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  1. #211
    Caine's Avatar
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    Re:Noodle or TJ Shiancoe says Vikings offense is same

    BloodyHorns82 wrote:
    V-Unit wrote:
    Caine wrote:
    BloodyHorns82 wrote:
    V-Unit wrote:

    Troy Williamson's first two years were better than Sidney Rice's. People easily forget how many people didn't want to give up on him.

    -V-
    Williamson was healthy his first two years...Sidney was not.

    Williamson had a QB coming off of an MVP worthy season, Sidney had Tjack.

    Apples and Oranges.
    Williamson had Culpepper in '05. And, worse, he had "Meltdown year" Culpepper. Remember, '05 was the year we got rid of Moss...you remember him, right? The guy who made Culpepper look like an NFL Pro Bowler?

    So, 7 crappy games into the '05 season, and Culpepper goes down and gets replaced with Brad Johnson.

    Yup, Troy had it MADE in '05... :S

    Sadly, the truth is that Culpepper and Johnson in '05 were probably better than Jackson in '07...but not by much.

    I'd say it's still apples to apples.

    Caine
    We should have assumed that they would be willing to create just as many excuses for Sidney as they did for TJ, and as they did for Williamson when he was in Minnesota. There is a name for this phenomena:

    Purple Glasses.

    -V-
    I think your making some pretty big assumptions by saying "they" were making excuses for all of those players. Who the fuck are "they"?

    My guess is some people made excuses for Tjack and not Williamson, some for Rice and not Tjack, etc...sure there are some out there that love any and everything purple but lets not generalize everyone into that group.
    They made him do that...they're like that...

    Caine

  2. #212
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    Re:Noodle or TJ Shiancoe says Vikings offense is same

    Caine wrote:
    BloodyHorns82 wrote:
    V-Unit wrote:
    Caine wrote:
    BloodyHorns82 wrote:
    V-Unit wrote:

    Troy Williamson's first two years were better than Sidney Rice's. People easily forget how many people didn't want to give up on him.

    -V-
    Williamson was healthy his first two years...Sidney was not.

    Williamson had a QB coming off of an MVP worthy season, Sidney had Tjack.

    Apples and Oranges.
    Williamson had Culpepper in '05. And, worse, he had "Meltdown year" Culpepper. Remember, '05 was the year we got rid of Moss...you remember him, right? The guy who made Culpepper look like an NFL Pro Bowler?

    So, 7 crappy games into the '05 season, and Culpepper goes down and gets replaced with Brad Johnson.

    Yup, Troy had it MADE in '05... :S

    Sadly, the truth is that Culpepper and Johnson in '05 were probably better than Jackson in '07...but not by much.

    I'd say it's still apples to apples.

    Caine
    We should have assumed that they would be willing to create just as many excuses for Sidney as they did for TJ, and as they did for Williamson when he was in Minnesota. There is a name for this phenomena:

    Purple Glasses.

    -V-
    I think your making some pretty big assumptions by saying "they" were making excuses for all of those players. Who the fuck are "they"?

    My guess is some people made excuses for Tjack and not Williamson, some for Rice and not Tjack, etc...sure there are some out there that love any and everything purple but lets not generalize everyone into that group.
    They made him do that...they're like that...

    Caine
    I was trying to post an argument earlier...but than I realized I happened to agree with what was being said...so I deleted and went this route.

  3. #213
    ndnorseman is offline Pro-Bowler
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    Re:Noodle or TJ Shiancoe says Vikings offense is same

    So...given a choice, who on here would take Williamson over Rice in a Fantasy Football League, regardless of who the QB is?

    My choice is Rice...in a friggin' heartbeat.

  4. #214
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    Re:Noodle or TJ Shiancoe says Vikings offense is same

    ndnorseman wrote:
    So...given a choice, who on here would take Williamson over Rice in a Fantasy Football League, regardless of who the QB is?

    My choice is Rice...in a friggin' heartbeat.
    To be fair you would have to say after both WRs first (or second) year stats, who would you take.

    Everybody drooled over TW's speed. TW was way more hyped than Sidney, although I suspect that was more as a result of the draft spot than anything else.

  5. #215
    Caine's Avatar
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    Re:Noodle or TJ Shiancoe says Vikings offense is same

    BloodyHorns82 wrote:
    ndnorseman wrote:
    So...given a choice, who on here would take Williamson over Rice in a Fantasy Football League, regardless of who the QB is?

    My choice is Rice...in a friggin' heartbeat.
    To be fair you would have to say after both WRs first (or second) year stats, who would you take.

    Everybody drooled over TW's speed. TW was way more hyped than Sidney, although I suspect that was more as a result of the draft spot than anything else.
    Actually, you have it backwards...TW was more hyped which lead to his draft spot.

    Sidney wasn't much hyped at all...and in truth only has one impressive season under his belt, and I happen to suspect that Favre had a lot to do with that.

    Also, while some will argue that Rice's "nagging injury" in '08 limited his effectiveness, I would state the opposite. My concern was mostly about his durability and how long it took him to recover...if that was truly what held him back.

    I've said this before, I'm not 100% sure that Rice is as good as last year indicates. I'd have to see a repeat - and without Favre as QB - in order to be sure of what Sidney really brings to the table.

    And I'm not trying to knock Sidney...I've just seen too many QBs/Receivers carry the other....like Moss/Culpepper. Or guys who excel in a certain system, or under specific conditions, then can't replicate that outside of those specific parameters.

    So, the question I have is, "Did Favre make Rice? Or is 83 catches something Rice can bring to any QB he plays with?"

    As for Williamson...I think the mental aspects of his failings killed him. I think he got caught in a poor situation - having an underdeveloped QB throwing to him - and mentally beat himself out of a job.

