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  1. #21
    dcboardr41 is offline Team Alumni
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    Re: Not a pro/anti Tjack thread but an honest question

    QB Rating >80
    Completion % > 60
    INTs <14
    TDs > 20

    and a playoff birth, theres no reason that we should miss the playoffs

    Pissing on the Pack since 08'

  2. #22
    midgensa's Avatar
    midgensa is offline Jersey Retired Free Kick Specialist 3 Champion
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    Re: Not a pro/anti Tjack thread but an honest question

    "singersp" wrote:
    "midgensa" wrote:
    "kevoncox" wrote:
    "Formo" wrote:
    I'm in the same boat as midgensa.

    I'm a supporter of T-Jack.
    And will continue to be until he proves he's NOT an NFL starter.
    How bad does he need to play for me to believe that?
    Pretty bad and consistently bad.
    More INTs than TDs, if he were a turnover king (Daunte anybody?), completion <%50, QB rating of SUCK, etc.

    I will say that the Vikings still need another offensive playmaker.
    Not the level of Adrian, but a star none the less.
    I don't care if he is a TE or WR, but in order to FULLY get the most of T-Jack, I think he needs a big playmaking receiver.
    Until then, we are just ranking a part of Jackson.

    And if he doesn't pan out, I LOVE the Booty pick.
    I think he'll be an extremely serviceable QB, and with a few serviceable years from T-Jack, Booty will get all the time he needs and then some to absorb Chilly's playbook.
    I don't understand the comparison of Dante to Jackson. Dante has done more in half a season that TJ has done his whole career. I know many of you hate Dante but atleast give the guy the respect he deserves. He was, possible is a great QB. At this point Jackson has to hop he can accomplish what Dante has.
    Yeah, I definitely agree. I think Daunte clearly gets a bad rap around here. He was not bad ... and is probably (by the numbers at least) the second best QB in Vikes history.
    He definitely was a little turnover prone, he had 35 lost fumbles and 86 INTs in his 80 starts in Minnesota. That accounts for 1.5 turnovers per game. Which is a little high ... the Pro Bowl QBs in 2007 accounted for 1.01 oer game. He did however account for 164 TDs in those 80 starts. Of course he accounted for 32 of those turnovers in ONE season in 2002.
    All in all ... T-Jack putting up numbers like Culpepper would be a god send. If T-Jack can account for more than TWO TDs a game then we will be damn tough to beat. The problem is if he doesn't win better than Culpepper ... then the numbers won't matter. C-Pep was a very sub-par 38-42 while in a Vikings uniform.
    Don't you mean "The Vikings were a very sub-par 38-42 while C-Pep was in a Vikings uniform?"

    Our defense is what cost us many of those games during those years. Despite our high powered offense, our defense, prevent as it was, managed to give up more points than we scored.

    Go back & look at the scores of those 42 games we lost. In 15 of them we put up between 22 to 38 points & still lost the game.
    Yes ... and in four of the wins we scored 20 points or less ... but we still won ... so they count. And in 26 of those loses we failed to score more than 20 points, so the offense clearly did not do its job. It is a team game ... and in those games Daunte clearly was a reason we were not up to task.
    Look, my whole post was that Daunte takes an unfair bashing around her, BUT ... no matter what the scores were, no matter who the team was, no matter who the coaches were ... he simply was not a winner and has never really shown a reason to believe otherwise.
    He had a knack for making late mistakes, rarely made late drives of any importance and was flustered by defenses all too often. Coaches and quarterbacks (whether fairly or not) live and die by winning in this league ... and Culpepper simply showed no reason to think he was a winner or a team leader on a regular basis.

  3. #23
    Mr Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: Not a pro/anti Tjack thread but an honest question

    As far as people talking about what kind of numbers Jackson needs to put up, I don't care. If he completes passes when it matters, and get our offense in position to score, he doesn't have to light up the stat line. Get us as close as possible and give the ball to Peterson. The only stat that matters is wins.


    1998-2004: It was the defense's fault. Period. We were a top 3 offense every year, but had an owner who didn't spend money on defense. Ted Cottrell is not a bad defensive coordinator, but looked like shit with the talent we had him coaching.

