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  1. #11
    petrodemos's Avatar
    petrodemos is offline Asst. Coach
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    Re: Offensive Line Examined

    Lets be fair Del, what was Alexanders average to the Left....

    hutchinson to right guard could be a move like putting punto at 3rd (nice catch Punto! too bad twins lost, back on topic) i am all for it, childress said himself the running is too Left-sided. and putting guys in bewteen studs would make them more comfortable and have our entire line play better.

    Maybe in the off week childress makes this move, give the line 2 weeks to work on it. im looking forward to this move

  2. #12
    Del Rio Guest

    Re: Offensive Line Examined

    "petrodemos" wrote:
    Lets be fair Del, what was Alexanders average to the Left....

    hutchinson to right guard could be a move like putting punto at 3rd (nice catch Punto! too bad twins lost, back on topic) i am all for it, childress said himself the running is too Left-sided. and putting guys in bewteen studs would make them more comfortable and have our entire line play better.

    Maybe in the off week childress makes this move, give the line 2 weeks to work on it. im looking forward to this move
    That is a fair request but after sifting through the play by play for our last four games and writing down where each run went and for what gain, there is no way in hell that I am going to do that for a whole season for the Hawks. If I wanted to assume the importance of Hutch to their run game I would assume that the stink they raised about him leaving is proof and their inability to run this season now that he is gone is proof.

    It's fallacy but his impact on our line is not. It's a fact that when the ball passes his gap we gain yards. That cannot be said for the rest of our line.

  3. #13
    V-Unit's Avatar
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    Re: Offensive Line Examined

    Two weeks ago we were talking about how RBs get better as the game goes on, so why the fuck did we given Taylor the ball only ten times on Sunday? We gave up on the run for no reason at all and it cost us dearly.

    Don't blame this loss on the O-Line, blame it on PLAYCALLING.

    We never gave our line a chance to wear down a defense like it can.
    "I hate when threads are destroyed by facts and logic."
    - Prophet


    Thanks Josdin!

  4. #14
    Prophet Guest

    Re: Offensive Line Examined

    "Del" wrote:
    The Offensive Line Examined


    Alright I’ll take a shot at this. It seems lately that there are a whole lot of people upset with our offensive line. You hear things like 100 million dollar line, and gripes about McKinney and Hutch and their lack of production. This is pretty unfair and after I looked at the stands not only is it unfair it is wrong.

    We have run the ball 38 times to the left for 157 yards and that is an average of 4.1 yards per carry. That is by far the best result we have had on the running game. The most impressive results are the runs to the left between guard and tackle. The least impressive stat is the run to the right between the Guard and the Center.

    Going left from right along the line:

    McKinney: Big and powerful tackle. They are few and far between and he is one of the better ones. His weakness is over compensating for the fast DE and giving up the inside.

    Hutchinson: Powerful run blocker. Our stats support this with our two most productive running gaps coming off his hind quarters. The gap between him and McKinney (Left B Gap) comes in at #1, the gap between him and M. Birk (Left A Gap) comes in at #2. How many penalties have been called on Hutch? ZERO.

    Birk: Tenured veteran who is having a rough start. He is tied with A. Hicks for offensive penalties. He is smart but his play is not showing that this season so far.

    Hicks: Comes from a Childress system. Run blocking is not his strong point, he is however a solid pass blocker. My biggest concern with him is he has had too many penalties….bad ones. Penalties that take us from the red zone to field goal land.

    Johnson: The big question mark. Marcus Johnson. He got some heat from last game for the penalty on the 2 point conversion. This guy is pretty solid for the most part. He has been doing a fairly good job with his foot work. He could go either way.


