-Will, players coming in & stepping up when they replace an injured player & good depth at many positions that allow substitutions throughout the games without jeopardizing the quality of play.
    [/quote]

    I must have a short memory. I don't recall saying anything about a relationship between injury and a light training camp. Marrdro believes it is so.
    I doubt there is a relationship.

    A tough training camp doesn't have much effect on how strong your bones or ligaments are. In fact, I believe Berrian got his turf toe during training camp.And Rice was injured against the Colts right in front of myself and Uffda, when he twisted awkwardly trying to make a sideline catch. The twisting seemed to have more to do with it than anything.
    So no. I can not say with assurance that lack of conditioning or physical contact didn't play a part in any of their injuries?
    Just like you can't say with assurance it did.

    And the late season improvement may be due to those factors you listed.

    It is obvious that Bud felt a shorter training camp would leave something in the tank for the late season.

    I agree with that theory.

    You don't.
    “What takes a quarterback to the next level is not arm strength or mobility or any of that stuff. It’s the ability to play on critical downs. Manage third downs, or red zones or four-minute or two-minute situations"
    Dilfer

  2. #282
    NordicNed is offline Jersey Retired
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    9,513

    Re: Offical Post Game Thoughts And Observations Vs. Cardinals

    Another fact is this,




    Most players, come into camp, already in top condition.
    Many of todays players are harder on themselves in the off season, than any camp could hand them.....And thats a fact.


    I LOVE THE SMELL OF VICTORY IN THE MORNING AIR.

  3. #283
    singersp's Avatar
    singersp is offline PPO Newshound
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    52,271

    Re: Offical Post Game Thoughts And Observations Vs. Cardinals

    "jargomcfargo" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:
    "jargomcfargo" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:
    "jargomcfargo" wrote:
    [quote author=UffDaVikes link=topic=49547.msg882036#msg882036 date=1229726424]
    [quote author=jargomcfargo link=topic=49547.msg881553#msg881553 date=1229641691]
    [quote author=seaniemck7 link=topic=49547.msg881540#msg881540 date=1229640664]
    [quote author=vikes2456 link=topic=49547.msg881513#msg881513 date=1229638301]
    [quote author=seaniemck7 link=topic=49547.msg881510#msg881510 date=1229637635]
    [quote author=jargomcfargo link=topic=49547.msg881495#msg881495 date=1229636012]
    [quote author=Marrdro link=topic=49547.msg881431#msg881431 date=1229627969]
    [quote author=jargomcfargo link=topic=49547.msg881401#msg881401 date=1229623833]
    [quote author=Marrdro link=topic=49547.msg879490#msg879490 date=1229362828]
    [quote author=jargomcfargo link=topic=49547.msg879484#msg879484 date=1229362616]
    [quote author=singersp link=topic=49547.msg879472#msg879472 date=1229362039]
    [quote author=jargomcfargo link=topic=49547.msg879350#msg879350 date=1229354100]

    It is my belief that the easier, less physical training camp allowed the players to have something left in the tank at this point in the season.
    I am in favor of the less physical training camp.
    Those who don't pass their conditioning test need conditioning. But I don't think a whole lot of contact is necessary.
    I'm surprised. It's been over 2 hours since your post & there has been no retort from Marrdro yet.
    Me too. I've been waiting all season to re-open this can of worms! lol!
    We all know we lost the first 2 games cause this team wasn't ready to go because of the lame attempt at the "New Chiller" and his wimpy pre-season.

    The reason our guys have something left in the tank is because we have depth at key positions which gives us the lattitude (when the coaches have enough sense to do it) to rotate players in so that the Vets/Starters can get some reps off.

    Of course, much to the chagrin of most CSA'rs, those reps off take away from individual awards such as rushing titles or sacks..... :P :P :P
    Quote from the Chiller at the bye week.

    "I just don't believe with the length of this season that you beat up the players or you beat up the coaches," Childress said. "You need to go for the fresh here over the long haul ."
    And that goal My Sexy Little Pixie is achieved through rotations at each and (almost) every position.

    Not taking it easy in pre-season.
    [/quote]

    Quote from Bud Grant


    link

    http://www.beckys-place.net/2006az/b.html

    "So, we told our players to come in shape and we will have a short training camp, get on with our business and then we would be saving something for the end of the season rather than trying to expend it all in training camp to have a lot of players around just to keep the coaches busy. The players appreciated a shorter training camp. I think that is more and more the vogue today, as opposed to what they used to do years ago. Bring in 120 players and go there for three or four weeks before your first preseason game? What a waste of time effort and money and liability. I think more teams have come around to our way of thinking."