    Let's take a look at some of the great groups of guys he had to coach:
    LB Greg Biekert
    S Jack Brewer
    S Corey Chavous
    LB Chris Claiborne
    LB Henri Crockett
    LB E. J. Henderson
    DT Chris Hovan
    CB Ken Irvin
    S Ron Israel
    DE Lance Johnstone
    CB Rushen Jones
    CB Eric Kelly
    DT Billy Lyon
    DE Kenny Mixon
    LB Nick Rogers
    DT





    Fred Robbins
    S Brian Russell
    DE Talance Sawyer
    LB Raonall Smith
    CB Denard Walker
    DE Chuck Wiley
    CB Brian Williams
    DT Kevin Williams























    Brian Russell









    Corey Chavous












    Chris Claiborne







    Greg Biekert









    *E. J. Henderson

    Brian Williams



    Kenny Mixon *Kevin Williams
    Chris Hovan
    Lance Johnstone











    Ken Irvin





    *= Rookie

    I know EJ wasn't the starter, but he appeared in all 16 games, as did 4 other people, so it seemed like a revolving door at OLB, but I really didn't pay as close of attention at the time as I do now, I was only 13 years old, so don't expect total accuracy on this post.

    Now look at who was on that defense: Chris Claiborne two years later he's out of the NFL, Greg Biekert 10th season retired afterwards, Lance Johnstone , Ken Irvin, Kenny Mixon played another season with us before his NFL career was over, Chris Hovan one year wonder, even Corey Chavous he was really nothing special in coverage, I know in 2003 he had 8 INTs but so did Brian Russel, neither of these guys have had more than 3 in a season since 2003, in fact Brian Russel has less interceptions in his other 5 NFL season's combined than he did with us in 2003.



    My point is, look at the talent at hand. Two rookies in Kevin Williams and EJ Henderson(who really did nothing his rookie year, but having him in the starting spot helps my argument) and a second year cornerback Brian Williams. Everyone else was either out of the NFL within the next couple of years, or traded and are now doing nothing with other teams. Even the backups were awful and went on to do nothing.

    Compare that to our defense now:
























    Madieu Williams




    Darren Sharper















    Chad Greenway





    EJ Henderson






    Ben Leber

    Cedric Griffin





    Jared Allen

    Kevin Williams

    Pat Williams

    Salt/Pepper







    Antoine Winfield





    Every single position on the field is better, by a lot, except for #2 Corner, but Griffin's not too shabby IMO.

    Our defense was considered our major weakness in years past, and now is our overwhelming strength, despite our deceptive pass defense numbers, which are going to plummet this year might I add.

    With improvement on the offensive line, and consistent quarterback play, I don't see this team as a stoppable force.







  4. #24
    ejmat is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Not a pro/anti Tjack thread but an honest question

    "midgensa" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:
    "midgensa" wrote:
    "kevoncox" wrote:
    "Formo" wrote:
    I'm in the same boat as midgensa.

    I'm a supporter of T-Jack.
    And will continue to be until he proves he's NOT an NFL starter.
    How bad does he need to play for me to believe that?
    Pretty bad and consistently bad.
    More INTs than TDs, if he were a turnover king (Daunte anybody?), completion <%50, QB rating of SUCK, etc.

    I will say that the Vikings still need another offensive playmaker.
    Not the level of Adrian, but a star none the less.
    I don't care if he is a TE or WR, but in order to FULLY get the most of T-Jack, I think he needs a big playmaking receiver.
    Until then, we are just ranking a part of Jackson.

    And if he doesn't pan out, I LOVE the Booty pick.
    I think he'll be an extremely serviceable QB, and with a few serviceable years from T-Jack, Booty will get all the time he needs and then some to absorb Chilly's playbook.
    I don't understand the comparison of Dante to Jackson. Dante has done more in half a season that TJ has done his whole career. I know many of you hate Dante but atleast give the guy the respect he deserves. He was, possible is a great QB. At this point Jackson has to hop he can accomplish what Dante has.
    Yeah, I definitely agree. I think Daunte clearly gets a bad rap around here. He was not bad ... and is probably (by the numbers at least) the second best QB in Vikes history.
    He definitely was a little turnover prone, he had 35 lost fumbles and 86 INTs in his 80 starts in Minnesota. That accounts for 1.5 turnovers per game. Which is a little high ... the Pro Bowl QBs in 2007 accounted for 1.01 oer game. He did however account for 164 TDs in those 80 starts. Of course he accounted for 32 of those turnovers in ONE season in 2002.
    All in all ... T-Jack putting up numbers like Culpepper would be a god send. If T-Jack can account for more than TWO TDs a game then we will be damn tough to beat. The problem is if he doesn't win better than Culpepper ... then the numbers won't matter. C-Pep was a very sub-par 38-42 while in a Vikings uniform.
    Don't you mean "The Vikings were a very sub-par 38-42 while C-Pep was in a Vikings uniform?"