    Alright now that you survived that this is what I think is happening and what I think should happen. I think the left side of the line is solid despite what you hear the fans saying. Statistically that is a fact. The right side of the line is making huge mistakes with penalties and requiring constant help from TE’s and FB’s. This makes the team weaker as a whole and it makes Birks job that much harder. I think they are simply trying to hard, the talent is not there. Childress as a coach cannot abandon the run to the right or the middle right. Because then they will Q off on our run game. Hell they probably already do because of the required help to Marcus Johnson. When Childress says he doesn’t always give him help. I think that is because he can’t if he did it would be a flag to the defense that the play is going right.

    What I would like to see happen is move Steve Hutchinson to right Guard. I have said it before and I will say it again guard is arguably the easiest position in all of football. Move Steve to the right and let his skill balance out the line. He is good on help defense and penalties. Distribute the talent equally relieving pressure from Matt Birk and Marcus Johnson.

    I would not feel comfortable moving our most talented tackle to the right side of the line leaving Brad Johnsons left side open to attack. It’s the only move that could balance the line and improve it as a whole. The only question is could Hutch handle the move? The playbook should be the same only the reads flip flopped. That is the only 100 million dollar question on this line.
    It's about time you put something like this together this year.
    I learned four things from this post (and not necessarily in this order):

    1) Nice analysis on the breakdown of the runs
    2) The left side isn't doing as badly as I thought.
    3) You're full of shit.

    I like the idea of moving Hutchinson to right guard.
    Kind of.
    Sure, Hicks has played the left side, but Hutchinson makes up for some of McKinnies slowness too.
    It seems like a recipe for starting Bollinger to me.
    Sure, the line would be more equally distributed with talent, but DE and LBs would be walking through the left side and putting a hurtin' on Mr. Fragile Bones.
    Brad's blind side protection outweighs the need to evenly distribute talent on the line given that we have an interim QB that needs to survive for at least a year.

    One of the reasons the left side is blocking for an average of 4.1 yds/carry is because the O is running to both sides of the line and leaving Johnson and Hicks out to dry on some plays.
    Like you mentioned, they can't be sending the TEs and FBs to help with every run to the right.
    I know you said that Hicks and Johnson don't have the talent and are overplaying their abilities, but I'm not so sure about that.
    Sure, the left side is more established and where McKinnie lacks prowess he makes up for it with size.
    Hutchinson is an animal and Birk has seen better days based on his play so far this year. Like you alluded to, he has to spend energy covering for the ineptness of the right side, the weakest link.

    The weakest link, which is no surprise to anybody that is semi-conscious, is the right side of the line.
    They need to calm down and the coaches need them to capitalize on their individual strenghts, not try to be something that they aren't.
    You mentioned Hicks was a good pass blocker, but not a good run blocker.
    Johnson appears to be ok at both and not stand out at either.
    Maybe some chop blocking or something that makes these guys buy some time and whatever else it takes for them to utilize their strengths.

    I know a few people have already said in this thread that they wouldn't make the switch until a game or two down the road just to see what happens.
    I say screw making the switch.
    The Vikings have a covey of coaches and Wilf has deep pockets, if need be, buy a coach for Hicks and one for Johnson and coach the bastards at an individual level and hire another guy whose only job is to pull their heads out of their asses.


    There are some faults on the right side, but they can be coached into being solid.
    It's the coaching staff's job to capitalize on their strengths.
    Childress must know what Hicks' strenghts are, I'm not sure what Johnson's are, but he appears to be coachable.

    The bottom-line is that Childress said his #1 goal was to solidify the lines.
    The lines, at a minimum are average and they need to be brought to the next level through coaching.
    Screw putting a bandaid on the problem by switching Hutchinson to the right side.
    Fix the problem.

    And the fourth point:

    4) I'm also full of shit.

  5. #15
    cajunvike's Avatar
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    Re: Offensive Line Examined

    "Prophet" wrote:
    "Del" wrote:
    The Offensive Line Examined


    Alright I’ll take a shot at this. It seems lately that there are a whole lot of people upset with our offensive line. You hear things like 100 million dollar line, and gripes about McKinney and Hutch and their lack of production. This is pretty unfair and after I looked at the stands not only is it unfair it is wrong.