    I think i will go with Bud's opinion on this one pixie!
    ;D


    [/quote]

    How convenient that you left out the start that quote:

    "The Vikings always went to camp late under me. The longer you are in the business, the more comfortable you become. You can't be insecure, although there are many insecure coaches. And you can't be second guessing yourself. The longer you coach the more you are comfortable with what you are and how you are doing it."


    Please see my prior comments.
    Childress has NOT been in the HC business very long.
    He doesn't have the luxuryof experience that Almighty Grant had at the time he was making those decisions.
    How many years had the Vikings kicked jiggly butt consistantly for BG to acquire that philosophy?

    Experience makes the difference.
    NO ONE questioned Bud Grant.
    Plenty of people question first year head coaches.
    Therefore, kick some jiggly butt in TC.



    [/quote]

    Your post doesn't make sense. You say childress hasn't been an HC for very long, ok true. But Bud Grant has been, and thus his statement would support Childress', and therefore Childress being fairly new should not matter...
    [/quote]

    Being new and soft = Wade Phillips = meow.
    Being new and hard gets peoples attention.
    It does matter, not only in establishing authority, but also getting your systems in place.

    [/quote]

    Which is kind of what Childress did. Tough training camp first year. A little easier since.

    BTW here is something from SID, the book Sid wrote about his life as a sports reporter.

    " Steckel ordered the players to report to the Mankato training facility earlier and tried to turn it into a concentration camp.
    The players were pounding on one another everyday in practice. This was exactly the oppposite of Grant's approach.
    The Vikings were always the last team to report to training camp."

    I stand by Bud.
    [/quote]

    Not a fair comparison. Steckel was never given a fair shot to turn the team around.They fired him after the first year so there was no time for him to totally implement his changes. Those hard hitting practices may have toughened the team up so that they didn't roll over in the big games when the going got tough like they did under Grant.
    [/quote]

    I'm glad I wasn't wasting my time. A response like this just shows that I should stand by Bud more often!
    [/quote]

    Grant never said his practices were easy & the team was practicing in shorts & no pads with little hitting. He said his [s]practices[/s] training camps were shorter in duration. Especially if the players came into camp in shape.

    There's a huge difference between the way Steckel ran his camp & the way Childress does. Grant was somewhere in the middle.
    [/quote]

    Grant was somewhere in the middle? I have read almost everything I can find on the Vikings under Grant and now Childress. Can you please educate me with some evidence that shows Grant was in the middle?

    Grant didn't say his practices were shorter in duration. He said that training camp was shorter.
    He said this.And this is a direct quote.

    "we will have a short training camp, get on with our business and then we would be saving something for the end of the season rather than trying to expend it all in training camp ."




    'the team was practicing in shorts & no pads with little hitting'

    Where does that come from again?

    I believe this team was flat at the end of last year when it counted against Washington.
    I believe they are surging in December this year. I attribute that , in part, to an easier training camp.

    [/quote]

    I meant to say his training camps were shorter in duration. I was referring to that specific quote when I made my post.

    There were many articles written during camp this year where the team practiced in shorts or without pads. From what I recall, there weren't that many full pads, hitting & contact scrimmages practices. Many were light & less physical

    We had our share of injuries this year despite the light practices. Rice, Berrian, Jackson, M-Will, Boulware, Farwell, Mitchell, Radovich & others were injured in preseason. Can you say with assurance that lack of conditioning or physical contact didn't play a part in any of their injuries?

    From what I recall of Bud's camps, they were short, but there were still physical practices & scrimmages involved.

    I attribute our surge in the last part of the season to fielding a better team overall, the schedule we faced, the healthiness of those teams, the better play of Jackson the last week & a half, the return of M-Will, players coming in & stepping up when they replace an injured player & good depth at many positions that allow substitutions throughout the games without jeopardizing the quality of play.
    [/quote]

    I must have a short memory. I don't recall saying anything about a relationship between injury and a light training camp. Marrdro believes it is so.
    I doubt there is a relationship.

    A tough training camp doesn't have much effect on how strong your bones or ligaments are. In fact, I believe Berrian got his turf toe during training camp.And Rice was injured against the Colts right in front of myself and Uffda, when he twisted awkwardly trying to make a sideline catch. The twisting seemed to have more to do with it than anything.
    So no. I can not say with assurance that lack of conditioning or physical contact didn't play a part in any of their injuries?
    Just like you can't say with assurance it did.

    And the late season improvement may be due to those factors you listed.

    It is obvious that Bud felt a shorter training camp would leave something in the tank for the late season.

    I agree with that theory.

    You don't.

    [/quote]

    Nope, neither of us can say with assurance either way.

    And you are wrong on your last statement. I do believe that a shorter camp is better. The discussion wasn't about how long or short the camp was, but how much physical contact there was.

    It is what is being done during that shorter camp that I disagree with. I believe it should involve a little more physical contact than the light stuff Childress was running.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

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