    Our defense is what cost us many of those games during those years. Despite our high powered offense, our defense, prevent as it was, managed to give up more points than we scored.

    Go back & look at the scores of those 42 games we lost. In 15 of them we put up between 22 to 38 points & still lost the game.
    Yes ... and in four of the wins we scored 20 points or less ... but we still won ... so they count. And in 26 of those loses we failed to score more than 20 points, so the offense clearly did not do its job. It is a team game ... and in those games Daunte clearly was a reason we were not up to task.
    Look, my whole post was that Daunte takes an unfair bashing around her, BUT ... no matter what the scores were, no matter who the team was, no matter who the coaches were ... he simply was not a winner and has never really shown a reason to believe otherwise.
    He had a knack for making late mistakes, rarely made late drives of any importance and was flustered by defenses all too often. Coaches and quarterbacks (whether fairly or not) live and die by winning in this league ... and Culpepper simply showed no reason to think he was a winner or a team leader on a regular basis.
    This is exactly my point.
    I agree that we scored a lot of points in some games and the defense let the offense down while Pep was here.
    However, my point is when the game was on the line he didn't do what it took to win on many occasions.
    He very rarely led the team to come back games as most elite QBs do.

    I'll be honest.
    I want a guy that can give me average numbers but when the game is on the line have the capability to take over a game.
    TJ showed me he has the potential to do that .
    All we can do is wait and see what happens.

    As far as Pep is concerned he never learned how to do that consistently.
    He teased us with a lot of numbers and stats but when it was on the line, he wasn't that good.

  5. #25
    Formo's Avatar
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    Re: Not a pro/anti Tjack thread but an honest question

    "kevoncox" wrote:
    "Formo" wrote:
    I'm in the same boat as midgensa.

    I'm a supporter of T-Jack.
    And will continue to be until he proves he's NOT an NFL starter.
    How bad does he need to play for me to believe that?
    Pretty bad and consistently bad.
    More INTs than TDs, if he were a turnover king (Daunte anybody?), completion <%50, QB rating of SUCK, etc.

    I will say that the Vikings still need another offensive playmaker.
    Not the level of Adrian, but a star none the less.
    I don't care if he is a TE or WR, but in order to FULLY get the most of T-Jack, I think he needs a big playmaking receiver.
    Until then, we are just ranking a part of Jackson.

    And if he doesn't pan out, I LOVE the Booty pick.
    I think he'll be an extremely serviceable QB, and with a few serviceable years from T-Jack, Booty will get all the time he needs and then some to absorb Chilly's playbook.
    I don't understand the comparison of Dante to Jackson. Dante has done more in half a season that TJ has done his whole career. I know many of you hate Dante but atleast give the guy the respect he deserves. He was, possible is a great QB. At this point Jackson has to hop he can accomplish what Dante has.
    First off..
    I didn't compare Daunte to Jackson.

    Second..
    The reason I even MENTIONED Daunte was because he was turnover prone, and in order for me to stop drinkin' T-Jacks Kool-Aide would be if T-Jack started turning the ball over like Daunte did.


    And Lastly..
    I don't hate Daunte.
    He just wasn't a very good QB.
    He was great with Moss and the right coaching.
    Take both those away, and you have what he had in Oakland and Miami.
    Vegans are eating the rainforests. =(

  6. #26
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Re: Not a pro/anti Tjack thread but an honest question

    Looks like this has turned into a "I hate Dante" "I love Dante" thread.
    At least it isn't a "I hate TJ" "I love TJ" thread.
    ;D
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  7. #27
    VikingsTw is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Not a pro/anti Tjack thread but an honest question

    I won't get to heavy in the numbers, for one thing we run Childress's offense, he wants to throw short passes and run the football without stupid penalties and turnovers basically ball control. This year when evaluating Tarvaris I will look for consistency in health, turnovers, pocket pressence, reads, accuracy ext. Numbers will be a factor but we are not looking for a hero here in Minnesota, we shouldn't need Peyton's #'s to win football games,we have a different plan of how to win as an overall team. With Berrian, Rice, and others a year better in the offense I look for Tarvaris's TD's to near double. If Rice stays healthy there's no reason for him not to have 10 TD's.

    Morever I want to see Tarvaris stop trying to force things when there not there, our WR's prevented some INT's this year on horrible throws. Some INT's were dropped because he threw the ball so hard. I will look for improved decision making.