    Caine

    Caine

  6. #216
    ndnorseman is offline Pro-Bowler
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    Re:Noodle or TJ Shiancoe says Vikings offense is same

    Troy Williamson
    Receiving Stats
    YEAR TEAM G REC YDS AVG LNG TD FD FUM LOST
    2005 MIN 14 24 372 15.5 56 2 18 0 0
    2006 MIN 14 37 455 12.3 46 0 22 0 0
    2007 MIN 11 18 240 13.3 60 1 9 0 0


    Sidney Rice
    Receiving Stats
    YEAR TEAM G REC YDS AVG LNG TD FD FUM LOST
    2007 MIN 13 31 396 12.8 60 4 25 0 0
    2008 MIN 13 15 141 9.4 23 4 12 0 0
    2009 MIN 16 83 1312 15.8 63 8 59 1 1

    Rice and Williamson shared the field in '07 and had the same QBs throwing to them. Add to that, Rice was a fresh-faced rookie, while Williamson had 2 seasons under his belt, and Rice STILL outshined him by approx. 150 yards and 3 TDs.

    Granted, Williamson has NEVER had a QB like Favre throwing to him, but even if he did, he'd still have to manage to actually catch the ball. Rice has at least made the most of his opportunity. Looking at Williamson's production the last 2 years with the Jags (8 rec. 64 yds, 1 TD), I'll be shocked if he even plays in any games this year.

    Yep...still taking Rice over Williamson. To say that Rice has benefited (sp?) from Favre is kind of stating the obvious...but you can't deny the kid's own pure talent when you go back and look at some the spectacular catches he's made over the last few years. Matter of fact, I think he's growing into the kind of WR that benefits the guy throwing the ball to him.

    I guess we'll see in the post-Favre era.

    JMO

  7. #217
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    Re:Noodle or TJ Shiancoe says Vikings offense is same

    ndnorseman wrote:
    Troy Williamson
    Receiving Stats
    YEAR TEAM G REC YDS AVG LNG TD FD FUM LOST
    2005 MIN 14 24 372 15.5 56 2 18 0 0
    2006 MIN 14 37 455 12.3 46 0 22 0 0
    2007 MIN 11 18 240 13.3 60 1 9 0 0


    Sidney Rice
    Receiving Stats
    YEAR TEAM G REC YDS AVG LNG TD FD FUM LOST
    2007 MIN 13 31 396 12.8 60 4 25 0 0
    2008 MIN 13 15 141 9.4 23 4 12 0 0
    2009 MIN 16 83 1312 15.8 63 8 59 1 1

    Rice and Williamson shared the field in '07 and had the same QBs throwing to them. Add to that, Rice was a fresh-faced rookie, while Williamson had 2 seasons under his belt, and Rice STILL outshined him by approx. 150 yards and 3 TDs.

    Granted, Williamson has NEVER had a QB like Favre throwing to him, but even if he did, he'd still have to manage to actually catch the ball. Rice has at least made the most of his opportunity. Looking at Williamson's production the last 2 years with the Jags (8 rec. 64 yds, 1 TD), I'll be shocked if he even plays in any games this year.

    Yep...still taking Rice over Williamson. To say that Rice has benefited (sp?) from Favre is kind of stating the obvious...but you can't deny the kid's own pure talent when you go back and look at some the spectacular catches he's made over the last few years. Matter of fact, I think he's growing into the kind of WR that benefits the guy throwing the ball to him.

    I guess we'll see in the post-Favre era.

    JMO
    I really do hope you're right and that Rice simply turned it on because he was ready...I'm just not convinced of it yet. Again, no knock on Sidney intended.

    Caine

  8. #218
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    Re:Noodle or TJ Shiancoe says Vikings offense is same

    ndnorseman wrote:
    Troy Williamson
    Receiving Stats
    YEAR TEAM G REC YDS AVG LNG TD FD FUM LOST
    2005 MIN 14 24 372 15.5 56 2 18 0 0
    2006 MIN 14 37 455 12.3 46 0 22 0 0
    2007 MIN 11 18 240 13.3 60 1 9 0 0


    Sidney Rice
    Receiving Stats
    YEAR TEAM G REC YDS AVG LNG TD FD FUM LOST
    2007 MIN 13 31 396 12.8 60 4 25 0 0
    2008 MIN 13 15 141 9.4 23 4 12 0 0
    2009 MIN 16 83 1312 15.8 63 8 59 1 1

    Rice and Williamson shared the field in '07 and had the same QBs throwing to them. Add to that, Rice was a fresh-faced rookie, while Williamson had 2 seasons under his belt, and Rice STILL outshined him by approx. 150 yards and 3 TDs.

    Granted, Williamson has NEVER had a QB like Favre throwing to him, but even if he did, he'd still have to manage to actually catch the ball. Rice has at least made the most of his opportunity. Looking at Williamson's production the last 2 years with the Jags (8 rec. 64 yds, 1 TD), I'll be shocked if he even plays in any games this year.

    Yep...still taking Rice over Williamson. To say that Rice has benefited (sp?) from Favre is kind of stating the obvious...but you can't deny the kid's own pure talent when you go back and look at some the spectacular catches he's made over the last few years. Matter of fact, I think he's growing into the kind of WR that benefits the guy throwing the ball to him.

    I guess we'll see in the post-Favre era.

    JMO
    Good points.

    My guess is if Brett had been throwing to TW instead of Rice he would not have had the season he had statistically and the team wins would have been lower. Rice made some great catches last year that stretched the defenses and led to points and if you compare that to say the Denver game of TW's last year where the ball hit his stone hands and bounced off you can see how differently last year might have been if the two were switched.


    I'll take Rice too.

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