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  1. #21
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Off Line Actually Not Terrible At Allowing Pressur

    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1098595
    Quote Originally Posted by "singersp" #1098594
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1098528
    Also, the QB induced pressures were not broken down but I will say that I would believe they would be high for Brett since he was hobbled by injury from the beginning of the year and also hampered by not being in sync due to him not being in camp with the team.
    What injury was he hobbled from at the beginning of the season? He had the offseason surgery & his ankle didn't get re-injured until after the season started.

    The lack of Favre not being in sync due to him not being in camp with the team is Favres fault & no one elses. He has selfishly & purposely skipped out on training camp for several of his last NFL years.
    Nobody is arguing tha tlast bit, but you can tell just from watching he wasn't the same this year.

    He said his ankle was fine, but it wasn't. It was usable, but not like it was in 09.

    That, and his arm held him back this year. Our piss poor line and receiver play didn't help at all, but we can't completely let blame off him.

    It was a team effort to play that shitty last year. The ONLY players who seemed to show up each week was Peterson, Harvin, Kluwe, Longwell, Loeffler and Allen after about week 5. The rest was the textbook definition of inconsistent.
    What is so hard to grasp? A OL that grades out middle of the pack, that had 3 backups in at some point or another all year, isn't piss poor my friend.

    Does it have issue? Yes, all lines do, but seriously, piss poor? :dry:
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  2. #22
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    Re: Off Line Actually Not Terrible At Allowing Pressur

    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1098599
    I agree with Singer that the ankle wasn't an issue early, and that Favre was a turd for skipping TC...but I already said that last year...

    ...but I am dubious about the "QB invited pressure" element because it doesn't appear to take into account Receivers failing to create opportunities, or the fact that some plays take longer to develop than others.

    Let's face it, the problems are inter-related. Our Line couldn't keep pressure off, our receivers couldn't get open, and our QB's were forced to eat-it-or-run too many times....not including all the times they simply dumped it off to avoid a loss.

    Further, a lack of confidence in our line and receiver corps could lead to play calling that specifically featured shorter expectancy plays - like planned dump offs and quick hitches. These types of plays give the line a chance to look good, because they develop so fast that the pressure CAN'T get there.

    But it's all inter-related. We need a better line, we need better receivers, and we need a QB who can do more than "manage the game".

    Caine
    THERE IT IS.......A post from the Caine of old.

    Top shelf, top shelf indeed. Glad to have you back. Especially love the point about play calling my friend.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  3. #23
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    Re: Off Line Actually Not Terrible At Allowing Pressur

    Well, as part of their look at pass protection in the NFL in 2010, Pro Football Focus threw a couple more categories in the mix. They looked at what percentage of pressures from opposing defenses wound up turning into sacks, and how many blockers teams had a tendency to leave in on each play. Those three categories together combined to give PFF their 2010 Team Pass Protection Rankings.

    In what's going to come as a surprise to many. . .and I know it surprised the hell out of me. . .the Minnesota Vikings are in the top half of the league in these rankings, clocking in at thirteenth overall (actually, they're tied for eleventh with the New Orleans Saints and the Miami Dolphins, but PFF puts them at thirteen. . .I'm sure they have their reasons). They're even the second-best team in the NFC North in this category, according to Pro Football Focus. . .and the top team in the division isn't who you probably think it is.
    They might not be able to run block all that well, but there are plenty of worse units in pass protection than the Vikings’ offensive line. The real stories coming from the other guys. Along with his struggles in catching the ball, Adrian Peterson’s pass blocking skills leave you wanting – only one halfback finished with a worse rating in pass protection. At the other end of the spectrum, only one tight end finished with a higher rating than Jim Kleinsasser. The quarterbacks didn’t make anyone look better than they were.
    However, this leads me to my big question, and the big question that so many other people have about this offensive line. . .why in the hell can't this group run block worth a damn? You have a pair of 350-pound tackles on the outside, a future Hall of Famer at one guard spot, a mauler at the other guard spot, a guy like Klenisasser that basically acts like a third tackle when he's out there. . .is John Sullivan that overmatched most of the time, or has the scheme the past couple of years just been that terrible when it comes to run blocking? I mean, it makes Adrian Peterson's performance the past couple of years seem that much more amazing, doesn't it? Hopefully the addition of Jeff Davidson, the architect of some pretty powerful rushing offenses with the Carolina Panthers, can serve to remedy this.

    More From Pro Football Focus On The Vikings' Pass Protection

    I wonder if AD doesn't have something to do with the run blocking at times? Lets not forget how Theenimy always got down on him when it came to his technique (first two steps).

    In short, teams know he isn't going to go to the primary whole, so they just sit back and wait for the cutback, eliminating the big runs.

