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  1. #11
    Caine's Avatar
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    Re: Off Line Actually Not Terrible At Allowing Pressur

    I agree with Singer that the ankle wasn't an issue early, and that Favre was a turd for skipping TC...but I already said that last year...

    ...but I am dubious about the "QB invited pressure" element because it doesn't appear to take into account Receivers failing to create opportunities, or the fact that some plays take longer to develop than others.

    Let's face it, the problems are inter-related. Our Line couldn't keep pressure off, our receivers couldn't get open, and our QB's were forced to eat-it-or-run too many times....not including all the times they simply dumped it off to avoid a loss.

    Further, a lack of confidence in our line and receiver corps could lead to play calling that specifically featured shorter expectancy plays - like planned dump offs and quick hitches. These types of plays give the line a chance to look good, because they develop so fast that the pressure CAN'T get there.

    But it's all inter-related. We need a better line, we need better receivers, and we need a QB who can do more than "manage the game".

    Caine

  2. #12
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    Re: Off Line Actually Not Terrible At Allowing Pressur

    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1098599
    I agree with Singer that the ankle wasn't an issue early, and that Favre was a turd for skipping TC...but I already said that last year...

    ...but I am dubious about the "QB invited pressure" element because it doesn't appear to take into account Receivers failing to create opportunities, or the fact that some plays take longer to develop than others.

    Let's face it, the problems are inter-related. Our Line couldn't keep pressure off, our receivers couldn't get open, and our QB's were forced to eat-it-or-run too many times....not including all the times they simply dumped it off to avoid a loss.

    Further, a lack of confidence in our line and receiver corps could lead to play calling that specifically featured shorter expectancy plays - like planned dump offs and quick hitches. These types of plays give the line a chance to look good, because they develop so fast that the pressure CAN'T get there.

    But it's all inter-related. We need a better line, we need better receivers, and we need a QB who can do more than "manage the game".

    Caine
    But other than that we're pretty solid on offense :laugh:

    Negative Nancy my ass.

  3. #13
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    Re: Off Line Actually Not Terrible At Allowing Pressur

    Quote Originally Posted by "singersp" #1098594
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1098528
    Also, the QB induced pressures were not broken down but I will say that I would believe they would be high for Brett since he was hobbled by injury from the beginning of the year and also hampered by not being in sync due to him not being in camp with the team.
    What injury was he hobbled from at the beginning of the season? He had the offseason surgery & his ankle didn't get re-injured until after the season started.

    The lack of Favre not being in sync due to him not being in camp with the team is Favres fault & no one elses. He has selfishly & purposely skipped out on training camp for several of his last NFL years.
    If you think he had fully recovered from the NFCCG and the off season surgery you need to pay more attention but I would never expect you to acknowledge it due to your love fest for TJ and all. On the other hand I agree totally that he should have had the surgery earlier and have his ass in camp. Actually I will go one step farther and restate what I said before last season that he should have stayed retired and the team should have never brought him back. Not to say that he wasn't a better option than TJ but if he didn't give a shit enough to be here then we didn't need him.

  4. #14
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    Re: Off Line Actually Not Terrible At Allowing Pressur

    Quote Originally Posted by "tastywaves" #1098603
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1098599
    I agree with Singer that the ankle wasn't an issue early, and that Favre was a turd for skipping TC...but I already said that last year...

    ...but I am dubious about the "QB invited pressure" element because it doesn't appear to take into account Receivers failing to create opportunities, or the fact that some plays take longer to develop than others.

    Let's face it, the problems are inter-related. Our Line couldn't keep pressure off, our receivers couldn't get open, and our QB's were forced to eat-it-or-run too many times....not including all the times they simply dumped it off to avoid a loss.

    Further, a lack of confidence in our line and receiver corps could lead to play calling that specifically featured shorter expectancy plays - like planned dump offs and quick hitches. These types of plays give the line a chance to look good, because they develop so fast that the pressure CAN'T get there.

    But it's all inter-related. We need a better line, we need better receivers, and we need a QB who can do more than "manage the game".

    Caine
    But other than that we're pretty solid on offense :laugh:

    Negative Nancy my ass.
    I'd be most concerned about the offensive line and the new QB. The NFC north is going to be a tough place to be as a rookie QB, imo. Detroit's defensive front scares me, and my team has been very busy re-tooling it's offensive line for good reason-(thank GOD- FINALLY). Chicago is outstanding, and my Pack can certainly bring the heat... Dom Capers knows his stuff (except when he 3 man rushes, but I digress) I said it even after your great 2009 season, your o-line looked like a weakness to me, Marr called me friggin' crazy-or words to that effect- I think it's a more pronounced vulnerability than ever before... I'm sorry, that's what I see, and in the context of what's happening in the rest of the division, coupled with a rook QB, it has the real potential to be ugly.