    Many things will hinder the #'s, so far we're yet to see just how good our WR's, TE's, OL and RB's will be this year. The better they play the easier Tarvaris's job will be, right know we definitley need to help a young guy out. Recently other units on offense have been just as inconsistent as the QB, or when one does the job the other fails to complete the picture. Consistency across the board will be key.


  8. #28
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Re: Not a pro/anti Tjack thread but an honest question

    "VikingsTw" wrote:
    I won't get to heavy in the numbers, for one thing we run Childress's offense, he wants to throw short passes and run the football without stupid penalties and turnovers basically ball control. This year when evaluating Tarvaris I will look for consistency in health, turnovers, pocket pressence, reads, accuracy ext. Numbers will be a factor but we are not looking for a hero here in Minnesota, we shouldn't need Peyton's #'s to win football games,we have a different plan of how to win as an overall team. With Berrian, Rice, and others a year better in the offense I look for Tarvaris's TD's to near double. If Rice stays healthy there's no reason for him not to have 10 TD's.

    Morever I want to see Tarvaris stop trying to force things when there not there, our WR's prevented some INT's this year on horrible throws. Some INT's were dropped because he threw the ball so hard. I will look for improved decision making.

    Many things will hinder the #'s, so far we're yet to see just how good our WR's, TE's, OL and RB's will be this year. The better they play the easier Tarvaris's job will be, right know we definitley need to help a young guy out. Recently other units on offense have been just as inconsistent as the QB, or when one does the job the other fails to complete the picture. Consistency across the board will be key.

    Top shelf my friend.
    Top shelf indeed.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  9. #29
    marstc09's Avatar
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    Re: Not a pro/anti Tjack thread but an honest question

    "VikingsTw" wrote:
    I won't get to heavy in the numbers, for one thing we run Childress's offense, he wants to throw short passes and run the football without stupid penalties and turnovers basically ball control. This year when evaluating Tarvaris I will look for consistency in health, turnovers, pocket pressence, reads, accuracy ext. Numbers will be a factor but we are not looking for a hero here in Minnesota, we shouldn't need Peyton's #'s to win football games,we have a different plan of how to win as an overall team. With Berrian, Rice, and others a year better in the offense I look for Tarvaris's TD's to near double. If Rice stays healthy there's no reason for him not to have 10 TD's.

    Morever I want to see Tarvaris stop trying to force things when there not there, our WR's prevented some INT's this year on horrible throws. Some INT's were dropped because he threw the ball so hard. I will look for improved decision making.

    Many things will hinder the #'s, so far we're yet to see just how good our WR's, TE's, OL and RB's will be this year. The better they play the easier Tarvaris's job will be, right know we definitley need to help a young guy out. Recently other units on offense have been just as inconsistent as the QB, or when one does the job the other fails to complete the picture. Consistency across the board will be key.

    Very true. During the Chargers game I saw Rice break up one that looked like it was intended for their CB.

  10. #30
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    Re: Not a pro/anti Tjack thread but an honest question

    "VikingsTw" wrote:
    I won't get to heavy in the numbers, for one thing we run Childress's offense, he wants to throw short passes and run the football without stupid penalties and turnovers basically ball control. This year when evaluating Tarvaris I will look for consistency in health, turnovers, pocket pressence, reads, accuracy ext. Numbers will be a factor but we are not looking for a hero here in Minnesota, we shouldn't need Peyton's #'s to win football games,we have a different plan of how to win as an overall team. With Berrian, Rice, and others a year better in the offense I look for Tarvaris's TD's to near double. If Rice stays healthy there's no reason for him not to have 10 TD's.

    Morever I want to see Tarvaris stop trying to force things when there not there, our WR's prevented some INT's this year on horrible throws. Some INT's were dropped because he threw the ball so hard. I will look for improved decision making.

    Many things will hinder the #'s, so far we're yet to see just how good our WR's, TE's, OL and RB's will be this year. The better they play the easier Tarvaris's job will be, right know we definitley need to help a young guy out. Recently other units on offense have been just as inconsistent as the QB, or when one does the job the other fails to complete the picture. Consistency across the board will be key.

    I agree...but I think that we will all see just that this season...TJack will come into the season with a much better understanding of the passing game and a better handle on what Childress wants him to do out there.
    Besides, he will be put in much better field position by the improvement of the Vikings defense and probably won't be under as much pressure to try to make plays himself.
    BANNED OR DEAD...I'LL TAKE EITHER ONE

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