    And no Bleed, I'm not saying anything that might be misunderstood as sticking up for the OL. I'm just wondering thats all.
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  4. #24
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
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    Re: Off Line Actually Not Terrible At Allowing Pressur

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1098650
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1098528
    You missed this little nugget:
    So there you have our breakdown of who’s allowing the pressure. You’ll realize there’s a large percentage of pressure unaccounted for, and those are due to unblocked players that come free against roll outs or on overload blitzes, etc. Our goal here, though, is to show where the responsibility lies for all plays that can be attributed.
    Hopefully you understand how that omission skews the ratio.


    Also, the QB induced pressures were not broken down but I will say that I would believe they would be high for Brett since he was hobbled by injury from the beginning of the year and also hampered by not being in sync due to him not being in camp with the team.

    I would be willing to wager that TJ and Webb certainly bumped up that ratio though and made it higher than it was with Brett on the field even in his hobbled condition.


    In the end though, posting an article that states our OL is nothing better than average is no vindication for their play. It just reinforces what we have been saying in that the OL is a liability and needs to be upgraded to be considered elite and capable of being a consistent title contender.
    So are you talking about the starters only or the backups who also contributed to the stat, that has them about middle of the pack by the way.

    I wonder were they would have been rated if the starters would have played the whole season mixed in with the small issue of protecting a broke dick QB who shouldn't have been on the field to begin with.

    On a side note, don't have time to get the numbers myself, but are you saying that TJ and Joe had enough reps between them to really scew the QB "Self Inflicted Wound"?
    It's a team game. Every team has to rely on the backups stepping in and doing their jobs during the season so it is a cop out to use reserves as an excuse for lack of production or execution.

    Quick question:

    How many backups did Green Bay have to rely on compared to the vikings last season and how did both teams seasons end again? When the staff can do what GB did with injuries and win a SB through it all you can get back to me on it.

  5. #25
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    Re: Off Line Actually Not Terrible At Allowing Pressur

    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1098659
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1098650
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1098528
    You missed this little nugget:
    So there you have our breakdown of who’s allowing the pressure. You’ll realize there’s a large percentage of pressure unaccounted for, and those are due to unblocked players that come free against roll outs or on overload blitzes, etc. Our goal here, though, is to show where the responsibility lies for all plays that can be attributed.
    Hopefully you understand how that omission skews the ratio.


    Also, the QB induced pressures were not broken down but I will say that I would believe they would be high for Brett since he was hobbled by injury from the beginning of the year and also hampered by not being in sync due to him not being in camp with the team.

    I would be willing to wager that TJ and Webb certainly bumped up that ratio though and made it higher than it was with Brett on the field even in his hobbled condition.


    In the end though, posting an article that states our OL is nothing better than average is no vindication for their play. It just reinforces what we have been saying in that the OL is a liability and needs to be upgraded to be considered elite and capable of being a consistent title contender.
    So are you talking about the starters only or the backups who also contributed to the stat, that has them about middle of the pack by the way.

    I wonder were they would have been rated if the starters would have played the whole season mixed in with the small issue of protecting a broke dick QB who shouldn't have been on the field to begin with.

    On a side note, don't have time to get the numbers myself, but are you saying that TJ and Joe had enough reps between them to really scew the QB "Self Inflicted Wound"?
    It's a team game. Every team has to rely on the backups stepping in and doing their jobs during the season so it is a cop out to use reserves as an excuse for lack of production or execution.

    Quick question:

    How many backups did Green Bay have to rely on compared to the vikings last season and how did both teams seasons end again? When the staff can do what GB did with injuries and win a SB through it all you can get back to me on it.
    Outstanding post, reflecting superior insight. :P

  6. #26
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    Re: Off Line Actually Not Terrible At Allowing Pressur

    I think we can all agree the O-line could have been better.

    I'll bang this drum one more time. Ryan Cook may be a free agent and I think we should sign him again. I would like to see him compete with Sullivan at center this year. I think he wins that battle.

    I would like to kick loadholdt insde to compete with Herrera for right guard. The loser of that competition becomes the utility lineman; probably Herrera.

    Bring in one of several free agent right tackles available this year.

    I realize this is all my pipe dream, but the one thing I really hope they do is give Cook some time at center.
    “What takes a quarterback to the next level is not arm strength or mobility or any of that stuff. It’s the ability to play on critical downs. Manage third downs, or red zones or four-minute or two-minute situations"
    Dilfer

  7. #27
    ejmat is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Off Line Actually Not Terrible At Allowing Pressur

    I winder if there is a stat that says why a QB holds onto the ball. Because I seem to recall from memory many times where the QB held onto the ball because he was being pressured right away. Yes there were a few times where Favre held the ball too long. However there were also times where he held the ball because he had no choice. I'm sure the PFF stats don't take that tangeable into consideration.

    There are many reasons for being pressured. Just one more reason I don't look at stats to tell the entire story. Why don't we put things into perspective? I think we all can agree the more stats to go by the better measure you can get. So if we are going to go by Brett Favre and holding the ball too long let's look at his 20 year career. I doubt there is anything out there that could substantiate Favre as holding the ball too long unless there was pressure. The guy reads defenses better than most QBs that has ever played the game. There is only so much one can do.