    We have run the ball 38 times to the left for 157 yards and that is an average of 4.1 yards per carry. That is by far the best result we have had on the running game. The most impressive results are the runs to the left between guard and tackle. The least impressive stat is the run to the right between the Guard and the Center.

    Going left from right along the line:

    McKinney: Big and powerful tackle. They are few and far between and he is one of the better ones. His weakness is over compensating for the fast DE and giving up the inside.

    Hutchinson: Powerful run blocker. Our stats support this with our two most productive running gaps coming off his hind quarters. The gap between him and McKinney (Left B Gap) comes in at #1, the gap between him and M. Birk (Left A Gap) comes in at #2. How many penalties have been called on Hutch? ZERO.

    Birk: Tenured veteran who is having a rough start. He is tied with A. Hicks for offensive penalties. He is smart but his play is not showing that this season so far.

    Hicks: Comes from a Childress system. Run blocking is not his strong point, he is however a solid pass blocker. My biggest concern with him is he has had too many penalties….bad ones. Penalties that take us from the red zone to field goal land.

    Johnson: The big question mark. Marcus Johnson. He got some heat from last game for the penalty on the 2 point conversion. This guy is pretty solid for the most part. He has been doing a fairly good job with his foot work. He could go either way.


    Alright now that you survived that this is what I think is happening and what I think should happen. I think the left side of the line is solid despite what you hear the fans saying. Statistically that is a fact. The right side of the line is making huge mistakes with penalties and requiring constant help from TE’s and FB’s. This makes the team weaker as a whole and it makes Birks job that much harder. I think they are simply trying to hard, the talent is not there. Childress as a coach cannot abandon the run to the right or the middle right. Because then they will Q off on our run game. Hell they probably already do because of the required help to Marcus Johnson. When Childress says he doesn’t always give him help. I think that is because he can’t if he did it would be a flag to the defense that the play is going right.

    What I would like to see happen is move Steve Hutchinson to right Guard. I have said it before and I will say it again guard is arguably the easiest position in all of football. Move Steve to the right and let his skill balance out the line. He is good on help defense and penalties. Distribute the talent equally relieving pressure from Matt Birk and Marcus Johnson.

    I would not feel comfortable moving our most talented tackle to the right side of the line leaving Brad Johnsons left side open to attack. It’s the only move that could balance the line and improve it as a whole. The only question is could Hutch handle the move? The playbook should be the same only the reads flip flopped. That is the only 100 million dollar question on this line.
    It's about time you put something like this together this year.
    I learned four things from this post (and not necessarily in this order):

    1) Nice analysis on the breakdown of the runs
    2) The left side isn't doing as badly as I thought.
    3) You're full of pooh.

    I like the idea of moving Hutchinson to right guard.
    Kind of.
    Sure, Hicks has played the left side, but Hutchinson makes up for some of McKinnies slowness too.
    It seems like a recipe for starting Bollinger to me.
    Sure, the line would be more equally distributed with talent, but DE and LBs would be walking through the left side and putting a hurtin' on Mr. Fragile Bones.
    Brad's blind side protection outweighs the need to evenly distribute talent on the line given that we have an interim QB that needs to survive for at least a year.

    One of the reasons the left side is blocking for an average of 4.1 yds/carry is because the O is running to both sides of the line and leaving Johnson and Hicks out to dry on some plays.
    Like you mentioned, they can't be sending the TEs and FBs to help with every run to the right.
    I know you said that Hicks and Johnson don't have the talent and are overplaying their abilities, but I'm not so sure about that.
    Sure, the left side is more established and where McKinnie lacks prowess he makes up for it with size.
    Hutchinson is an animal and Birk has seen better days based on his play so far this year. Like you alluded to, he has to spend energy covering for the ineptness of the right side, the weakest link.