    The Vikes have a few too many holes to address everything, and I don't think getting more/better wide receivers would help much in comparison to improvement of the o-line. Your receiving corps is pretty damn good in comparison to your trench. I think those that advocate having an OUTSTANDING offensive line are "hitting the nail on the head"- again, especially in our division. Tom Brady and his level of protection was an excellent example.

    AD and the threat of AD certainly helps your offensive line play, but that is not a perfect solution by any means. The problem with reliance upon a running game to hide what I perceive as a weakness evidences itself when you get behind in a game or when the down/distance takes him effectively out of the scheme or play... especially in a passing league with so many high-powered offenses that can quick-strike against you. I don't think that PFF can accurately gauge the effect of that factor, and in some ways when you go ahead and factor in his impact, a strong argument can be made that your offensive line is in fact a bigger liability than what the numbers might suggest. I think one's own eyes are a better judge of that than the mere statistics.

    IMO (pretty much a rehash/re-emphasis of what I said a year ago)

  5. #15
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    Re: Off Line Actually Not Terrible At Allowing Pressur

    Quote Originally Posted by "dfosterf" #1098613
    Quote Originally Posted by "tastywaves" #1098603
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1098599
    I agree with Singer that the ankle wasn't an issue early, and that Favre was a turd for skipping TC...but I already said that last year...

    ...but I am dubious about the "QB invited pressure" element because it doesn't appear to take into account Receivers failing to create opportunities, or the fact that some plays take longer to develop than others.

    Let's face it, the problems are inter-related. Our Line couldn't keep pressure off, our receivers couldn't get open, and our QB's were forced to eat-it-or-run too many times....not including all the times they simply dumped it off to avoid a loss.

    Further, a lack of confidence in our line and receiver corps could lead to play calling that specifically featured shorter expectancy plays - like planned dump offs and quick hitches. These types of plays give the line a chance to look good, because they develop so fast that the pressure CAN'T get there.

    But it's all inter-related. We need a better line, we need better receivers, and we need a QB who can do more than "manage the game".

    Caine
    But other than that we're pretty solid on offense :laugh:

    Negative Nancy my ass.
    I'd be most concerned about the offensive line and the new QB. The NFC north is going to be a tough place to be as a rookie QB, imo. Detroit's defensive front scares me, and my team has been very busy re-tooling it's offensive line for good reason-(thank GOD- FINALLY). Chicago is outstanding, and my Pack can certainly bring the heat... Dom Capers knows his stuff (except when he 3 man rushes, but I digress) I said it even after your great 2009 season, your o-line looked like a weakness to me, Marr called me friggin' crazy-or words to that effect- I think it's a more pronounced vulnerability than ever before... I'm sorry, that's what I see, and in the context of what's happening in the rest of the division, coupled with a rook QB, it has the real potential to be ugly.

    The Vikes have a few too many holes to address everything, and I don't think getting more/better wide receivers would help much in comparison to improvement of the o-line. Your receiving corps is pretty damn good in comparison to your trench. I think those that advocate having an OUTSTANDING offensive line are "hitting the nail on the head"- again, especially in our division. Tom Brady and his level of protection was an excellent example.

    AD and the threat of AD certainly helps your offensive line play, but that is not a perfect solution by any means. The problem with reliance upon a running game to hide what I perceive as a weakness evidences itself when you get behind in a game or when the down/distance takes him effectively out of the scheme or play... especially in a passing league with so many high-powered offenses that can quick-strike against you. I don't think that PFF can accurately gauge the effect of that factor, and in some ways when you go ahead and factor in his impact, a strong argument can be made that your offensive line is in fact a bigger liability than what the numbers might suggest. I think one's own eyes are a better judge of that than the mere statistics.

    IMO (pretty much a rehash/re-emphasis of what I said a year ago)
    I would worry about your team more than ours. Last season debacle was due to coming our of the gates slow because of our Qbs poor play. Then key injuries started to pile up. When healthy, we are still the best team in the NFC North. The change in playbook, addition of Ponder with no training camp will hamper us. However, our young backups got valuable playing time last season, something similar happened to your backups the year before. I expecct us to struggle but still compete in the NFC north.

    Detroit's line doesn't phase me, until they put on the pads, it's all talk.