    Let's face it. The OL sucked last year. The QB had pressure very quickly on a lot of passing plays during the season. There is also the "stat" of how many times our RBs were hit in the backfield or how many times there was actually a decent hole to run through.

  8. #28
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    Re: Off Line Actually Not Terrible At Allowing Pressur

    Quote Originally Posted by "jargomcfargo" #1098723
    I think we can all agree the O-line could have been better.

    I'll bang this drum one more time. Ryan Cook may be a free agent and I think we should sign him again. I would like to see him compete with Sullivan at center this year. I think he wins that battle.

    I would like to kick loadholdt insde to compete with Herrera for right guard. The loser of that competition becomes the utility lineman; probably Herrera.

    Bring in one of several free agent right tackles available this year.

    I realize this is all my pipe dream, but the one thing I really hope they do is give Cook some time at center.
    You are not alone in wanting to see Cook compete at Center.

  9. #29
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Off Line Actually Not Terrible At Allowing Pressur

    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1098659
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1098650
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1098528
    You missed this little nugget:
    So there you have our breakdown of who’s allowing the pressure. You’ll realize there’s a large percentage of pressure unaccounted for, and those are due to unblocked players that come free against roll outs or on overload blitzes, etc. Our goal here, though, is to show where the responsibility lies for all plays that can be attributed.
    Hopefully you understand how that omission skews the ratio.


    Also, the QB induced pressures were not broken down but I will say that I would believe they would be high for Brett since he was hobbled by injury from the beginning of the year and also hampered by not being in sync due to him not being in camp with the team.

    I would be willing to wager that TJ and Webb certainly bumped up that ratio though and made it higher than it was with Brett on the field even in his hobbled condition.


    In the end though, posting an article that states our OL is nothing better than average is no vindication for their play. It just reinforces what we have been saying in that the OL is a liability and needs to be upgraded to be considered elite and capable of being a consistent title contender.
    So are you talking about the starters only or the backups who also contributed to the stat, that has them about middle of the pack by the way.

    I wonder were they would have been rated if the starters would have played the whole season mixed in with the small issue of protecting a broke dick QB who shouldn't have been on the field to begin with.

    On a side note, don't have time to get the numbers myself, but are you saying that TJ and Joe had enough reps between them to really scew the QB "Self Inflicted Wound"?
    It's a team game. Every team has to rely on the backups stepping in and doing their jobs during the season so it is a cop out to use reserves as an excuse for lack of production or execution.

    Quick question:

    How many backups did Green Bay have to rely on compared to the vikings last season and how did both teams seasons end again? When the staff can do what GB did with injuries and win a SB through it all you can get back to me on it.
    Go back in history, wasn't to long ago I was talking about that. Truth is, the PUKERS had issues and injuries, but not like we did.

    Not to mention, they had a QB that could carry the OL instead of one that made it look like shit.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  10. #30
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    Re: Off Line Actually Not Terrible At Allowing Pressur

    Quote Originally Posted by "ejmat" #1098724
    I winder if there is a stat that says why a QB holds onto the ball. Because I seem to recall from memory many times where the QB held onto the ball because he was being pressured right away. Yes there were a few times where Favre held the ball too long. However there were also times where he held the ball because he had no choice. I'm sure the PFF stats don't take that tangeable into consideration.

    There are many reasons for being pressured. Just one more reason I don't look at stats to tell the entire story. Why don't we put things into perspective? I think we all can agree the more stats to go by the better measure you can get. So if we are going to go by Brett Favre and holding the ball too long let's look at his 20 year career. I doubt there is anything out there that could substantiate Favre as holding the ball too long unless there was pressure. The guy reads defenses better than most QBs that has ever played the game. There is only so much one can do.

    Let's face it. The OL sucked last year. The QB had pressure very quickly on a lot of passing plays during the season. There is also the "stat" of how many times our RBs were hit in the backfield or how many times there was actually a decent hole to run through.
    Although I am sure you put some thought into that post, to me it looks like nothing more than your attempt at covering up for the old man again.

    Sigh.....

    In the end, the page that put up the stats doesn't have a feeling one way or another (OL or Noodle) when they made thier assesments. I for one would assume that their opinion is a bit more inline with the truth of what happened instead of a guy on PPO who loves the Noodle.

    (You know I'm just hacking a bit). :P

    Go back my friend. Start with the NFC throw into the endzone against the 49rs, then again at the throw that ended our dreams in the 09 NFCC game and then alot of them this year. He (your bubba) opted to wait on the deep guy instead of hitting the guy standing short on the sideline.

    Can he read a defense? Sure.....Did he sometimes play with his own agenda in mind? Sure as well. Anyone who looks at this objectively (as the stats guy did) will agree with me on that my friend. Even you I think.
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