    The weakest link, which is no surprise to anybody that is semi-conscious, is the right side of the line.
    They need to calm down and the coaches need them to capitalize on their individual strenghts, not try to be something that they aren't.
    You mentioned Hicks was a good pass blocker, but not a good run blocker.
    Johnson appears to be ok at both and not stand out at either.
    Maybe some chop blocking or something that makes these guys buy some time and whatever else it takes for them to utilize their strengths.

    I know a few people have already said in this thread that they wouldn't make the switch until a game or two down the road just to see what happens.
    I say screw making the switch.
    The Vikings have a covey of coaches and Wilf has deep pockets, if need be, buy a coach for Hicks and one for Johnson and coach the bastards at an individual level and hire another guy whose only job is to pull their heads out of their asses.


    There are some faults on the right side, but they can be coached into being solid.
    It's the coaching staff's job to capitalize on their strengths.
    Childress must know what Hicks' strenghts are, I'm not sure what Johnson's are, but he appears to be coachable.

    The bottom-line is that Childress said his #1 goal was to solidify the lines.
    The lines, at a minimum are average and they need to be brought to the next level through coaching.
    Screw putting a bandaid on the problem by switching Hutchinson to the right side.
    Fix the problem.

    And the fourth point:

    4) I'm also full of pooh.
    I learned ONE thing...but then I already knew that:

    BOTH Del and Prophet are full of pooh!
    BANNED OR DEAD...I'LL TAKE EITHER ONE

  6. #16
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
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    Re: Offensive Line Examined

    I am not too impressed with the line coach. They may not have as much talent on the right side as they do on the left, but the OL coach has a responsibility to teach them their job and instill discipline so they don't commit penalties. If they are not smart enough to learn not to commit panalties, then send them packing and get someone who is.


  7. #17
    ItalianStallion's Avatar
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    Re: Offensive Line Examined

    Personally I don't care what our average is, If we rush 15 times for 2 yards and under, it doesn't do us much good to get a 20 yard run here and there, because we'll be punting it 9/10 times on those drives.
    We need to consistently get over 4 yards a carry, not AVERAGE 4 yards a carry.


    I m like a Ja Rule poster, cause I'm off the wall.

  8. #18
    Del Rio Guest

    Re: Offensive Line Examined

    "ItalianStallion" wrote:
    Personally I don't care what our average is, If we rush 15 times for 2 yards and under, it doesn't do us much good to get a 20 yard run here and there, because we'll be punting it 9/10 times on those drives.
    We need to consistently get over 4 yards a carry, not AVERAGE 4 yards a carry.
    If that was our average for the whole game I would agree. But it isn't it is an average of the left side of the line only. It's a fact that when the ball is ran to the left we gain over 3.5 yards more often then not.

    It's not -2, -3, 0, then a 20 yard run.

    Look at last games plays middle -1 middle 0 middle -4

    Your looking at 2nd and 11 2nd and 10 2nd and 14, not acceptable. The average is important. If that stat doesn't tingle your ball hairs then focus on the yards over 150 of C. Taylors rushing yards have come from the left.

    You can hire a coach for each guy lol, if you think that will help.

  9. #19
    Zeus's Avatar
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    Re: Offensive Line Examined

    "Prophet" wrote:
    And the fourth point:

    4) I'm also full of pooh.
    Of that there is no doubt.

    =Z=

    Thanks to Josdin for the awesome sig!

  10. #20
    MississippiViking is offline Training Camp
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    Re: Offensive Line Examined

    Hey this is my first post!!
    I wouldn't pay almost 100 million dollars to get 4.1 yards per rush.
    That is ridiculous!!!
    I would however take a wait and see approach to changing anything.
    Remember This is a first year head coach; calling plays for the first time; An offensive line that is learning to play together;
    A new running back and a new fullback.
    I don't care what anyone says it will take time to gel.
    These guys have to get to the point of knowing what the other is going to do without thinking about it.
    This takes time.
    GO VIKINGS!!!

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