  6. #16
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    Re: Off Line Actually Not Terrible At Allowing Pressur

    [quote="kevoncox" #1098614]
    Quote Originally Posted by "dfosterf" #1098613
    Quote Originally Posted by "tastywaves" #1098603
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1098599
    I agree with Singer that the ankle wasn't an issue early, and that Favre was a turd for skipping TC...but I already said that last year...

    ...but I am dubious about the "QB invited pressure" element because it doesn't appear to take into account Receivers failing to create opportunities, or the fact that some plays take longer to develop than others.

    Let's face it, the problems are inter-related. Our Line couldn't keep pressure off, our receivers couldn't get open, and our QB's were forced to eat-it-or-run too many times....not including all the times they simply dumped it off to avoid a loss.

    Further, a lack of confidence in our line and receiver corps could lead to play calling that specifically featured shorter expectancy plays - like planned dump offs and quick hitches. These types of plays give the line a chance to look good, because they develop so fast that the pressure CAN'T get there.

    But it's all inter-related. We need a better line, we need better receivers, and we need a QB who can do more than "manage the game".

    Caine
    But other than that we're pretty solid on offense :laugh:

    Negative Nancy my ass.
    I'd be most concerned about the offensive line and the new QB. The NFC north is going to be a tough place to be as a rookie QB, imo. Detroit's defensive front scares me, and my team has been very busy re-tooling it's offensive line for good reason-(thank GOD- FINALLY). Chicago is outstanding, and my Pack can certainly bring the heat... Dom Capers knows his stuff (except when he 3 man rushes, but I digress) I said it even after your great 2009 season, your o-line looked like a weakness to me, Marr called me friggin' crazy-or words to that effect- I think it's a more pronounced vulnerability than ever before... I'm sorry, that's what I see, and in the context of what's happening in the rest of the division, coupled with a rook QB, it has the real potential to be ugly.

    The Vikes have a few too many holes to address everything, and I don't think getting more/better wide receivers would help much in comparison to improvement of the o-line. Your receiving corps is pretty damn good in comparison to your trench. I think those that advocate having an OUTSTANDING offensive line are "hitting the nail on the head"- again, especially in our division. Tom Brady and his level of protection was an excellent example.

    AD and the threat of AD certainly helps your offensive line play, but that is not a perfect solution by any means. The problem with reliance upon a running game to hide what I perceive as a weakness evidences itself when you get behind in a game or when the down/distance takes him effectively out of the scheme or play... especially in a passing league with so many high-powered offenses that can quick-strike against you. I don't think that PFF can accurately gauge the effect of that factor, and in some ways when you go ahead and factor in his impact, a strong argument can be made that your offensive line is in fact a bigger liability than what the numbers might suggest. I think one's own eyes are a better judge of that than the mere statistics.

    IMO (pretty much a rehash/re-emphasis of what I said a year ago)
    Kevincox wrote:
    I would worry about your team more than ours...
    Heavy alcoholic consumption this early in the morning cannot be good for you.

    :P

  7. #17
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    Re: Off Line Actually Not Terrible At Allowing Pressur

    LMAO you two.

    I do think it is safe to say that the division is arguably as strong as it has ever been in terms of talent across all 4 teams.

    This will be such an interesting year if there is one just from the standpoint of seeing id Detroit is actually putting together a contender, if Green Bay can maintain the level of play they reached at the end of last season, if the Bears can recover from the defeat by the Packers at the end of last year when Cutler bowed out and if the Vikings can retool and contend or whether we are destined for a rebuild and a stint at the bottom of the cellar for a few years.

    One way or the other I am excited to see the new staff and how they use and develop the talent on the roster.

  8. #18
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    Re: Off Line Actually Not Terrible At Allowing Pressur

    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1098611
    Quote Originally Posted by "singersp" #1098594
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1098528
    Also, the QB induced pressures were not broken down but I will say that I would believe they would be high for Brett since he was hobbled by injury from the beginning of the year and also hampered by not being in sync due to him not being in camp with the team.
    What injury was he hobbled from at the beginning of the season? He had the offseason surgery & his ankle didn't get re-injured until after the season started.

    The lack of Favre not being in sync due to him not being in camp with the team is Favres fault & no one elses. He has selfishly & purposely skipped out on training camp for several of his last NFL years.
    If you think he had fully recovered from the NFCCG and the off season surgery you need to pay more attention but I would never expect you to acknowledge it due to your love fest for TJ and all. On the other hand I agree totally that he should have had the surgery earlier and have his ass in camp. Actually I will go one step farther and restate what I said before last season that he should have stayed retired and the team should have never brought him back. Not to say that he wasn't a better option than TJ but if he didn't give a shit enough to be here then we didn't need him.
    First off, don't have a love fest with TJ. My stance has always been to play him for the entire year in 2008 to see what you got, rather than knee jerk & put him on the bench & keep him on the back burner for three more years wondering if he'll pan out or not. IMO, that set us back 2 years because as long as he was on the roster, the Vikings made no attempt to draft another QB early in the draft.

    His ankle may not have been 100%, but it was close to it. It was far from the hobbling you make it out to be.

    He was physically out of shape last year. At least in 2009, he actually had some resemblance of a workout regime to get himself into shape, but last year he basically crawled off his tractor to play after Wilf tossed millions more in cash his way.

    I agree that he should have had his surgery earlier not only last year, but in 2009, but then in both cases, he would have not had a viable excuse to miss training camp. Make no mistake about it, the rehab time overlapping training camp both years was not coincidental. IMO, it was just as intentional as was his retirement waffling up until the time training camp was over his past 4-5 years in GB.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  9. #19
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    Re: Off Line Actually Not Terrible At Allowing Pressur

    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1098528
    You missed this little nugget:
    So there you have our breakdown of who’s allowing the pressure. You’ll realize there’s a large percentage of pressure unaccounted for, and those are due to unblocked players that come free against roll outs or on overload blitzes, etc. Our goal here, though, is to show where the responsibility lies for all plays that can be attributed.
    Hopefully you understand how that omission skews the ratio.


    Also, the QB induced pressures were not broken down but I will say that I would believe they would be high for Brett since he was hobbled by injury from the beginning of the year and also hampered by not being in sync due to him not being in camp with the team.

    I would be willing to wager that TJ and Webb certainly bumped up that ratio though and made it higher than it was with Brett on the field even in his hobbled condition.


    In the end though, posting an article that states our OL is nothing better than average is no vindication for their play. It just reinforces what we have been saying in that the OL is a liability and needs to be upgraded to be considered elite and capable of being a consistent title contender.
    So are you talking about the starters only or the backups who also contributed to the stat, that has them about middle of the pack by the way.

    I wonder were they would have been rated if the starters would have played the whole season mixed in with the small issue of protecting a broke dick QB who shouldn't have been on the field to begin with.

    On a side note, don't have time to get the numbers myself, but are you saying that TJ and Joe had enough reps between them to really scew the QB "Self Inflicted Wound"?
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  10. #20
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    Re: Off Line Actually Not Terrible At Allowing Pressur

    Quote Originally Posted by "kevoncox" #1098540
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1098523
    According to PFF's charting, the Vikings had 597 passing snaps in 2010. Of those 597 passing snaps, there was pressure on the quarterback on 35.01% of those snaps. . .if that sounds like an excessive number, it's not. It actually puts the Vikings as slightly better than league average.
    According to PFF, the Minnesota Vikings had a cumulative total of 2990 offensive line snaps on passing plays in 2010, and on those snaps, the offensive line was responsible for 146 pressures allowed. So, the offensive line allowed pressure on 4.88% of the snaps that they were on the field for in passing situations. Again, this is right around the league average, placing the Vikings at fifteenth overall in that category
    There were 308 snaps, according to PFF, where Vikings' backs and tight ends or receivers stayed in to block, and they were responsible for 20 pressures on the quarterback, or 6.49% of the time.
    ." To put it bluntly, these are quarterback pressures that are caused due to the quarterback holding on to the ball too long. . .or, as PFF puts it, "the quarterback holding on to the ball too long and inviting pressure upon himself." The Vikings. . .well, the Vikings didn't fare so well in this category. And by "didn't fare so well," what I mean is "finished dead last in the NFL." So, between Brett Favre, Tarvaris Jackson, and Joe Webb, at least some of the pressure that the Vikings' offense allowed was due to quarterbacks holding on to the football too long.
    Vikings' Offensive Line Actually Not Terrible At Allowing Pressure

    Hmmmmmmmmmmm, hasn't some yutz been on here chanting something about charting games and how the OL is at or above average all the while some on here have been saying they suck.

    I think, however, that that same yutz was suprised at how well the backs and TE's graded out. He had them alot worse than these cats did.
    That Yutz was me....
    I would like to point out that I saw our pocket routinely demolished with no place to step up into. Maynot count as a pressure but it damn well destroyed the play. Funny that wasn't a problem when ole' Birk was here. Long Peterson runs? Seems like they have disappeared as well.
    LOL, well, I guesss I can agree that you and I have agreed on this subject, but the yutz I was referring to was me.
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